From sta296 at astradyne.co.uk Tue Dec 1 00:04:53 2009 From: sta296 at astradyne.co.uk (Tethys) Date: Tue, 01 Dec 2009 00:04:53 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] To encrypt or not to encrypt . . . at install time? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 30 Nov 2009 22:34:14 GMT." <87vdgrprq1.fsf@spindle.srvr.nix> References: <1259610955.17920.15.camel@Gecko.local> <20091130203744.GA1568@annexia.org> <87vdgrprq1.fsf@spindle.srvr.nix> Message-ID: <200912010004.nB104rwD001162@macbeth.astradyne.corp> -------- Nix writes: >(6) encrypted $HOME doesn't actually help if you're using your machine >most of the time it's turned on (which is quite common) or if your >attacker gets in via a vulnerability in e.g. the browser rather than >a network-facing daemon, in which case he *can* only get in if you >are using your machine and your $HOME is decrypted. Yes, but there's still an argument for multiple levels of encryption. Is that even still supported? In the old days, there was a filesystem called rubberhose that was explicitly designed to give plausible deniability. Does an equivalent exist today? Only the first level would be decrypted under normal use. Then if you want to access your more confidential information, you decrypt and mount that, do your work and then umount it again, so the attacker would need to get in during the (hopefully short) period of time where that filesystem was decrypted and mounted. Yes, I suppose in the real world, it would be mounted all the time. Sigh. Tet From S.Tohill at westminster.ac.uk Tue Dec 1 09:21:57 2009 From: S.Tohill at westminster.ac.uk (sean) Date: Tue, 01 Dec 2009 09:21:57 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] gllug meeting was Re: Forward of moderated message In-Reply-To: <20091127192548.GA4540@annexia.org> References: <4B0FC027.10200@chocabloc.net> <20091127192548.GA4540@annexia.org> Message-ID: <4B14E035.6000609@wmin.ac.uk> Richard Jones wrote: > On Fri, Nov 27, 2009 at 02:13:11PM +0000, Sean Tohill wrote: > >> p.s. would an all day, multi-stream gllug event be something we should >> look at? >> > > Yes, it's a shame that since David L Neil moved to the other side of > the earth, we haven't had any meetings. I have a talk or two I'm > willing to give, and I'm sure others do too. Can we organize > something for January? > > Rich. > > can we have some suggested dates and some possible speakers. i'll try to get something organised. who has access to the website? i'd like there to be some sessions to benefit students from the university, maybe in the morning. i was thinking of the following: some install help, including getting wireless working; something on bash; useful apps for programmers/developers; something on lamp; linux on a pen drive. these would probably be best done in a lab environment, perhaps 10-2. the lab is debian based, but probably mint or ubuntu are the distros the students use on laptops. the sessions would be open to anyone not just students. main talks in the afternoon. a toic of interest to our students. some lightening talks about jobs followed by a q&a session. it might be useful to have a few people talk about what they do at work, what skills they need, how they got into their career and perhaps job trends. then a short q&a panel. any volunteers? this would be useful to various people i suspect. john hearns offered a talk, or someone to do a talk and i've a bias towards parallel/high performance stuff, so it would be good to have that as one of the talks. any topics we should be looking at? we haven't had a virtualisation talk for a while, we have had some video editing but nothing music related, is there anyone who could do something in that area? suggestions, suggestions, suggestions. regards sean -- The University of Westminster is a charity and a company limited by guarantee. Registration number: 977818 England. Registered Office: 309 Regent Street, London W1B 2UW, UK. From danthegeekman at googlemail.com Tue Dec 1 09:32:01 2009 From: danthegeekman at googlemail.com (Dan) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2009 09:32:01 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] To encrypt or not to encrypt . . . at install time? In-Reply-To: <200912010004.nB104rwD001162@macbeth.astradyne.corp> References: <1259610955.17920.15.camel@Gecko.local> <20091130203744.GA1568@annexia.org> <87vdgrprq1.fsf@spindle.srvr.nix> <200912010004.nB104rwD001162@macbeth.astradyne.corp> Message-ID: <4e73d5ed0912010132i57a2d2aco272e553f825d14a1@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Dec 1, 2009 at 12:04 AM, Tethys wrote: > Yes, but there's still an argument for multiple levels of encryption. > Is that even still supported? In the old days, there was a filesystem > called rubberhose that was explicitly designed to give plausible > deniability. Does an equivalent exist today? Only the first level > would be decrypted under normal use. Then if you want to access your > more confidential information, you decrypt and mount that, do your > work and then umount it again, so the attacker would need to get in > during the (hopefully short) period of time where that filesystem > was decrypted and mounted. > > Tet > Truecrypt will allow hidden volumes. Works very well. http://www.truecrypt.org/docs/plausible-deniability On Monday 30 November 2009, Justin Perreault wrote: > It's much easier to do it at install time, but remember that you'll need to > enter the key for each encrypted partition each time the machine boots - I > have the /home partition on my laptop encrypted, but not the system itself (I > used to, but entering two keys was a PITA and then there were troubles when > it came time to use a boot disk for maintenance ...) There are ways of using just one password. With keyfiles stored on the first decrypted partition. http://www.howtoforge.com/automatically-unlock-luks-encrypted-drives-with-a-keyfile http://ubuntuforums.org/archive/index.php/t-837416.html Dan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.gllug.org.uk/pipermail/gllug/attachments/20091201/c8ee6e6e/attachment-0001.htm From rich at annexia.org Tue Dec 1 09:36:30 2009 From: rich at annexia.org (Richard Jones) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2009 09:36:30 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] gllug meeting was Re: Forward of moderated message In-Reply-To: <4B14E035.6000609@wmin.ac.uk> References: <4B0FC027.10200@chocabloc.net> <20091127192548.GA4540@annexia.org> <4B14E035.6000609@wmin.ac.uk> Message-ID: <20091201093630.GA20610@annexia.org> On Tue, Dec 01, 2009 at 09:21:57AM +0000, sean wrote: > i'd like there to be some sessions to benefit students from the > university, maybe in the morning. i was thinking of the following: > > some install help, including getting wireless working; > something on bash; > useful apps for programmers/developers; > something on lamp; > linux on a pen drive. I can help out in the morning if you want. > we haven't had a virtualisation talk for a while I can give a talk on the new virtualization features in Fedora 12. Rich. -- Richard Jones Red Hat From chrisbell at 3966.ukfsn.org Tue Dec 1 19:12:47 2009 From: chrisbell at 3966.ukfsn.org (Chris Bell) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2009 20:12:47 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Gllug] Ethernet switch recommendation In-Reply-To: <20091128123200.GA1432@annexia.org> Message-ID: On Sat 28 Nov, Richard Jones wrote: > > > My 4 port so-called "gigabit" Netgear switch is now down to 2 > fullyworking ports. It's rubbish anyway, since it slows down to 10 > Base-T speeds as soon as any non-standard traffic flows over it > (eg. multicast). > > So I'm looking for a 16 port, good quality, gigabit ethernet switch > which isn't consumer grade junk, and I'm prepared to spend a bit of > money on it too. What should I be looking for? > > Rich. > One thing you should be looking for is faulty connections on your local mains, including especially the earth connections, to make sure that you do not have large earth currents. Network connections should be fairly well protected, although they might be sensitive to spikes. -- Chris Bell www.chrisbell.org.uk (was www.overview.demon.co.uk) Microsoft sells you Windows ... Linux gives you the whole house. From narender.hooda at gmail.com Wed Dec 2 01:24:08 2009 From: narender.hooda at gmail.com (Narender) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2009 06:54:08 +0530 Subject: [Gllug] performance difference between a swap partition vs a swap file.>>>>> Message-ID: <253e13910912011724l4fc9ef1em71cc41993d969d02@mail.gmail.com> I have done a lot of research, but I do not have any real world experience so I'm hoping you can help me understand the real world differences in performance. The research tells me that if you create a swap file on an empty disk and on a OS using kernel 2.6 then the performance differences are minor, but that the swap partition is a slight favorite in terms of pure performance. Our Scenario: Raid 1 146GB partition 33GB Swap File created on / (Note: the swap file was created when the OS was built, so the hard drives were not full and they were very empty) Kernel 2.6 Best Regards N From narender.hooda at gmail.com Wed Dec 2 05:27:49 2009 From: narender.hooda at gmail.com (Narender) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2009 10:57:49 +0530 Subject: [Gllug] performance difference between a swap partition vs a swap file.>>>>> In-Reply-To: <253e13910912011724l4fc9ef1em71cc41993d969d02@mail.gmail.com> References: <253e13910912011724l4fc9ef1em71cc41993d969d02@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <253e13910912012127h6c8235efw60aeb8edfbc8ce88@mail.gmail.com> Could someone please guide me over this, which one is best --N On Wed, Dec 2, 2009 at 6:54 AM, Narender wrote: > I have done a lot of research, but I do not have any real world > experience so I'm hoping you can help me understand the real world > differences in performance. The research tells me that if you create a > swap file on an empty disk and on a OS using kernel 2.6 then the > performance differences are minor, but that the swap partition is a > slight favorite in terms of pure performance. > Our Scenario: > > Raid 1 146GB partition > 33GB Swap File created on / (Note: the swap file was created when the > OS was built, so the hard drives were not full and they were very > empty) > Kernel 2.6 > > > Best Regards > N > From sta296 at astradyne.co.uk Wed Dec 2 08:33:24 2009 From: sta296 at astradyne.co.uk (Tethys) Date: Wed, 02 Dec 2009 08:33:24 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] performance difference between a swap partition vs a swap file.>>>>> In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 02 Dec 2009 10:57:49 +0530." <253e13910912012127h6c8235efw60aeb8edfbc8ce88@mail.gmail.com> References: <253e13910912011724l4fc9ef1em71cc41993d969d02@mail.gmail.com> <253e13910912012127h6c8235efw60aeb8edfbc8ce88@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200912020833.nB28XOU3007557@leto.astradyne.corp> -------- Narender writes: >Could someone please guide me over this, which one is best If you need performance, you shouldn't be using swap. Worrying about which type of swap is faster is a pointless excercise. They're both glacially slow. Tet From dylan at dylan.me.uk Wed Dec 2 09:51:14 2009 From: dylan at dylan.me.uk (Dylan) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2009 09:51:14 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] performance difference between a swap partition vs a swap file.>>>>> In-Reply-To: <253e13910912011724l4fc9ef1em71cc41993d969d02@mail.gmail.com> References: <253e13910912011724l4fc9ef1em71cc41993d969d02@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200912020951.14876.dylan@dylan.me.uk> On Wednesday 02 December 2009, Narender wrote: > I have done a lot of research, but I do not have any real world > experience so I'm hoping you can help me understand the real world > differences in performance. The research tells me that if you create a > swap file on an empty disk and on a OS using kernel 2.6 then the > performance differences are minor, but that the swap partition is a > slight favorite in terms of pure performance. There's far more to it than just file vs. partition - is a swap partition on its own physical device? What filesystem is a swap file created on? Are the disks ide/sata/scsi/something else? etc. etc. And as Tethys says, if there's a practical need for more performance then you really shouldn't be looking at swap to get it! > Our Scenario: > > Raid 1 146GB partition > 33GB Swap File created on / (Note: the swap file was created when the > OS was built, so the hard drives were not full and they were very > empty) > Kernel 2.6 > > > Best Regards > N -- ? ?... but there is so much else behind what I say. It makes itself known to me so slowly, so incompletely! ...? ? From avismailinglistaccount at googlemail.com Wed Dec 2 10:12:58 2009 From: avismailinglistaccount at googlemail.com (Avi Greenbury) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2009 10:12:58 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] performance difference between a swap partition vs a swap file.>>>>> In-Reply-To: <253e13910912011724l4fc9ef1em71cc41993d969d02@mail.gmail.com> References: <253e13910912011724l4fc9ef1em71cc41993d969d02@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20091202101258.12438a7a@jup-linux2.SGL.GROUP> Narender wrote: > I have done a lot of research, but I do not have any real world > experience so I'm hoping you can help me understand the real world > differences in performance. The research tells me that if you create a > swap file on an empty disk and on a OS using kernel 2.6 then the > performance differences are minor, but that the swap partition is a > slight favorite in terms of pure performance. > Our Scenario: > From what I understand through various sources I can't recall: Swap files and swap partitions have very similar performance now Swap is sloooow Swap partitions were substantially 'better' than swap files on older filesystems, it appears newer filesystems have fewer overheads that're detrimental to swapping, Swap partitions were substantially better than swap files on older hardware, where the hard drives were more transparent about exactly what was where on the platters. especially as regards whether the 'first' partition on a disk is really the first one, and whether it's contiguous. -- Avi Greenbury http://aviswebsite.co.uk ;) http://aviswebsite.co.uk/asking-questions From oolon at ankh.org Wed Dec 2 10:18:37 2009 From: oolon at ankh.org (James Hawtin) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2009 10:18:37 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Ethernet switch recommendation In-Reply-To: References: <20091128123200.GA1432@annexia.org> Message-ID: <20091202101837.GA12830@pzat.meep.org> On Tue, Dec 01, 2009 at 08:12:47PM +0100, Chris Bell wrote: > One thing you should be looking for is faulty connections on your local > mains, including especially the earth connections, to make sure that you do > not have large earth currents. Network connections should be fairly well > protected, although they might be sensitive to spikes. > This is very good advice, we have terrible power quality in wood green which often makes cheaper switches crash (Cheap PSUs). I suggest you install spike arrestor, better still use a ups. James From steve at steve.org.uk Wed Dec 2 09:54:36 2009 From: steve at steve.org.uk (Steve Kemp) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2009 09:54:36 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] performance difference between a swap partition vs a swap file.>>>>> In-Reply-To: <200912020951.14876.dylan@dylan.me.uk> References: <253e13910912011724l4fc9ef1em71cc41993d969d02@mail.gmail.com> <200912020951.14876.dylan@dylan.me.uk> Message-ID: <20091202095436.GA18744@steve.org.uk> At Bytemark all our machines have been installed and configured with file-based swap for at least the past year. The previous block layer used to mean swap partitions were "better". But on the whole this advantage has disappeared these days, and when you've got a system performing so badly it is swapping in the first place all performance issues are irrelevant. Steve -- http://www.steve.org.uk/ From oolon at ankh.org Wed Dec 2 10:39:23 2009 From: oolon at ankh.org (James Hawtin) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2009 10:39:23 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] performance difference between a swap partition vs a swap file.>>>>> In-Reply-To: <253e13910912011724l4fc9ef1em71cc41993d969d02@mail.gmail.com> References: <253e13910912011724l4fc9ef1em71cc41993d969d02@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20091202103923.GB12830@pzat.meep.org> 33GB swap partition sounds insane, perhaps you have a very large amount of memory if that was the case you would want good performance, which 33GB of a single disk subsystem would not give you. Perhaps you have a very large tmpfs filesystem, in which case more swap would make sence otherwise. I setup all systems except Solid state drive ones which get NO swap. 1-2GB of swap. /tmp using tmpfs 1GB is size which then claws back the waste. Its nice to have a little swap, as it might be necessary to allocate as much memory as the size of an existing process when it forks. This can come from swap rather than real memory. But really using it should be avoided. As to File or Partition, Partition should be faster so long as its comming from the same disk subsystem, a filesystem over many devices might be faster. However so would many small swap partions on lots of devices, either way its VERY slow compared to memory. A filesystem as an overhead to it, partitulary a reference counting one, this is going to make it slower for swap than a native partition. In the old days a filesystem partition might make space as you can change it, these days with LVM its easy to change the size of partitions later. James From addw at phcomp.co.uk Wed Dec 2 10:40:11 2009 From: addw at phcomp.co.uk (Alain Williams) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2009 10:40:11 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] performance difference between a swap partition vs a swap file.>>>>> In-Reply-To: <20091202095436.GA18744@steve.org.uk> References: <253e13910912011724l4fc9ef1em71cc41993d969d02@mail.gmail.com> <200912020951.14876.dylan@dylan.me.uk> <20091202095436.GA18744@steve.org.uk> Message-ID: <20091202104011.GB13063@phcomp.co.uk> On Wed, Dec 02, 2009 at 09:54:36AM +0000, Steve Kemp wrote: > At Bytemark all our machines have been installed and configured > with file-based swap for at least the past year. What file system type do these swap files live in ? > The previous block layer used to mean swap partitions were > "better". But on the whole this advantage has disappeared > these days, and when you've got a system performing so badly > it is swapping in the first place all performance issues are > irrelevant. +1 Swap is good for things like 'getty' that are started and hardly ever used. It is also good for when something goes wrong and starts eating RAM, gives your system a chance to live until you sort things out. -- Alain Williams Linux/GNU Consultant - Mail systems, Web sites, Networking, Programmer, IT Lecturer. +44 (0) 787 668 0256 http://www.phcomp.co.uk/ Parliament Hill Computers Ltd. Registration Information: http://www.phcomp.co.uk/contact.php Past chairman of UKUUG: http://www.ukuug.org/ #include From chrisbell at 3966.ukfsn.org Wed Dec 2 10:43:55 2009 From: chrisbell at 3966.ukfsn.org (Chris Bell) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2009 11:43:55 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Gllug] SFP (was: Re: Ethernet switch recommendation) In-Reply-To: <20091129180723.GA18691@annexia.org> Message-ID: On Sun 29 Nov, Richard Jones wrote: > > > Thanks John - maybe if I need networking in my shed then :-) > If your shed is on the same mains supply as the rest of the building there are plug-in mains adapters that send carrier via the local mains. The carrier is blocked by the electricity meter. -- Chris Bell www.chrisbell.org.uk (was www.overview.demon.co.uk) Microsoft sells you Windows ... Linux gives you the whole house. From addw at phcomp.co.uk Wed Dec 2 10:46:17 2009 From: addw at phcomp.co.uk (Alain Williams) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2009 10:46:17 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] performance difference between a swap partition vs a swap file.>>>>> In-Reply-To: <20091202103923.GB12830@pzat.meep.org> References: <253e13910912011724l4fc9ef1em71cc41993d969d02@mail.gmail.com> <20091202103923.GB12830@pzat.meep.org> Message-ID: <20091202104617.GC13063@phcomp.co.uk> On Wed, Dec 02, 2009 at 10:39:23AM +0000, James Hawtin wrote: > 33GB swap partition sounds insane, perhaps you have a very large amount of I still hear people saying ''I allocate as much swap as I have RAM''. I have never understood this rule of thumb, it *was* probably OK for the very first install of a new system of which you have no clue how much resources it is going to use because you have never seen it before. These days for most commercial systems: allocate 2GB of RAM - just in case things go wrong, the price of 2GB disk is tiny, the cost of running out of RAM is high. You should not expect to see much swap used at all (just things like getty live there). If you are using a lot of swap then your system is prob running like a dog and you should get more RAM or split the load onto another machine. -- Alain Williams Linux/GNU Consultant - Mail systems, Web sites, Networking, Programmer, IT Lecturer. +44 (0) 787 668 0256 http://www.phcomp.co.uk/ Parliament Hill Computers Ltd. Registration Information: http://www.phcomp.co.uk/contact.php Past chairman of UKUUG: http://www.ukuug.org/ #include From alex at alexsmith.org Wed Dec 2 10:47:54 2009 From: alex at alexsmith.org (Alex Smith) Date: Wed, 02 Dec 2009 10:47:54 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] performance difference between a swap partition vs a swap file.>>>>> In-Reply-To: <20091202104011.GB13063@phcomp.co.uk> References: <253e13910912011724l4fc9ef1em71cc41993d969d02@mail.gmail.com> <200912020951.14876.dylan@dylan.me.uk> <20091202095436.GA18744@steve.org.uk> <20091202104011.GB13063@phcomp.co.uk> Message-ID: <4B1645DA.1010801@alexsmith.org> Alain Williams wrote: > Swap is good for things like 'getty' that are started and hardly ever used. > It is also good for when something goes wrong and starts eating RAM, > gives your system a chance to live until you sort things out. In this situation, wouldn't you want your getty to definitely not live in swap, just in case you need to get on the system from a conosole and sort things out? If mem + swap get full, and getty lives in swap... From steve at steve.org.uk Wed Dec 2 10:50:50 2009 From: steve at steve.org.uk (Steve Kemp) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2009 10:50:50 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] performance difference between a swap partition vs a swap file.>>>>> In-Reply-To: <20091202104011.GB13063@phcomp.co.uk> References: <253e13910912011724l4fc9ef1em71cc41993d969d02@mail.gmail.com> <200912020951.14876.dylan@dylan.me.uk> <20091202095436.GA18744@steve.org.uk> <20091202104011.GB13063@phcomp.co.uk> Message-ID: <20091202105050.GA24381@steve.org.uk> On Wed Dec 02, 2009 at 10:40:11 +0000, Alain Williams wrote: > > At Bytemark all our machines have been installed and configured > > with file-based swap for at least the past year. > > What file system type do these swap files live in ? Generally speaking we're using ext3. > Swap is good for things like 'getty' that are started and hardly ever used. > It is also good for when something goes wrong and starts eating RAM, > gives your system a chance to live until you sort things out. Agreed. It's nice to have a small amount for minor thrashing, but if you're in a situation when you're regularly seeing swap running then your machine is overloaded or poorly tuned. Steve -- http://www.steve.org.uk/ From mj at mjturner.net Wed Dec 2 11:27:44 2009 From: mj at mjturner.net (Michael-John Turner) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2009 11:27:44 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Ethernet switch recommendation In-Reply-To: <20091128123200.GA1432@annexia.org> References: <20091128123200.GA1432@annexia.org> Message-ID: <20091202112744.GB107@aurora.pimp.org.za> On Sat, Nov 28, 2009 at 12:32:00PM +0000, Richard Jones wrote: > So I'm looking for a 16 port, good quality, gigabit ethernet switch > which isn't consumer grade junk, and I'm prepared to spend a bit of > money on it too. What should I be looking for? I've had a D-Link DGS-1216T[1] at home for some months now and haven't had any issues with it. Web manageable, near silent, good performance and it has all the features I need (including link aggregation). Must admit, bought it primarily on price - an Amazon seller had some liquidation units for sale for just over £120, which was a huge saving. [1] http://www.dlink.com/products/?pid=324 -mj -- Michael-John Turner mj at mjturner.net <> http://mjturner.net/ From mozrat at gmail.com Wed Dec 2 14:39:35 2009 From: mozrat at gmail.com (Simon Morris) Date: Wed, 02 Dec 2009 14:39:35 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Podcasts Message-ID: <1259764775.11917.42.camel@sm-laptop> Hello, I'm not sure of the level of awareness of the TuxRadar podcast http://www.tuxradar.com/podcast I just learnt about it from Alan Popes Twitter feed yesterday (Thanks Alan!) It's along the lines of LUGRadio (which was a bit "marmite"-like in terms of opinion and approval - I enjoyed it a lot) but perhaps a little less off-the-wall. Does anyone else have any podcasts they'd recommend - Free Software or otherwise? I also listen to: SecurityNow (Not too bad on substance, perhaps a little condescending at times) This Week in Google (Good participants and substance) Diggnation (My guilty pleasure - if you removed the words "dude", "awesome" and other swear-words you'd have 45 minutes of white noise) Any other recommendations? Thanks! ~sm From peter at cannon-linux.co.uk Wed Dec 2 14:49:45 2009 From: peter at cannon-linux.co.uk (Peter Cannon) Date: Wed, 02 Dec 2009 14:49:45 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Podcasts In-Reply-To: <1259764775.11917.42.camel@sm-laptop> References: <1259764775.11917.42.camel@sm-laptop> Message-ID: <4B167E89.50907@cannon-linux.co.uk> Simon Morris wrote: > Hello, > > I'm not sure of the level of awareness of the TuxRadar podcast > > http://www.tuxradar.com/podcast http://www.linuxoutlaws.com http://www.crankygeeks.com/ (Covers everything with a smidgen of Linux) http://shotofjaq.org/ http://podcast.ubuntu-uk.org/ -- Regards Peter Cannon IRC: dick_turpin @ freenode https://twitter.com/dick_turpin http://www.linkedin.com/in/pcannon http://www.cannon-linux.co.uk http://www.archlinux.org.uk "There is every excuse for not knowing There is no excuse for not asking" From benjamin at py-soft.co.uk Wed Dec 2 14:50:12 2009 From: benjamin at py-soft.co.uk (Benjamin Donnachie) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2009 14:50:12 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Podcasts In-Reply-To: <1259764775.11917.42.camel@sm-laptop> References: <1259764775.11917.42.camel@sm-laptop> Message-ID: <732076a80912020650p5e60dd3cjca37738e8e1b5bd1@mail.gmail.com> 2009/12/2 Simon Morris : > Does anyone else have any podcasts they'd recommend - Free Software or > otherwise? I did start listening to the BCS podcasts a while back - http://www.bcs.org/server.php?show=nav.9001 Haven't listened to them for a while, but they varied from interesting to amusing! Ben From rich at annexia.org Wed Dec 2 16:44:56 2009 From: rich at annexia.org (Richard Jones) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2009 16:44:56 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] performance difference between a swap partition vs a swap file.>>>>> In-Reply-To: <4B1645DA.1010801@alexsmith.org> References: <253e13910912011724l4fc9ef1em71cc41993d969d02@mail.gmail.com> <200912020951.14876.dylan@dylan.me.uk> <20091202095436.GA18744@steve.org.uk> <20091202104011.GB13063@phcomp.co.uk> <4B1645DA.1010801@alexsmith.org> Message-ID: <20091202164456.GA7512@annexia.org> On Wed, Dec 02, 2009 at 10:47:54AM +0000, Alex Smith wrote: > Alain Williams wrote: > > Swap is good for things like 'getty' that are started and hardly ever used. > > It is also good for when something goes wrong and starts eating RAM, > > gives your system a chance to live until you sort things out. > > In this situation, wouldn't you want your getty to definitely not live > in swap, just in case you need to get on the system from a conosole and > sort things out? What you'd really want in this case is some way to lock the relevant parts you need into physical RAM. The kernel is already "locked" in RAM, so you'd have to mlock pages from getty too. And login, and bash, and any diagnostic programs. Never seen this done in real life though :-) People who want such highly available systems tend to configure them without swap and without memory overcommit in the first place. Rich. -- Richard Jones Red Hat From cehunter at gb-x.org Wed Dec 2 16:49:43 2009 From: cehunter at gb-x.org (Christopher Hunter) Date: Wed, 02 Dec 2009 16:49:43 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Ethernet switch recommendation In-Reply-To: <20091202101837.GA12830@pzat.meep.org> References: <20091128123200.GA1432@annexia.org> <20091202101837.GA12830@pzat.meep.org> Message-ID: <1259772583.8488.3.camel@localhost> On Wed, 2009-12-02 at 10:18 +0000, James Hawtin wrote: > On Tue, Dec 01, 2009 at 08:12:47PM +0100, Chris Bell wrote: > > One thing you should be looking for is faulty connections on your local > > mains, including especially the earth connections, to make sure that you do > > not have large earth currents. Network connections should be fairly well > > protected, although they might be sensitive to spikes. > > > > This is very good advice, we have terrible power quality in wood green which > often makes cheaper switches crash (Cheap PSUs). I suggest you install spike > arrestor, better still use a ups. It's not much better here in Muswell Hill. A simple linear PSU (traditional type - transformer, bridge rectifier, smoothing capacitor) and a CURRENT regulator to trickle charge Nicad or Li Ion cells, which actually power the router, switch, or whatever is the cheapest non-interruptable PSU you can get! C. From damerell at chiark.greenend.org.uk Wed Dec 2 17:02:09 2009 From: damerell at chiark.greenend.org.uk (David Damerell) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2009 17:02:09 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] performance difference between a swap partition vs a swap file.>>>>> In-Reply-To: <20091202104617.GC13063@phcomp.co.uk> References: <253e13910912011724l4fc9ef1em71cc41993d969d02@mail.gmail.com> <20091202103923.GB12830@pzat.meep.org> <20091202104617.GC13063@phcomp.co.uk> Message-ID: <19222.40337.165151.979789@chiark.greenend.org.uk> On Wednesday, 2 Dec 2009, Alain Williams wrote: >On Wed, Dec 02, 2009 at 10:39:23AM +0000, James Hawtin wrote: >>33GB swap partition sounds insane, perhaps you have a very large amount of >I still hear people saying ''I allocate as much swap as I have RAM''. >I have never understood this rule of thumb, Various Unixen (including early Linux 2.4s, SunOS 4.x) had a technical requirement for swap to be 2xRAM. Garbled versions of this probably have given rise to this rule of thumb. It's not a bad starting point, though. It doesn't often make a lot of sense if you're thinking "how much might I use", but if you don't know how much you might use but are instead thinking "how much could I use before the system becomes unfeasibly slow", that leads you more to a swap/RAM ratio than an absolute quantity. -- David Damerell And now, a seemingly inexplicable shot of a passing train. Today is Gouday, November. Tomorrow will be Chedday, November. From hearnsj at googlemail.com Wed Dec 2 18:11:46 2009 From: hearnsj at googlemail.com (John Hearns) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2009 18:11:46 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] performance difference between a swap partition vs a swap file.>>>>> In-Reply-To: <20091202164456.GA7512@annexia.org> References: <253e13910912011724l4fc9ef1em71cc41993d969d02@mail.gmail.com> <200912020951.14876.dylan@dylan.me.uk> <20091202095436.GA18744@steve.org.uk> <20091202104011.GB13063@phcomp.co.uk> <4B1645DA.1010801@alexsmith.org> <20091202164456.GA7512@annexia.org> Message-ID: <9f8092cc0912021011p4801fee8v714c8585b22e3906@mail.gmail.com> 2009/12/2 Richard Jones : > > What you'd really want in this case is some way to lock the relevant > parts you need into physical RAM.  The kernel is already "locked" in > RAM, so you'd have to mlock pages from getty too.  And login, and > bash, and any diagnostic programs.  Never seen this done in real life > though :-)  People who want such highly available systems tend to > configure them without swap and without memory overcommit in the first > place. As someone with a clue once explained to me (old-time SGI employee and trainer on the Altix Evaluation and Performance Tuning course) the problem is that the Linux cache has no floor - agreeing with what you are saying. In Irix it was possible to set a floor to the cache, so you would still have some space for applications like that. In the Linux world, when a system has run out of memory it is common to say "I can't get a login prompt because the system is too busy reading/writing to disk", in fact what has happened is that the executables you need have been swapped out - and you haven't a snowball's chance of getting them back. From hearnsj at googlemail.com Wed Dec 2 18:18:09 2009 From: hearnsj at googlemail.com (John Hearns) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2009 18:18:09 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] performance difference between a swap partition vs a swap file.>>>>> In-Reply-To: <9f8092cc0912021011p4801fee8v714c8585b22e3906@mail.gmail.com> References: <253e13910912011724l4fc9ef1em71cc41993d969d02@mail.gmail.com> <200912020951.14876.dylan@dylan.me.uk> <20091202095436.GA18744@steve.org.uk> <20091202104011.GB13063@phcomp.co.uk> <4B1645DA.1010801@alexsmith.org> <20091202164456.GA7512@annexia.org> <9f8092cc0912021011p4801fee8v714c8585b22e3906@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9f8092cc0912021018n26436eaeh4a30471c9fe783c3@mail.gmail.com> ps. as an aside on this topic, performance of swpa files or swap partitions is of course dreadful. However, I am tempted to try a big solid state disk to see how well it would work. As another aside, there is a UK company building solid state disks from real DRAM chips (rather than flash). Their web page has some pretty big claims. And as a final aside, I run systems which don't have disks - you can use swap over iSCSI on them, though of course at the other end there is a disk! From abuse at cabal.org.uk Wed Dec 2 17:41:49 2009 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2009 17:41:49 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] performance difference between a swap partition vs a swap file.>>>>> In-Reply-To: <20091202104617.GC13063@phcomp.co.uk> References: <253e13910912011724l4fc9ef1em71cc41993d969d02@mail.gmail.com> <20091202103923.GB12830@pzat.meep.org> <20091202104617.GC13063@phcomp.co.uk> Message-ID: <04801066-3D69-4844-B6BE-AB3708414E0D@cabal.org.uk> On 2 Dec 2009, at 10:46, Alain Williams wrote: > On Wed, Dec 02, 2009 at 10:39:23AM +0000, James Hawtin wrote: >> 33GB swap partition sounds insane, perhaps you have a very large >> amount of > I still hear people saying ''I allocate as much swap as I have > RAM''. I have never understood this rule of thumb, it *was* probably > OK for the very first install of a new system of which you have no > clue how much resources it is going to use because you have never > seen it before. That rule of thumb probably dates back to SunOS times, which had a fairly primitive VM subsystem that expected each page of RAM to be backed by a page of swap. From rich at annexia.org Wed Dec 2 21:04:27 2009 From: rich at annexia.org (Richard Jones) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2009 21:04:27 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] performance difference between a swap partition vs a swap file.>>>>> In-Reply-To: <9f8092cc0912021018n26436eaeh4a30471c9fe783c3@mail.gmail.com> References: <253e13910912011724l4fc9ef1em71cc41993d969d02@mail.gmail.com> <200912020951.14876.dylan@dylan.me.uk> <20091202095436.GA18744@steve.org.uk> <20091202104011.GB13063@phcomp.co.uk> <4B1645DA.1010801@alexsmith.org> <20091202164456.GA7512@annexia.org> <9f8092cc0912021011p4801fee8v714c8585b22e3906@mail.gmail.com> <9f8092cc0912021018n26436eaeh4a30471c9fe783c3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20091202210427.GA17275@annexia.org> On Wed, Dec 02, 2009 at 06:18:09PM +0000, John Hearns wrote: > As another aside, there is a UK company building solid state disks > from real DRAM chips (rather than flash). Their web page has some > pretty big claims. These disks are rather .. "forgetful" then? Or do they have big batteries? Rich. -- Richard Jones Red Hat From rich at annexia.org Wed Dec 2 21:22:07 2009 From: rich at annexia.org (Richard Jones) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2009 21:22:07 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] performance difference between a swap partition vs a swap file.>>>>> In-Reply-To: <04801066-3D69-4844-B6BE-AB3708414E0D@cabal.org.uk> References: <253e13910912011724l4fc9ef1em71cc41993d969d02@mail.gmail.com> <20091202103923.GB12830@pzat.meep.org> <20091202104617.GC13063@phcomp.co.uk> <04801066-3D69-4844-B6BE-AB3708414E0D@cabal.org.uk> Message-ID: <20091202212207.GB17275@annexia.org> On Wed, Dec 02, 2009 at 05:41:49PM +0000, Peter Corlett wrote: > On 2 Dec 2009, at 10:46, Alain Williams wrote: > > On Wed, Dec 02, 2009 at 10:39:23AM +0000, James Hawtin wrote: > >> 33GB swap partition sounds insane, perhaps you have a very large > >> amount of > > I still hear people saying ''I allocate as much swap as I have > > RAM''. I have never understood this rule of thumb, it *was* probably > > OK for the very first install of a new system of which you have no > > clue how much resources it is going to use because you have never > > seen it before. > > That rule of thumb probably dates back to SunOS times, which had a > fairly primitive VM subsystem that expected each page of RAM to be > backed by a page of swap. I was waiting for someone to mention this ... Yes, ancient SunOS had a primitive VM system which backed each *anonymous* page of virtual memory with swap space. (Things like executable code and read-only data would be backed by their original disk files.) However anonymous pages are very common so that leads to the rule of thumb that you needed swap = 1 x RAM just to break even. If you actually wanted to meaningfully swap, you needed > 1 x RAM. This braindeadery was finally put to rest in Solaris in the early '90s: https://eprints.kfupm.edu.sa/75671/1/75671.pdf http://sunsite.uakom.sk/sunworldonline/swol-01-1998/swol-01-insidesolaris.html Rich. -- Richard Jones Red Hat From general_email at technicalbloke.com Thu Dec 3 06:50:21 2009 From: general_email at technicalbloke.com (general_email at technicalbloke.com) Date: Thu, 03 Dec 2009 06:50:21 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Podcasts In-Reply-To: <1259764775.11917.42.camel@sm-laptop> References: <1259764775.11917.42.camel@sm-laptop> Message-ID: <4B175FAD.5010805@technicalbloke.com> Simon Morris wrote: > Hello, > > I'm not sure of the level of awareness of the TuxRadar podcast > > http://www.tuxradar.com/podcast > > I just learnt about it from Alan Popes Twitter feed yesterday (Thanks > Alan!) > > It's along the lines of LUGRadio (which was a bit "marmite"-like in > terms of opinion and approval - I enjoyed it a lot) but perhaps a little > less off-the-wall. > > Does anyone else have any podcasts they'd recommend - Free Software or > otherwise? > > I also listen to: > > SecurityNow (Not too bad on substance, perhaps a little condescending at > times) > > This Week in Google (Good participants and substance) > > Diggnation (My guilty pleasure - if you removed the words "dude", > "awesome" and other swear-words you'd have 45 minutes of white noise) > > Any other recommendations? > > Thanks! > > ~sm > > Hi Simon, The TWIT network has some other good shows like This Week in Law, FLOSS Weekly and Futures in Biotech. I also like "Linux Outlaws", "The Software Freedom Law Show", the "Scientific American Podcast", the University of Bath's "Public Lecture Podcast" and "Cyberspeak" computer forensics and cyber crime podcast. If you're interested in computer security then there's also the "Crypto-gram Security Podcast" which is Bruce Schneier's blog read aloud by a helpful fan. Also security related (in a pen testing direction) are Security Justice and Exotic Liability. Both of those, but the later in particular, are most definitely not family friendly. In fact the host of Exotic Liability is obnoxious, sexist and immature in the extreme - I only tolerate it for the info and occasional insight. I'm always on the lookout for more good tech podcasts so keep 'em coming everyone :) Roger. From general_email at technicalbloke.com Thu Dec 3 07:08:29 2009 From: general_email at technicalbloke.com (general_email at technicalbloke.com) Date: Thu, 03 Dec 2009 07:08:29 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] performance difference between a swap partition vs a swap file.>>>>> In-Reply-To: <20091202210427.GA17275@annexia.org> References: <253e13910912011724l4fc9ef1em71cc41993d969d02@mail.gmail.com> <200912020951.14876.dylan@dylan.me.uk> <20091202095436.GA18744@steve.org.uk> <20091202104011.GB13063@phcomp.co.uk> <4B1645DA.1010801@alexsmith.org> <20091202164456.GA7512@annexia.org> <9f8092cc0912021011p4801fee8v714c8585b22e3906@mail.gmail.com> <9f8092cc0912021018n26436eaeh4a30471c9fe783c3@mail.gmail.com> <20091202210427.GA17275@annexia.org> Message-ID: <4B1763ED.6000304@technicalbloke.com> Richard Jones wrote: > On Wed, Dec 02, 2009 at 06:18:09PM +0000, John Hearns wrote: > >> As another aside, there is a UK company building solid state disks >> from real DRAM chips (rather than flash). Their web page has some >> pretty big claims. >> > > These disks are rather .. "forgetful" then? Or do they have big > batteries? > > Rich. > > Basically yeah, you've been able to get battery backed dram disks for many years now. They're not cheap and the batteries are only good for a few hours/days but if you need ultra high IO performance for say a database server and your database is larger than the OS / Hardware can hold in normal RAM they're a good option. I remember meeting a guy at a LAN party around 2000 who'd gotten hold of a 4Gb one of these (from a jet figher allegedly) and stuck it in his PII as Windows swap space. His machine ran NICE! Roger. From sean at practicalweb.co.uk Thu Dec 3 10:29:05 2009 From: sean at practicalweb.co.uk (Sean Burlington) Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2009 10:29:05 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Podcasts In-Reply-To: <4B175FAD.5010805@technicalbloke.com> References: <1259764775.11917.42.camel@sm-laptop> <4B175FAD.5010805@technicalbloke.com> Message-ID: <5e3a9daa0912030229x13bed4e4y6fcf5b36a9c0e72c@mail.gmail.com> 2009/12/3 general_email at technicalbloke.com : > > I'm always on the lookout for more good tech podcasts so keep 'em coming > everyone :) > What is the point of tech podcasts? They don't get indexed, you can't grep them and if I do find a description of a podcast that sounds like it has a nugget of info in it - I often find I spend an hour listening to the damn thing only to find the bit I'm interesting in being dealt with in a trivial way. Surely text is the medium of geekery. -- Sean Burlington www.practicalweb.co.uk From general_email at technicalbloke.com Thu Dec 3 10:34:56 2009 From: general_email at technicalbloke.com (general_email at technicalbloke.com) Date: Thu, 03 Dec 2009 10:34:56 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Podcasts In-Reply-To: <5e3a9daa0912030229x13bed4e4y6fcf5b36a9c0e72c@mail.gmail.com> References: <1259764775.11917.42.camel@sm-laptop> <4B175FAD.5010805@technicalbloke.com> <5e3a9daa0912030229x13bed4e4y6fcf5b36a9c0e72c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B179450.70203@technicalbloke.com> Sean Burlington wrote: > 2009/12/3 general_email at technicalbloke.com : > > >> I'm always on the lookout for more good tech podcasts so keep 'em coming >> everyone :) >> >> > > > What is the point of tech podcasts? > > They don't get indexed, you can't grep them > > and if I do find a description of a podcast that sounds like it has a > nugget of info in it - I often find I spend an hour listening to the > damn thing only to find the bit I'm interesting in being dealt with in > a trivial way. > > Surely text is the medium of geekery. > > > > > The point is that I can learn stuff while I'm using my eyes and hands for other things like washing up, cleaning, driving, fixing computers and all the other times it isn't convenient to have to focus on a screen and roll a scroll wheel. Roger. From peter at cannon-linux.co.uk Thu Dec 3 11:10:05 2009 From: peter at cannon-linux.co.uk (Peter Cannon) Date: Thu, 03 Dec 2009 11:10:05 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Podcasts In-Reply-To: <4B179450.70203@technicalbloke.com> References: <1259764775.11917.42.camel@sm-laptop> <4B175FAD.5010805@technicalbloke.com> <5e3a9daa0912030229x13bed4e4y6fcf5b36a9c0e72c@mail.gmail.com> <4B179450.70203@technicalbloke.com> Message-ID: <4B179C8D.7030704@cannon-linux.co.uk> general_email at technicalbloke.com wrote: >> > The point is that I can learn stuff while I'm using my eyes and hands > for other things like washing up, cleaning, driving, fixing computers > and all the other times it isn't convenient to have to focus on a screen > and roll a scroll wheel. About the only thing you'll ever gain from a podcast is a 'tip' most of them are not designed to be an educational medium. Nine times out of ten the information or views are at worse wrong or at the very least misguided. For me I tend to listen to them for entertainment value, something to pass the time while driving to work or walking the dog. -- Regards Peter Cannon IRC: dick_turpin @ freenode https://twitter.com/dick_turpin http://www.linkedin.com/in/pcannon http://www.cannon-linux.co.uk http://www.archlinux.org.uk "There is every excuse for not knowing There is no excuse for not asking" From sean at practicalweb.co.uk Thu Dec 3 11:26:48 2009 From: sean at practicalweb.co.uk (Sean Burlington) Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2009 11:26:48 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Podcasts In-Reply-To: <4B179C8D.7030704@cannon-linux.co.uk> References: <1259764775.11917.42.camel@sm-laptop> <4B175FAD.5010805@technicalbloke.com> <5e3a9daa0912030229x13bed4e4y6fcf5b36a9c0e72c@mail.gmail.com> <4B179450.70203@technicalbloke.com> <4B179C8D.7030704@cannon-linux.co.uk> Message-ID: <5e3a9daa0912030326l2934de97l5ed1483fcbde0bb8@mail.gmail.com> 2009/12/3 Peter Cannon : > general_email at technicalbloke.com wrote: > >>> >> The point is that I can learn stuff while I'm using my eyes and hands >> for other things like washing up, cleaning, driving, fixing computers >> and all the other times it isn't convenient to have to focus on a screen >> and roll a scroll wheel. > > About the only thing you'll ever gain from a podcast is a 'tip' most of > them are not designed to be an educational medium. > > Nine times out of ten the information or views are at worse wrong or at > the very least misguided. For me I tend to listen to them for > entertainment value, something to pass the time while driving to work or > walking the dog. > I guess I can see the point if you have dead time on a commute - personally I cycle to work and talk to my wife while washing up :-) I'm sure tech podcasts have a place - but I hate it when they replace the written word Sometimes people just record a chat and put it online as that's easier than writing - and editing! I'm thinking particularly of the lullabot podcasts on Drupal For a company that wants to be seen as at the forefront of the community I find these to be very low quality - and a vastly inferior contribution to the same content in a searchable format. -- Sean Burlington www.practicalweb.co.uk From chiclets_lover at hotmail.co.uk Thu Dec 3 11:27:32 2009 From: chiclets_lover at hotmail.co.uk (chiclets_lover at hotmail.co.uk) Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2009 11:27:32 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Vista vs seven Message-ID: <224524288-1259839647-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1274287355-@bda124.bisx.produk.on.blackberry> What are you opipions on windows 7 vs vista and over all both vs xp I don't know weather upgrade up off of xp on to seven what do you guys think ? Rob Sent using BlackBerry® From peter at cannon-linux.co.uk Thu Dec 3 11:40:58 2009 From: peter at cannon-linux.co.uk (Peter Cannon) Date: Thu, 03 Dec 2009 11:40:58 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Podcasts In-Reply-To: <5e3a9daa0912030326l2934de97l5ed1483fcbde0bb8@mail.gmail.com> References: <1259764775.11917.42.camel@sm-laptop> <4B175FAD.5010805@technicalbloke.com> <5e3a9daa0912030229x13bed4e4y6fcf5b36a9c0e72c@mail.gmail.com> <4B179450.70203@technicalbloke.com> <4B179C8D.7030704@cannon-linux.co.uk> <5e3a9daa0912030326l2934de97l5ed1483fcbde0bb8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B17A3CA.30708@cannon-linux.co.uk> Sean Burlington wrote: > I guess I can see the point if you have dead time on a commute > > - personally I cycle to work and talk to my wife while washing up :-) I try not to talk to the wife when washing up, it tends to disturb her and she drops a plate ;-) > I'm sure tech podcasts have a place - but I hate it when they replace > the written word You will love UUPC then, Ubuntu UK Podcast, I believe they are having their shows transcribed. Although why anyone would want to read through a podcast episode is beyond me. As an example Linux Outlaws do their podcasts live with a video feed and IRC interaction this sounds awesome however having attended a couple of shows it then occurs to me that there is little point in downloading the episode as I've already heard it! Plus its a bit like news reports where that idiot in the hoody is stood behind the reporter giving a thumbs up and pulling stupid faces everyone in the IRC channel is going mad trying to get their /nick mentioned. I sort of agree with you in terms that if I wanted information on Samba or NFS a podcast would probably be the last place I would look, as I said earlier they're for entertainment in my book. -- Regards Peter Cannon IRC: dick_turpin @ freenode https://twitter.com/dick_turpin http://www.linkedin.com/in/pcannon http://www.cannon-linux.co.uk http://www.archlinux.org.uk "There is every excuse for not knowing There is no excuse for not asking" From essuu at ourshack.com Thu Dec 3 11:41:57 2009 From: essuu at ourshack.com (Simon Wilcox) Date: Thu, 03 Dec 2009 11:41:57 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Vista vs seven In-Reply-To: <224524288-1259839647-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1274287355-@bda124.bisx.produk.on.blackberry> References: <224524288-1259839647-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1274287355-@bda124.bisx.produk.on.blackberry> Message-ID: <4B17A405.9060104@ourshack.com> On 3/12/09 11:27, chiclets_lover at hotmail.co.uk wrote: > What are you opipions on windows 7 vs vista and over all both vs xp I > don't know weather upgrade up off of xp on to seven what do you guys > think ? On this list I think the correct response is that they're all sh!t and you should install Linux ! S. From jjllmmss at googlemail.com Thu Dec 3 13:02:52 2009 From: jjllmmss at googlemail.com (JLMS) Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2009 13:02:52 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] [OFFTOPIC] Re: Vista vs seven In-Reply-To: <224524288-1259839647-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1274287355-@bda124.bisx.produk.on.blackberry> References: <224524288-1259839647-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1274287355-@bda124.bisx.produk.on.blackberry> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 3, 2009 at 11:27 AM, wrote: > What are you opipions on windows 7 vs vista and over all both vs xp I don't know weather upgrade up off of xp on to seven what do you guys think ? > > Rob > Sent using BlackBerry® Why do you feel the need to keep asking questions about Windows here? I for once don't have any expertise, and frankly, don't want to acquire any. You are off topic, not for the first time I have to say. From mozrat at gmail.com Thu Dec 3 13:17:55 2009 From: mozrat at gmail.com (Simon Morris) Date: Thu, 03 Dec 2009 13:17:55 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Podcasts In-Reply-To: <5e3a9daa0912030229x13bed4e4y6fcf5b36a9c0e72c@mail.gmail.com> References: <1259764775.11917.42.camel@sm-laptop> <4B175FAD.5010805@technicalbloke.com> <5e3a9daa0912030229x13bed4e4y6fcf5b36a9c0e72c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1259846275.3983.169.camel@sm-laptop> On Thu, 2009-12-03 at 10:29 +0000, Sean Burlington wrote: > 2009/12/3 general_email at technicalbloke.com : > > > > > I'm always on the lookout for more good tech podcasts so keep 'em coming > > everyone :) > > > > > What is the point of tech podcasts? > > They don't get indexed, you can't grep them > Well.. Google are working towards Video-to-text translation tools so we can do exactly that.. It was discussed on This Week In Google recently (episode before last I think) Ironically - if you'd listened to the podcast you'd have known this! ~sm From co at chocabloc.net Thu Dec 3 14:04:12 2009 From: co at chocabloc.net (Colin Wright) Date: Thu, 03 Dec 2009 14:04:12 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Vista vs seven In-Reply-To: <4B17A405.9060104@ourshack.com> References: <224524288-1259839647-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1274287355-@bda124.bisx.produk.on.blackberry> <4B17A405.9060104@ourshack.com> Message-ID: <4B17C55C.1020408@chocabloc.net> Yes you are on X list. So if you ask about Y the answer will always be 'It's shit!'. Simon Wilcox wrote: > On 3/12/09 11:27, chiclets_lover at hotmail.co.uk wrote: > >> What are you opipions on windows 7 vs vista and over all both vs xp I >> don't know weather upgrade up off of xp on to seven what do you guys >> think ? >> > > On this list I think the correct response is that they're all sh!t and > you should install Linux ! > > S. > From shannon.carver at gmail.com Thu Dec 3 14:45:44 2009 From: shannon.carver at gmail.com (Shannon Carver) Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2009 14:45:44 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] [OFFTOPIC] Re: Vista vs seven In-Reply-To: References: <224524288-1259839647-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1274287355-@bda124.bisx.produk.on.blackberry> Message-ID: <41b78fc30912030645p19eb227fuc009ac745c2a2495@mail.gmail.com> Hmm, it may be off topic and perhaps should be in an off topic list, but this is a community and I dont see the issue with discussing topics with (mostly) like minded members. Chill, I'd say, there's a bunch of topics I don't feel the need to reply to, either because they don't interest me, or I know nothing about them. Is there a GLLUG offtopic list, by the way? Shannon Carver 2009/12/3 JLMS > On Thu, Dec 3, 2009 at 11:27 AM, wrote: > > What are you opipions on windows 7 vs vista and over all both vs xp I > don't know weather upgrade up off of xp on to seven what do you guys think ? > > > > Rob > > Sent using BlackBerry® > > Why do you feel the need to keep asking questions about Windows here? > > I for once don't have any expertise, and frankly, don't want to acquire > any. > > You are off topic, not for the first time I have to say. > -- > Gllug mailing list - Gllug at gllug.org.uk > http://lists.gllug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/gllug > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.gllug.org.uk/pipermail/gllug/attachments/20091203/e1530b17/attachment.htm From will.pink at gmail.com Thu Dec 3 15:02:53 2009 From: will.pink at gmail.com (william pink) Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2009 15:02:53 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] [OFFTOPIC] Re: Vista vs seven In-Reply-To: <41b78fc30912030645p19eb227fuc009ac745c2a2495@mail.gmail.com> References: <224524288-1259839647-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1274287355-@bda124.bisx.produk.on.blackberry> <41b78fc30912030645p19eb227fuc009ac745c2a2495@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7891dd830912030702t137e5816g29bf112360e9a4cf@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Dec 3, 2009 at 2:45 PM, Shannon Carver wrote: > Hmm, it may be off topic and perhaps should be in an off topic list, but > this is a community and I dont see the issue with discussing topics with > (mostly) like minded members. > > Chill, I'd say, there's a bunch of topics I don't feel the need to reply > to, either because they don't interest me, or I know nothing about them. > > Is there a GLLUG offtopic list, by the way? > > > Shannon Carver > > > 2009/12/3 JLMS > > On Thu, Dec 3, 2009 at 11:27 AM, wrote: >> > What are you opipions on windows 7 vs vista and over all both vs xp I >> don't know weather upgrade up off of xp on to seven what do you guys think ? >> > >> > Rob >> > Sent using BlackBerry® >> >> Why do you feel the need to keep asking questions about Windows here? >> >> I for once don't have any expertise, and frankly, don't want to acquire >> any. >> >> You are off topic, not for the first time I have to say. >> -- >> Gllug mailing list - Gllug at gllug.org.uk >> http://lists.gllug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/gllug >> > > > -- > Gllug mailing list - Gllug at gllug.org.uk > http://lists.gllug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/gllug > > Yes but I presume there are plenty of Windows user mailing lists out there that I am sure are more suited to this question, at the end of the day this is a Linux user mailing list. 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URL: http://lists.gllug.org.uk/pipermail/gllug/attachments/20091203/a70c88e9/attachment.htm From matthew.king at monnsta.net Thu Dec 3 15:14:54 2009 From: matthew.king at monnsta.net (Matthew King) Date: Thu, 03 Dec 2009 15:14:54 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] [OFFTOPIC] Re: Vista vs seven In-Reply-To: <41b78fc30912030645p19eb227fuc009ac745c2a2495@mail.gmail.com> (Shannon Carver's message of "Thu, 3 Dec 2009 14:45:44 +0000") References: <224524288-1259839647-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1274287355-@bda124.bisx.produk.on.blackberry> <41b78fc30912030645p19eb227fuc009ac745c2a2495@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <878wdkozrl.fsf@knight.monnsta.net> Shannon Carver writes: > Hmm, it may be off topic and perhaps should be in an off topic list, but > this is a community and I dont see the issue with discussing topics with > (mostly) like minded members. > > Chill, I'd say, there's a bunch of topics I don't feel the need to reply to, > either because they don't interest me, or I know nothing about them. > > Is there a GLLUG offtopic list, by the way? Yes. That would be $all_the_other_lists. Also, I'd like to discuss cheese. There are enough gllug members that some of you must be like-minded enough to like cheese too, so let's go! Mmm. Cheese. Matthew -- I must take issue with the term "a mere child", for it has been my invariable experience that the company of a mere child is infinitely preferable to that of a mere adult. -- Fran Lebowitz From bap at shrdlu.com Thu Dec 3 15:48:27 2009 From: bap at shrdlu.com (Bernard Peek) Date: Thu, 03 Dec 2009 15:48:27 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] [OFFTOPIC] Re: Vista vs seven In-Reply-To: <878wdkozrl.fsf@knight.monnsta.net> References: <224524288-1259839647-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1274287355-@bda124.bisx.produk.on.blackberry> <41b78fc30912030645p19eb227fuc009ac745c2a2495@mail.gmail.com> <878wdkozrl.fsf@knight.monnsta.net> Message-ID: <4B17DDCB.7050501@shrdlu.com> Matthew King wrote: > Shannon Carver writes: > > >> Hmm, it may be off topic and perhaps should be in an off topic list, but >> this is a community and I dont see the issue with discussing topics with >> (mostly) like minded members. >> >> Chill, I'd say, there's a bunch of topics I don't feel the need to reply to, >> either because they don't interest me, or I know nothing about them. >> >> Is there a GLLUG offtopic list, by the way? >> > > Yes. That would be $all_the_other_lists. > > Also, I'd like to discuss cheese. There are enough gllug members that > some of you must be like-minded enough to like cheese too, so let's go! > > Mmm. Cheese. > Try Lanarkshire Blue, like Roquefort but half the price. :-) -- bap at shrdlu.com From walter.stanish at saffrondigital.com Thu Dec 3 15:51:53 2009 From: walter.stanish at saffrondigital.com (Walter Stanish) Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2009 15:51:53 -0000 Subject: [Gllug] [OFFTOPIC] Re: Vista vs seven In-Reply-To: <4B17DDCB.7050501@shrdlu.com> References: <224524288-1259839647-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1274287355-@bda124.bisx.produk.on.blackberry> <41b78fc30912030645p19eb227fuc009ac745c2a2495@mail.gmail.com><878wdkozrl.fsf@knight.monnsta.net> <4B17DDCB.7050501@shrdlu.com> Message-ID: > Try Lanarkshire Blue, like Roquefort but half the price. A top tip, and much more digestible than windows. - A fellow cheese lover, who lived in the fabled & lactose-limited lands of the far east for a near-decade. From shannon.carver at gmail.com Thu Dec 3 15:56:32 2009 From: shannon.carver at gmail.com (Shannon Carver) Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2009 15:56:32 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] [OFFTOPIC] Re: Vista vs seven In-Reply-To: <7891dd830912030702t137e5816g29bf112360e9a4cf@mail.gmail.com> References: <224524288-1259839647-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1274287355-@bda124.bisx.produk.on.blackberry> <41b78fc30912030645p19eb227fuc009ac745c2a2495@mail.gmail.com> <7891dd830912030702t137e5816g29bf112360e9a4cf@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <41b78fc30912030756v7d83bc04m8a925cad819db2f0@mail.gmail.com> Without a doubt, but I'd guarantee that a Windows mailing list would be even more biased than here with Windows 7 zealots forcing their opinions on Lowly Vista and XP Users! :P On topic, I'm a huge advocate of Windows 7 (when I'm forced to use a Windows machine that is), it's speedier and less RAM hungry than Windows Vista, and worlds above XP for usability and 64bit goodness (I've never understood people's stance on staying with XP). I love cheese too, but unfortunately I've not had the pleasure of trying the delicious sounded treats listed in this thread! Shannon Carver 2009/12/3 william pink > > > On Thu, Dec 3, 2009 at 2:45 PM, Shannon Carver wrote: > >> Hmm, it may be off topic and perhaps should be in an off topic list, but >> this is a community and I dont see the issue with discussing topics with >> (mostly) like minded members. >> >> Chill, I'd say, there's a bunch of topics I don't feel the need to reply >> to, either because they don't interest me, or I know nothing about them. >> >> Is there a GLLUG offtopic list, by the way? >> >> >> Shannon Carver >> >> >> 2009/12/3 JLMS >> >> On Thu, Dec 3, 2009 at 11:27 AM, wrote: >>> > What are you opipions on windows 7 vs vista and over all both vs xp I >>> don't know weather upgrade up off of xp on to seven what do you guys think ? >>> > >>> > Rob >>> > Sent using BlackBerry® >>> >>> Why do you feel the need to keep asking questions about Windows here? >>> >>> I for once don't have any expertise, and frankly, don't want to acquire >>> any. >>> >>> You are off topic, not for the first time I have to say. >>> -- >>> Gllug mailing list - Gllug at gllug.org.uk >>> http://lists.gllug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/gllug >>> >> >> >> -- >> Gllug mailing list - Gllug at gllug.org.uk >> http://lists.gllug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/gllug >> >> > Yes but I presume there are plenty of Windows user mailing lists out there > that I am sure are more suited to this question, at the end of the day this > is a Linux user mailing list. > > W > > > -- > Gllug mailing list - Gllug at gllug.org.uk > http://lists.gllug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/gllug > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.gllug.org.uk/pipermail/gllug/attachments/20091203/9a7da88f/attachment-0001.htm From general_email at technicalbloke.com Thu Dec 3 16:18:35 2009 From: general_email at technicalbloke.com (general_email at technicalbloke.com) Date: Thu, 03 Dec 2009 16:18:35 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Podcasts In-Reply-To: <4B179C8D.7030704@cannon-linux.co.uk> References: <1259764775.11917.42.camel@sm-laptop> <4B175FAD.5010805@technicalbloke.com> <5e3a9daa0912030229x13bed4e4y6fcf5b36a9c0e72c@mail.gmail.com> <4B179450.70203@technicalbloke.com> <4B179C8D.7030704@cannon-linux.co.uk> Message-ID: <4B17E4DB.1040604@technicalbloke.com> Peter Cannon wrote: > general_email at technicalbloke.com wrote: > > >>> >>> >> The point is that I can learn stuff while I'm using my eyes and hands >> for other things like washing up, cleaning, driving, fixing computers >> and all the other times it isn't convenient to have to focus on a screen >> and roll a scroll wheel. >> > > About the only thing you'll ever gain from a podcast is a 'tip' most of > them are not designed to be an educational medium. > > Nine times out of ten the information or views are at worse wrong or at > the very least misguided. For me I tend to listen to them for > entertainment value, something to pass the time while driving to work or > walking the dog. > > Well I take a holistic approach to learning, I do not expect a podcast to be a sequence of hard, well referenced facts - chances are that would be quite tedious. Anyway I think either you are massively exaggerating or you listen to some terribly non-factual podcasts. With the exception of Linux Outlaws most of the podcasts I listen to are hosted by notable people in their respective fields, many of them published academics. I'm sure that if an analysis of factual accuracy were done the podcast world would prove to be at least as accurate as the web, if not more so. Seriously, think of all the nonsense there is out there on the web, no-one is suggesting the web is useless or only for entertainment because >95% of it is utter rubbish, you just pluck the good bits out and ignore the rest. Roger. From addw at phcomp.co.uk Thu Dec 3 17:13:43 2009 From: addw at phcomp.co.uk (Alain Williams) Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2009 17:13:43 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Vista vs seven In-Reply-To: <4B17C55C.1020408@chocabloc.net> References: <224524288-1259839647-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1274287355-@bda124.bisx.produk.on.blackberry> <4B17A405.9060104@ourshack.com> <4B17C55C.1020408@chocabloc.net> Message-ID: <20091203171343.GC8620@phcomp.co.uk> On Thu, Dec 03, 2009 at 02:04:12PM +0000, Colin Wright wrote: > Yes you are on X list. So if you ask about Y the answer will always be > 'It's shit!'. And maybe on some lists even told off about top posting .... > Simon Wilcox wrote: > > On 3/12/09 11:27, chiclets_lover at hotmail.co.uk wrote: > > > >> What are you opipions on windows 7 vs vista and over all both vs xp I > >> don't know weather upgrade up off of xp on to seven what do you guys > >> think ? > >> > > > > On this list I think the correct response is that they're all sh!t and > > you should install Linux ! -- Alain Williams Linux/GNU Consultant - Mail systems, Web sites, Networking, Programmer, IT Lecturer. +44 (0) 787 668 0256 http://www.phcomp.co.uk/ Parliament Hill Computers Ltd. Registration Information: http://www.phcomp.co.uk/contact.php Past chairman of UKUUG: http://www.ukuug.org/ #include From vchurchill at softwareshack.eu Thu Dec 3 18:30:25 2009 From: vchurchill at softwareshack.eu (Victor Churchill) Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2009 18:30:25 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Vista vs seven In-Reply-To: <20091203171343.GC8620@phcomp.co.uk> References: <224524288-1259839647-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1274287355-@bda124.bisx.produk.on.blackberry> <4B17A405.9060104@ourshack.com> <4B17C55C.1020408@chocabloc.net> <20091203171343.GC8620@phcomp.co.uk> Message-ID: <6026496c0912031030v5d222261s9e32569d9d53f9c6@mail.gmail.com> 2009/12/3 Alain Williams : > On Thu, Dec 03, 2009 at 02:04:12PM +0000, Colin Wright wrote: >> Yes you are on X list. So if you ask about Y the answer will always be Seemd inappropriate to me, and I wondered why the OP thought to ask it here. It's like asking a vegetarian list about whether goose fat is better than lard for roasting spuds. From joel at fysh.org Thu Dec 3 18:34:42 2009 From: joel at fysh.org (Joel Bernstein) Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2009 18:34:42 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Vista vs seven In-Reply-To: <6026496c0912031030v5d222261s9e32569d9d53f9c6@mail.gmail.com> References: <224524288-1259839647-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1274287355-@bda124.bisx.produk.on.blackberry> <4B17A405.9060104@ourshack.com> <4B17C55C.1020408@chocabloc.net> <20091203171343.GC8620@phcomp.co.uk> <6026496c0912031030v5d222261s9e32569d9d53f9c6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <893ec6980912031034g4d3fe49ctc55db7630a9c945d@mail.gmail.com> 2009/12/3 Victor Churchill : > I wondered why the OP thought to ask it here. Because the OP is a _troll_. It's somebody's idea of performance art. Evidence: new poster, only asks mis-spelled questions about Winblows, has idiotic hotmail email address. If that doesn't trip your bozo filter, what does?! Stop feeding the troll, please. /joel From dave.lambley at gmail.com Thu Dec 3 20:15:39 2009 From: dave.lambley at gmail.com (Dave Lambley) Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2009 20:15:39 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] performance difference between a swap partition vs a swap file.>>>>> In-Reply-To: <253e13910912011724l4fc9ef1em71cc41993d969d02@mail.gmail.com> References: <253e13910912011724l4fc9ef1em71cc41993d969d02@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <88283d050912031215ubc1befbr82d9c8138a8ebd55@mail.gmail.com> I looked into this a while back. With modern kernels, when you run swapon, it makes a list of all the physical blocks it has available for swap. Unless you have fragmentation, you can therefore expect identical poor performance for files, partitions and LVM partitions. Dave On 02/12/2009, Narender wrote: > I have done a lot of research, but I do not have any real world > experience so I'm hoping you can help me understand the real world > differences in performance. The research tells me that if you create a > swap file on an empty disk and on a OS using kernel 2.6 then the > performance differences are minor, but that the swap partition is a > slight favorite in terms of pure performance. > Our Scenario: > > Raid 1 146GB partition > 33GB Swap File created on / (Note: the swap file was created when the > OS was built, so the hard drives were not full and they were very > empty) > Kernel 2.6 > > > Best Regards > N > -- > Gllug mailing list - Gllug at gllug.org.uk > http://lists.gllug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/gllug > -- Sent from my mobile device From co at chocabloc.net Thu Dec 3 23:29:14 2009 From: co at chocabloc.net (Colin Wright) Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2009 23:29:14 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Vista vs seven In-Reply-To: <893ec6980912031034g4d3fe49ctc55db7630a9c945d@mail.gmail.com> References: <224524288-1259839647-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1274287355-@bda124.bisx.produk.on.blackberry> <4B17A405.9060104@ourshack.com> <4B17C55C.1020408@chocabloc.net> <20091203171343.GC8620@phcomp.co.uk> <6026496c0912031030v5d222261s9e32569d9d53f9c6@mail.gmail.com> <893ec6980912031034g4d3fe49ctc55db7630a9c945d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: A very successful troll then. Someone mentioned Windows and - It's the end of the world! Sent from my iPhone On 3 Dec 2009, at 18:34, Joel Bernstein wrote: > 2009/12/3 Victor Churchill : >> I wondered why the OP thought to ask it here. > > Because the OP is a _troll_. It's somebody's idea of performance art. > > Evidence: new poster, only asks mis-spelled questions about Winblows, > has idiotic hotmail email address. If that doesn't trip your bozo > filter, what does?! > > Stop feeding the troll, please. > > /joel > -- > Gllug mailing list - Gllug at gllug.org.uk > http://lists.gllug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/gllug From martin at hinterlands.org Thu Dec 3 23:34:09 2009 From: martin at hinterlands.org (Martin A. Brooks) Date: Thu, 03 Dec 2009 23:34:09 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] [OFFTOPIC] Re: Vista vs seven In-Reply-To: References: <224524288-1259839647-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1274287355-@bda124.bisx.produk.on.blackberry> Message-ID: <4B184AF1.8030401@hinterlands.org> On 03/12/2009 13:02, JLMS wrote: > Why do you feel the need to keep asking questions about Windows here? > > I for once don't have any expertise, and frankly, don't want to acquire any. > > You are off topic, not for the first time I have to say. List Admin Hat On Technical discussion groups are rarely entirely ontopic. It'd be nice if everything anyone said here related to Linux, but we've frequently discussed other stuff also. If you feel a thread is wandering inappropriately off-topic for your liking, please contact the list administrators directly with your concerns. Doing this on-list can only make us drift further away from those boundaries you feel comfortable with. Thanks! List Admin Hat Off From martin at hinterlands.org Thu Dec 3 23:37:48 2009 From: martin at hinterlands.org (Martin A. Brooks) Date: Thu, 03 Dec 2009 23:37:48 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Vista vs seven In-Reply-To: References: <224524288-1259839647-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1274287355-@bda124.bisx.produk.on.blackberry> <4B17A405.9060104@ourshack.com> <4B17C55C.1020408@chocabloc.net> <20091203171343.GC8620@phcomp.co.uk> <6026496c0912031030v5d222261s9e32569d9d53f9c6@mail.gmail.com> <893ec6980912031034g4d3fe49ctc55db7630a9c945d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B184BCC.3020803@hinterlands.org> On 03/12/2009 23:29, Colin Wright wrote: > A very successful troll then. > > Someone mentioned Windows and - It's the end of the world! > > Sent from my iPhone > > On 3 Dec 2009, at 18:34, Joel Bernstein wrote: > >> 2009/12/3 Victor Churchill: >>> I wondered why the OP thought to ask it here. >> >> Because the OP is a _troll_. It's somebody's idea of performance art. >> >> Evidence: new poster, only asks mis-spelled questions about Winblows, >> has idiotic hotmail email address. If that doesn't trip your bozo >> filter, what does?! >> >> Stop feeding the troll, please. >> >> /joel >> -- >> Gllug mailing list - Gllug at gllug.org.uk >> http://lists.gllug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/gllug Top-posted, untrimmed, clumsy sentence construction and sent from an Apple product. A masterly troll attempt, Sir, I salute you. :) From nix at esperi.org.uk Thu Dec 3 23:38:52 2009 From: nix at esperi.org.uk (Nix) Date: Thu, 03 Dec 2009 23:38:52 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] performance difference between a swap partition vs a swap file.>>>>> In-Reply-To: <200912020833.nB28XOU3007557@leto.astradyne.corp> (Tethys's message of "Wed, 02 Dec 2009 08:33:24 +0000") References: <253e13910912011724l4fc9ef1em71cc41993d969d02@mail.gmail.com> <253e13910912012127h6c8235efw60aeb8edfbc8ce88@mail.gmail.com> <200912020833.nB28XOU3007557@leto.astradyne.corp> Message-ID: <87zl5zmxv7.fsf@spindle.srvr.nix> On 2 Dec 2009, Tethys outgrape: > -------- > > Narender writes: > >>Could someone please guide me over this, which one is best > > If you need performance, you shouldn't be using swap. Worrying about > which type of swap is faster is a pointless excercise. They're both > glacially slow. Yeah, but if they're heavily fragmented over a large disk (e.g. if you add a swapfile to a filesystem that's already nearly full) then it gets slower yet. Mind you, swap access is intrinsically seeky so it's still glacial no matter what. With modern RAM volumes, swap is an 'oh shit' recovery mechanism to let you keep working when you're doing *far* too much at once... From nix at esperi.org.uk Thu Dec 3 23:43:25 2009 From: nix at esperi.org.uk (Nix) Date: Thu, 03 Dec 2009 23:43:25 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] performance difference between a swap partition vs a swap file.>>>>> In-Reply-To: <9f8092cc0912021011p4801fee8v714c8585b22e3906@mail.gmail.com> (John Hearns's message of "Wed, 2 Dec 2009 18:11:46 +0000") References: <253e13910912011724l4fc9ef1em71cc41993d969d02@mail.gmail.com> <200912020951.14876.dylan@dylan.me.uk> <20091202095436.GA18744@steve.org.uk> <20091202104011.GB13063@phcomp.co.uk> <4B1645DA.1010801@alexsmith.org> <20091202164456.GA7512@annexia.org> <9f8092cc0912021011p4801fee8v714c8585b22e3906@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <87vdgnmxnm.fsf@spindle.srvr.nix> On 2 Dec 2009, John Hearns outgrape: > 2009/12/2 Richard Jones : >> > What you'd really want in this case is some way to lock the relevant >> parts you need into physical RAM.  The kernel is already "locked" in [...] > As someone with a clue once explained to me (old-time SGI employee and > trainer on the Altix Evaluation and Performance Tuning course) > the problem is that the Linux cache has no floor - agreeing with what > you are saying. In Irix it was possible to set a floor to the cache, What, a minimum size? In practice there is such a floor on Linux systems, too: if you have no page cache, you have nothing mmap()ed in physical memory, thus you have no binaries running, so where's the code that's provoking the swapping? I don't really see what advantage this provides. Linux certainly does try very very *very* hard to retain some free memory at all times, because if there's none of that left, atomic allocations from interrupt context are likely to start failing, and then you have a dead system. > In the Linux world, when a system has run > out of memory it is common to say "I can't get a login prompt because > the system is too busy reading/writing to disk", in fact what has > happened is that the executables you need have been swapped out - and > you haven't a snowball's chance of getting them back. Actually when this has happened to me I was generally waiting for syslog, and syslog is stalled because it can't get any time to write any of its logs to disk, and then its socket backlog filled up, and then everything that had to log stalled. Logging in provokes syslog output, thus... (If the system really was swapping so hard that even a shell couldn't run at all, then how would you fix it even if you did have a getty locked into memory? Presumably you need to load a shell and kill(1) as well...) From nix at esperi.org.uk Thu Dec 3 23:46:25 2009 From: nix at esperi.org.uk (Nix) Date: Thu, 03 Dec 2009 23:46:25 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] performance difference between a swap partition vs a swap file.>>>>> In-Reply-To: <9f8092cc0912021018n26436eaeh4a30471c9fe783c3@mail.gmail.com> (John Hearns's message of "Wed, 2 Dec 2009 18:18:09 +0000") References: <253e13910912011724l4fc9ef1em71cc41993d969d02@mail.gmail.com> <200912020951.14876.dylan@dylan.me.uk> <20091202095436.GA18744@steve.org.uk> <20091202104011.GB13063@phcomp.co.uk> <4B1645DA.1010801@alexsmith.org> <20091202164456.GA7512@annexia.org> <9f8092cc0912021011p4801fee8v714c8585b22e3906@mail.gmail.com> <9f8092cc0912021018n26436eaeh4a30471c9fe783c3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <87r5rbmxim.fsf@spindle.srvr.nix> On 2 Dec 2009, John Hearns stated: > ps. as an aside on this topic, performance of swpa files or swap > partitions is of course dreadful. However, I am tempted to try a big > solid state disk to see how well it would work. > > As another aside, there is a UK company building solid state disks > from real DRAM chips (rather than flash). Their web page has some > pretty big claims. Also at least one US company (Violin). If you are made of money and want a *very* expensive and power-hungry room heater with low access time, they can sell you a good one. > And as a final aside, I run systems which don't have disks - you can > use swap over iSCSI on them, though of course at the other end there > is a disk! Yeah, that's another major change: many real-world network buses are now as fast as the internal buses of all but PCIe machines, and far faster than physical disks. (Of course they're still shared between many machines, but if you have *lots* of machines swapping hard enough to saturate the *bus*, they're saturating *many* disks *each* with swap activity. Unlikely.) From nix at esperi.org.uk Thu Dec 3 23:47:44 2009 From: nix at esperi.org.uk (Nix) Date: Thu, 03 Dec 2009 23:47:44 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] performance difference between a swap partition vs a swap file.>>>>> In-Reply-To: <20091202105050.GA24381@steve.org.uk> (Steve Kemp's message of "Wed, 2 Dec 2009 10:50:50 +0000") References: <253e13910912011724l4fc9ef1em71cc41993d969d02@mail.gmail.com> <200912020951.14876.dylan@dylan.me.uk> <20091202095436.GA18744@steve.org.uk> <20091202104011.GB13063@phcomp.co.uk> <20091202105050.GA24381@steve.org.uk> Message-ID: <87my1zmxgf.fsf@spindle.srvr.nix> On 2 Dec 2009, Steve Kemp spake thusly: > On Wed Dec 02, 2009 at 10:40:11 +0000, Alain Williams wrote: > >> > At Bytemark all our machines have been installed and configured >> > with file-based swap for at least the past year. >> >> What file system type do these swap files live in ? > > Generally speaking we're using ext3. ext4 is probably better in this case: the extent-based metadata will seriously reduce the number of metadata I/Os the system has to carry out for large files like swapfiles (normally it would cache them, but if you're swapping, that may not be working so well). From nix at esperi.org.uk Thu Dec 3 23:51:38 2009 From: nix at esperi.org.uk (Nix) Date: Thu, 03 Dec 2009 23:51:38 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] performance difference between a swap partition vs a swap file.>>>>> In-Reply-To: <20091202101258.12438a7a@jup-linux2.SGL.GROUP> (Avi Greenbury's message of "Wed, 2 Dec 2009 10:12:58 +0000") References: <253e13910912011724l4fc9ef1em71cc41993d969d02@mail.gmail.com> <20091202101258.12438a7a@jup-linux2.SGL.GROUP> Message-ID: <87iqcnmx9x.fsf@spindle.srvr.nix> On 2 Dec 2009, Avi Greenbury outgrape: > Swap partitions were substantially better than swap files on older > hardware, where the hard drives were more transparent about exactly > what was where on the platters. especially as regards whether the > 'first' partition on a disk is really the first one, and whether it's > contiguous. Do hard drives really lie to that degree? Obviously they conceal their physical geometry from you somewhat (e.g. zone locations and so on, although you can determine it easily to some degree with zcav or a similar program), but on every drive I've ever seen that isn't on its last legs (so is making only minor use of sector sparing), the lower-numbered (faster) sectors are on the outside of the disk, running contiguously to the higher-numbered ones on the inside. Some vendors provide systems with a large hunk of space sealed off in a host-protected area, often with a Windows restore image in it, but drives from drive manufacturers never come like that and you can turn off the HPA in Linux easily anyway. From nix at esperi.org.uk Thu Dec 3 23:53:22 2009 From: nix at esperi.org.uk (Nix) Date: Thu, 03 Dec 2009 23:53:22 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] performance difference between a swap partition vs a swap file.>>>>> In-Reply-To: <20091202104617.GC13063@phcomp.co.uk> (Alain Williams's message of "Wed, 2 Dec 2009 10:46:17 +0000") References: <253e13910912011724l4fc9ef1em71cc41993d969d02@mail.gmail.com> <20091202103923.GB12830@pzat.meep.org> <20091202104617.GC13063@phcomp.co.uk> Message-ID: <87einbmx71.fsf@spindle.srvr.nix> On 2 Dec 2009, Alain Williams said: > On Wed, Dec 02, 2009 at 10:39:23AM +0000, James Hawtin wrote: >> 33GB swap partition sounds insane, perhaps you have a very large amount of > > I still hear people saying ''I allocate as much swap as I have RAM''. > I have never understood this rule of thumb, it *was* probably OK for the very > first install of a new system of which you have no clue how much resources > it is going to use because you have never seen it before. I use this for one of my systems because I suspend it to swap with tuxonice and I'd like to be able to suspend even if I've got some stuff swapped out. Also it has oceans of disk space so a few tens of Gb blown in swap is really not a problem (or even noticeable). (You *can* suspend to a file on the filesystem, but it's much more complex to set up.) From nix at esperi.org.uk Fri Dec 4 00:06:01 2009 From: nix at esperi.org.uk (Nix) Date: Fri, 04 Dec 2009 00:06:01 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] [OFFTOPIC] Re: Vista vs seven In-Reply-To: (JLMS's message of "Thu, 3 Dec 2009 13:02:52 +0000") References: <224524288-1259839647-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1274287355-@bda124.bisx.produk.on.blackberry> Message-ID: <87aaxzmwly.fsf@spindle.srvr.nix> On 3 Dec 2009, JLMS verbalised: > On Thu, Dec 3, 2009 at 11:27 AM, wrote: >> What are you opipions on windows 7 vs vista and over all both vs xp I don't know weather upgrade up off of xp on to seven what do you guys think ? >> >> Rob >> Sent using BlackBerry® > > Why do you feel the need to keep asking questions about Windows here? 'Keep' asking questions? Has this person ever posted here before? > I for once don't have any expertise, and frankly, don't want to > acquire any. Well, running Windows under QEMU would be on-topic. (Specifically, I was trying to get USB host passthrough to work... needed at least one cherry-picked patch before it would stop coredumping.) > You are off topic, not for the first time I have to say. Oh, he *has* posted here before? My memory sucks this decade. From matthew.king at monnsta.net Fri Dec 4 08:28:03 2009 From: matthew.king at monnsta.net (Matthew King) Date: Fri, 04 Dec 2009 08:28:03 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] performance difference between a swap partition vs a swap file.>>>>> In-Reply-To: <87r5rbmxim.fsf@spindle.srvr.nix> (nix@esperi.org.uk's message of "Thu, 03 Dec 2009 23:46:25 +0000") References: <253e13910912011724l4fc9ef1em71cc41993d969d02@mail.gmail.com> <200912020951.14876.dylan@dylan.me.uk> <20091202095436.GA18744@steve.org.uk> <20091202104011.GB13063@phcomp.co.uk> <4B1645DA.1010801@alexsmith.org> <20091202164456.GA7512@annexia.org> <9f8092cc0912021011p4801fee8v714c8585b22e3906@mail.gmail.com> <9f8092cc0912021018n26436eaeh4a30471c9fe783c3@mail.gmail.com> <87r5rbmxim.fsf@spindle.srvr.nix> Message-ID: <87hbs7kuss.fsf@knight.monnsta.net> Nix writes: > Yeah, that's another major change: many real-world network buses are now > as fast as the internal buses of all but PCIe machines, and far faster > than physical disks. (Of course they're still shared between many > machines, but if you have *lots* of machines swapping hard enough to > saturate the *bus*, they're saturating *many* disks *each* with swap > activity. Unlikely.) So is the consensus then that swap should be to a remote machine's RAM? Perhaps a dedicated swap box or two per network. Matthew -- I must take issue with the term "a mere child", for it has been my invariable experience that the company of a mere child is infinitely preferable to that of a mere adult. -- Fran Lebowitz From addw at phcomp.co.uk Fri Dec 4 09:24:07 2009 From: addw at phcomp.co.uk (Alain Williams) Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2009 09:24:07 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] performance difference between a swap partition vs a swap file.>>>>> In-Reply-To: <87vdgnmxnm.fsf@spindle.srvr.nix> References: <253e13910912011724l4fc9ef1em71cc41993d969d02@mail.gmail.com> <200912020951.14876.dylan@dylan.me.uk> <20091202095436.GA18744@steve.org.uk> <20091202104011.GB13063@phcomp.co.uk> <4B1645DA.1010801@alexsmith.org> <20091202164456.GA7512@annexia.org> <9f8092cc0912021011p4801fee8v714c8585b22e3906@mail.gmail.com> <87vdgnmxnm.fsf@spindle.srvr.nix> Message-ID: <20091204092407.GJ8620@phcomp.co.uk> On Thu, Dec 03, 2009 at 11:43:25PM +0000, Nix wrote: > (If the system really was swapping so hard that even a shell couldn't > run at all, then how would you fix it even if you did have a getty > locked into memory? Presumably you need to load a shell and kill(1) as > well...) kill(1) is builtin to many shells so that things like: kill %2 work, but you will need enough memory to run ps/top/... (unless you enjoy exploring /proc with echo ....) -- Alain Williams Linux/GNU Consultant - Mail systems, Web sites, Networking, Programmer, IT Lecturer. +44 (0) 787 668 0256 http://www.phcomp.co.uk/ Parliament Hill Computers Ltd. Registration Information: http://www.phcomp.co.uk/contact.php Past chairman of UKUUG: http://www.ukuug.org/ #include From rich at annexia.org Fri Dec 4 14:48:35 2009 From: rich at annexia.org (Richard Jones) Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2009 14:48:35 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] [OFFTOPIC] Re: Vista vs seven In-Reply-To: <87aaxzmwly.fsf@spindle.srvr.nix> References: <224524288-1259839647-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1274287355-@bda124.bisx.produk.on.blackberry> <87aaxzmwly.fsf@spindle.srvr.nix> Message-ID: <20091204144835.GA20236@annexia.org> On Fri, Dec 04, 2009 at 12:06:01AM +0000, Nix wrote: > On 3 Dec 2009, JLMS verbalised: > > > On Thu, Dec 3, 2009 at 11:27 AM, wrote: > >> What are you opipions on windows 7 vs vista and over all both vs xp I don't know weather upgrade up off of xp on to seven what do you guys think ? > >> > >> Rob > >> Sent using BlackBerry® > > > > Why do you feel the need to keep asking questions about Windows here? > > 'Keep' asking questions? Has this person ever posted here before? Twice before. One of those times was also trolling about Windows 7. Rich. -- Richard Jones Red Hat From lesleyb at herlug.org.uk Fri Dec 4 17:20:33 2009 From: lesleyb at herlug.org.uk ('LesleyB ') Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2009 17:20:33 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] [OFFTOPIC] Re: Vista vs seven In-Reply-To: References: <224524288-1259839647-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1274287355-@bda124.bisx.produk.on.blackberry> <4B17DDCB.7050501@shrdlu.com> Message-ID: <20091204172033.GE12648@pgcroft.net> On Thu, Dec 03, 2009 at 03:51:53PM -0000, Walter Stanish wrote: > > Try Lanarkshire Blue, like Roquefort but half the price. > > A top tip, and much more digestible than windows. > > - A fellow cheese lover, who lived in the fabled & lactose-limited lands of the far east for a near-decade. I don't like blue cheese. I don't like blue cheese. L. From vchurchill at softwareshack.eu Fri Dec 4 17:35:44 2009 From: vchurchill at softwareshack.eu (Victor Churchill) Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2009 17:35:44 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] [OFFTOPIC] Re: Vista vs seven In-Reply-To: <20091204172033.GE12648@pgcroft.net> References: <224524288-1259839647-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1274287355-@bda124.bisx.produk.on.blackberry> <4B17DDCB.7050501@shrdlu.com> <20091204172033.GE12648@pgcroft.net> Message-ID: <6026496c0912040935w81c6ff4x8129ca93801be2ba@mail.gmail.com> 2009/12/4 LesleyB : > On Thu, Dec 03, 2009 at 03:51:53PM -0000, Walter Stanish wrote: >> > Try Lanarkshire Blue, like Roquefort but half the price. >> >> A top tip, and much more digestible than windows. >> >> - A fellow cheese lover, who lived in the fabled & lactose-limited lands of the far east for a near-decade. > > > I don't like blue cheese. > I don't like blue cheese. Quote from an old friend on eating out at a posh restaurant: "The Stilton was so mature it had gone blue twice." From james.dutton at gmail.com Fri Dec 4 21:05:25 2009 From: james.dutton at gmail.com (James Courtier-Dutton) Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2009 21:05:25 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Running Mac OS X programs on Linux Message-ID: Hi, We have wine to run windows programs on Linux, is there anything out there that lets one run Mac OS X x86 programs on Linux? Kind Regards James From co at chocabloc.net Fri Dec 4 23:00:15 2009 From: co at chocabloc.net (Colin Wright) Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2009 23:00:15 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Vista vs seven In-Reply-To: <893ec6980912031034g4d3fe49ctc55db7630a9c945d@mail.gmail.com> References: <224524288-1259839647-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1274287355-@bda124.bisx.produk.on.blackberry> <4B17A405.9060104@ourshack.com> <4B17C55C.1020408@chocabloc.net> <20091203171343.GC8620@phcomp.co.uk> <6026496c0912031030v5d222261s9e32569d9d53f9c6@mail.gmail.com> <893ec6980912031034g4d3fe49ctc55db7630a9c945d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Ditto. Sent from my iPhone On 3 Dec 2009, at 18:34, Joel Bernstein wrote: > 2009/12/3 Victor Churchill : >> I wondered why the OP thought to ask it here. > > Because the OP is a _troll_. It's somebody's idea of performance art. > > Evidence: new poster, only asks mis-spelled questions about Winblows, > has idiotic hotmail email address. If that doesn't trip your bozo > filter, what does?! > > Stop feeding the troll, please. > > /joel > -- > Gllug mailing list - Gllug at gllug.org.uk > http://lists.gllug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/gllug From co at chocabloc.net Fri Dec 4 23:50:18 2009 From: co at chocabloc.net (Colin Wright) Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2009 23:50:18 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Vista vs seven In-Reply-To: <6026496c0912031030v5d222261s9e32569d9d53f9c6@mail.gmail.com> References: <224524288-1259839647-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1274287355-@bda124.bisx.produk.on.blackberry> <4B17A405.9060104@ourshack.com> <4B17C55C.1020408@chocabloc.net> <20091203171343.GC8620@phcomp.co.uk> <6026496c0912031030v5d222261s9e32569d9d53f9c6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Yeah see I ask Linux relevan questions like how to operate Orca and Julius - and not a peep. Maybe I should have randomly mentioned Windows. Sent from my freecycled iPhone just to annoy everyone. Sent from my iPhone On 3 Dec 2009, at 18:30, Victor Churchill wrote: > 2009/12/3 Alain Williams : >> On Thu, Dec 03, 2009 at 02:04:12PM +0000, Colin Wright wrote: >>> Yes you are on X list. So if you ask about Y the answer will >>> always be > > Seemd inappropriate to me, and I wondered why the OP thought to ask it > here. It's like asking a vegetarian list about whether goose fat is > better than lard for roasting spuds. > -- > Gllug mailing list - Gllug at gllug.org.uk > http://lists.gllug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/gllug From john at technolalia.org Sat Dec 5 00:18:43 2009 From: john at technolalia.org (John Levin) Date: Sat, 05 Dec 2009 00:18:43 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Running Mac OS X programs on Linux In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B19A6E3.2010308@technolalia.org> On 04/12/2009 21:05, James Courtier-Dutton wrote: > Hi, > > We have wine to run windows programs on Linux, is there anything out > there that lets one run Mac OS X x86 programs on Linux? > > Kind Regards > > James In short, no. Long time since I looked at this, but the main problem is the proprietary graphics system Quartz. Of course, being Posix-compliant and BSD based, there's a wealth of free software ported inthe other direction - check out http://www.macports.org/ HTH John -- John Levin http://www.anterotesis.com From addw at phcomp.co.uk Sat Dec 5 16:31:42 2009 From: addw at phcomp.co.uk (Alain Williams) Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2009 16:31:42 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Help with wifi Message-ID: <20091205163142.GA14734@phcomp.co.uk> Outline: I have put in a wifi router at my parents' house, it works with http (port 80), but not https (port 443). The details: They are connected to the Internet via broadband provider tiscali/talk-talk. This connection also gives them television and the set top box has a UTP socket. Connect a PC to it and you get an IP address like: 80.44.162.XXX. They wanted more than one PC at a time connected and also Wifi so I got a TP-LINK TL-WA601G - this has one incoming UTP (that I connect to the set top box) and 4 outgoing UTPs, one of which is connected to a Ubuntu box - this works perfectly - I can connect anywhere: ssh, http, https. The TL-WA601G has a DHCP server, the Ubuntu box gets something in the range that I set up. The TL-WA601G also has wifi ability, my sister can connect from her Win XP laptop and browse the web without issue until, this is the issue, she tries to use https - at which point the connection times out. If she plugs her laptop into the TL-WA601G with a UTP cable - it all works, ie https works as well. I have not changed any of the NAT/firewall settings from default, I did not feel the need. I have looked through the settings many times and cannot see anything that talks about port numbers ... that I set anything. I am mystified. Why on wifi should port 80 work, but not port 443; but when directly plugged in - everthing work ? Any advice gratefully received. TIA -- Alain Williams Linux/GNU Consultant - Mail systems, Web sites, Networking, Programmer, IT Lecturer. +44 (0) 787 668 0256 http://www.phcomp.co.uk/ Parliament Hill Computers Ltd. Registration Information: http://www.phcomp.co.uk/contact.php Past chairman of UKUUG: http://www.ukuug.org/ #include From addw at phcomp.co.uk Sat Dec 5 16:38:51 2009 From: addw at phcomp.co.uk (Alain Williams) Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2009 16:38:51 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Help with wifi - CORRECTION In-Reply-To: <20091205163142.GA14734@phcomp.co.uk> References: <20091205163142.GA14734@phcomp.co.uk> Message-ID: <20091205163851.GB14734@phcomp.co.uk> I was looking at the wrong box, it is NOT a TL-WA601G, but a Dynamode BR-6004W-G-N Cable Broadband Router http://www.dynamode-drivers.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=69:br-6004w-g-n&catid=35:routers-cable&Itemid=53 Sorry On Sat, Dec 05, 2009 at 04:31:42PM +0000, Alain Williams wrote: > Outline: > I have put in a wifi router at my parents' house, it works with > http (port 80), but not https (port 443). > > The details: > They are connected to the Internet via broadband provider tiscali/talk-talk. > This connection also gives them television and the set top box has a UTP socket. > Connect a PC to it and you get an IP address like: 80.44.162.XXX. > > They wanted more than one PC at a time connected and also Wifi so I got a > TP-LINK TL-WA601G - this has one incoming UTP (that I connect to the set top box) > and 4 outgoing UTPs, one of which is connected to a Ubuntu box - this works > perfectly - I can connect anywhere: ssh, http, https. > > The TL-WA601G has a DHCP server, the Ubuntu box gets something in the range that > I set up. > > The TL-WA601G also has wifi ability, my sister can connect from her Win XP laptop > and browse the web without issue until, this is the issue, she tries to use > https - at which point the connection times out. > > If she plugs her laptop into the TL-WA601G with a UTP cable - it all works, > ie https works as well. > > I have not changed any of the NAT/firewall settings from default, I did not > feel the need. I have looked through the settings many times and cannot see anything > that talks about port numbers ... that I set anything. > > I am mystified. Why on wifi should port 80 work, but not port 443; > but when directly plugged in - everthing work ? > > Any advice gratefully received. > > TIA -- Alain Williams Linux/GNU Consultant - Mail systems, Web sites, Networking, Programmer, IT Lecturer. +44 (0) 787 668 0256 http://www.phcomp.co.uk/ Parliament Hill Computers Ltd. Registration Information: http://www.phcomp.co.uk/contact.php Past chairman of UKUUG: http://www.ukuug.org/ #include From co at chocabloc.net Sat Dec 5 18:51:10 2009 From: co at chocabloc.net (Colin Wright) Date: Sat, 05 Dec 2009 18:51:10 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Vista vs seven In-Reply-To: References: <224524288-1259839647-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1274287355-@bda124.bisx.produk.on.blackberry> <4B17A405.9060104@ourshack.com> <4B17C55C.1020408@chocabloc.net> <20091203171343.GC8620@phcomp.co.uk> <6026496c0912031030v5d222261s9e32569d9d53f9c6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B1AAB9E.2080105@chocabloc.net> Interesting. I mention Linux and the thread goes dead. There's much more passion about Windows. It's like that Blackadder episode when he keeps shouting MACBETH! at the actors and they start screaming and getting in a flap. WINDOWS! Colin Wright wrote: > Yeah see I ask Linux relevan questions like how to operate Orca and > Julius - and not a peep. Maybe I should have randomly mentioned Windows. > > Sent from my freecycled iPhone just to annoy everyone. > > Sent from my iPhone > > On 3 Dec 2009, at 18:30, Victor Churchill > wrote: > > >> 2009/12/3 Alain Williams : >> >>> On Thu, Dec 03, 2009 at 02:04:12PM +0000, Colin Wright wrote: >>> >>>> Yes you are on X list. So if you ask about Y the answer will >>>> always be >>>> >> Seemd inappropriate to me, and I wondered why the OP thought to ask it >> here. It's like asking a vegetarian list about whether goose fat is >> better than lard for roasting spuds. >> -- >> Gllug mailing list - Gllug at gllug.org.uk >> http://lists.gllug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/gllug >> From caroline.ford.work at googlemail.com Sat Dec 5 19:05:48 2009 From: caroline.ford.work at googlemail.com (Caroline Ford) Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2009 19:05:48 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Vista vs seven In-Reply-To: <4B1AAB9E.2080105@chocabloc.net> References: <224524288-1259839647-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1274287355-@bda124.bisx.produk.on.blackberry> <4B17A405.9060104@ourshack.com> <4B17C55C.1020408@chocabloc.net> <20091203171343.GC8620@phcomp.co.uk> <6026496c0912031030v5d222261s9e32569d9d53f9c6@mail.gmail.com> <4B1AAB9E.2080105@chocabloc.net> Message-ID: They won't reply as they only post to skive at work! top posting! MAC! WINDOWS! BSD! Posted from something spammy. 2009/12/5 Colin Wright > Interesting. I mention Linux and the thread goes dead. There's much more > passion about Windows. It's like that Blackadder episode when he keeps > shouting MACBETH! at the actors and they start screaming and getting in > a flap. > > WINDOWS! > > > Colin Wright wrote: > > Yeah see I ask Linux relevan questions like how to operate Orca and > > Julius - and not a peep. Maybe I should have randomly mentioned Windows. > > > > Sent from my freecycled iPhone just to annoy everyone. > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > On 3 Dec 2009, at 18:30, Victor Churchill > > wrote: > > > > > >> 2009/12/3 Alain Williams : > >> > >>> On Thu, Dec 03, 2009 at 02:04:12PM +0000, Colin Wright wrote: > >>> > >>>> Yes you are on X list. So if you ask about Y the answer will > >>>> always be > >>>> > >> Seemd inappropriate to me, and I wondered why the OP thought to ask it > >> here. It's like asking a vegetarian list about whether goose fat is > >> better than lard for roasting spuds. > >> -- > >> Gllug mailing list - Gllug at gllug.org.uk > >> http://lists.gllug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/gllug > >> > > -- > Gllug mailing list - Gllug at gllug.org.uk > http://lists.gllug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/gllug > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.gllug.org.uk/pipermail/gllug/attachments/20091205/94ee13f6/attachment.htm From general_email at technicalbloke.com Sat Dec 5 19:50:52 2009 From: general_email at technicalbloke.com (general_email at technicalbloke.com) Date: Sat, 05 Dec 2009 19:50:52 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Help with wifi - CORRECTION In-Reply-To: <20091205163851.GB14734@phcomp.co.uk> References: <20091205163142.GA14734@phcomp.co.uk> <20091205163851.GB14734@phcomp.co.uk> Message-ID: <4B1AB99C.3030607@technicalbloke.com> Alain Williams wrote: > I was looking at the wrong box, > > it is NOT a TL-WA601G, but a Dynamode BR-6004W-G-N Cable Broadband Router > > http://www.dynamode-drivers.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=69:br-6004w-g-n&catid=35:routers-cable&Itemid=53 > > Sorry > > On Sat, Dec 05, 2009 at 04:31:42PM +0000, Alain Williams wrote: > >> Outline: >> I have put in a wifi router at my parents' house, it works with >> http (port 80), but not https (port 443). >> >> The details: >> They are connected to the Internet via broadband provider tiscali/talk-talk. >> This connection also gives them television and the set top box has a UTP socket. >> Connect a PC to it and you get an IP address like: 80.44.162.XXX. >> >> They wanted more than one PC at a time connected and also Wifi so I got a >> TP-LINK TL-WA601G - this has one incoming UTP (that I connect to the set top box) >> and 4 outgoing UTPs, one of which is connected to a Ubuntu box - this works >> perfectly - I can connect anywhere: ssh, http, https. >> >> The TL-WA601G has a DHCP server, the Ubuntu box gets something in the range that >> I set up. >> >> The TL-WA601G also has wifi ability, my sister can connect from her Win XP laptop >> and browse the web without issue until, this is the issue, she tries to use >> https - at which point the connection times out. >> >> If she plugs her laptop into the TL-WA601G with a UTP cable - it all works, >> ie https works as well. >> >> I have not changed any of the NAT/firewall settings from default, I did not >> feel the need. I have looked through the settings many times and cannot see anything >> that talks about port numbers ... that I set anything. >> >> I am mystified. Why on wifi should port 80 work, but not port 443; >> but when directly plugged in - everthing work ? >> >> Any advice gratefully received. >> >> TIA >> > > Hmm, that's a puzzling one. My first hunch would be imperfect firmware that was inadequately tested before being shipped, esp as it's not a big name brand. I wonder if it's struggling to handle the WiFi encryption you have set (WPA2 right?) along side starting up https sessions and is running out of memory / crashing when it tries. Does it still happen with lesser / no encryption set? Cheers, Roger. From jjllmmss at googlemail.com Sat Dec 5 20:36:45 2009 From: jjllmmss at googlemail.com (JLMS) Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2009 20:36:45 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Vista vs seven In-Reply-To: References: <224524288-1259839647-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1274287355-@bda124.bisx.produk.on.blackberry> <4B17A405.9060104@ourshack.com> <4B17C55C.1020408@chocabloc.net> <20091203171343.GC8620@phcomp.co.uk> <6026496c0912031030v5d222261s9e32569d9d53f9c6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 11:50 PM, Colin Wright wrote: > Yeah see I ask Linux relevan questions like how to operate Orca and > Julius - and not a peep. Maybe I should have randomly mentioned Windows. > > Sent from my freecycled iPhone just to annoy everyone. > > Sent from my iPhone > Could it possibly be that nobody else in the list is using those apps? That in itself should be a clue. From co at chocabloc.net Sat Dec 5 20:51:39 2009 From: co at chocabloc.net (Colin Wright) Date: Sat, 05 Dec 2009 20:51:39 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Vista vs seven In-Reply-To: References: <224524288-1259839647-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1274287355-@bda124.bisx.produk.on.blackberry> <4B17A405.9060104@ourshack.com> <4B17C55C.1020408@chocabloc.net> <20091203171343.GC8620@phcomp.co.uk> <6026496c0912031030v5d222261s9e32569d9d53f9c6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B1AC7DB.3010600@chocabloc.net> It's nice to have a response though. I have asked around many places but no luck - something that I find a shame because many will be excluded. JLMS wrote: > On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 11:50 PM, Colin Wright wrote: > >> Yeah see I ask Linux relevan questions like how to operate Orca and >> Julius - and not a peep. Maybe I should have randomly mentioned Windows. >> >> Sent from my freecycled iPhone just to annoy everyone. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> > > > Could it possibly be that nobody else in the list is using those apps? > > That in itself should be a clue. > From chrisbell at 3966.ukfsn.org Sun Dec 6 08:37:11 2009 From: chrisbell at 3966.ukfsn.org (Chris Bell) Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2009 09:37:11 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Gllug] Vista vs seven In-Reply-To: <4B1AC7DB.3010600@chocabloc.net> Message-ID: On Sat 05 Dec, Colin Wright wrote: > > It's nice to have a response though. I have asked around many places but > no luck - something that I find a shame because many will be excluded. > Things to try include a Google search, which may point to a user correspondence list or wiki. (I have not even looked at either package). -- Chris Bell www.chrisbell.org.uk (was www.overview.demon.co.uk) Microsoft sells you Windows ... Linux gives you the whole house. From co at chocabloc.net Sun Dec 6 10:23:24 2009 From: co at chocabloc.net (Colin Wright) Date: Sun, 06 Dec 2009 10:23:24 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Vista vs seven In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B1B861C.1000509@chocabloc.net> HAHA! Yes I've tried Google someone told me about it the other day. Isn't it a maverlouse aparaaaatus... I can only really find manuals on these which I have found confusing. I have posted my questions on various forums but no response. I think it's like I said. These programmes don't really work. Thing is it's a bit like trying to install and set up Jaws if you are blind - atleast it used to be. You can't. You need someone who can see to set it up for you. So I suppose most people who use and need screen readers and voice recognition programmes wouldn't use Linux because they would need someone who doesn't need to use them to set it up for them. That's what I was hoping to do for someone but I think it's like I said - these are in theory projects. I haven't actually got a response from anyone that has used them - probably because they don't work. Cheers. Chris Bell wrote: > On Sat 05 Dec, Colin Wright wrote: > >> It's nice to have a response though. I have asked around many places but >> no luck - something that I find a shame because many will be excluded. >> >> > Things to try include a Google search, which may point to a user > correspondence list or wiki. (I have not even looked at either package). > > > From jjllmmss at googlemail.com Sun Dec 6 11:46:32 2009 From: jjllmmss at googlemail.com (JLMS) Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2009 11:46:32 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Vista vs seven In-Reply-To: <4B1B861C.1000509@chocabloc.net> References: <4B1B861C.1000509@chocabloc.net> Message-ID: On Sun, Dec 6, 2009 at 10:23 AM, Colin Wright wrote: > HAHA! Yes I've tried Google someone told me about it the other day. > Isn't it a maverlouse aparaaaatus... I can only really find manuals on > these which I have found confusing.  I have posted my questions on > various forums but no response. I think it's like I said. These > programmes don't really work. Thing is it's a bit like trying to install > and set up Jaws if you are blind - atleast it used to be. You can't. You > need someone who can see to set it up for you. So I suppose most people > who use and need screen readers and voice recognition programmes > wouldn't use Linux because they would need someone who doesn't need to > use them to set it up for them. That's what I was hoping to do for > someone but I think it's like I said - these are in theory projects. I > haven't actually got a response from anyone that has used them - > probably because they don't work. > > Cheers. Have you talked to the developers? Sometimes things that are obvious to an user escape completely the designer or developer.... From john at cornerstonelinux.co.uk Sun Dec 6 11:50:55 2009 From: john at cornerstonelinux.co.uk (John Edwards) Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2009 11:50:55 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Vista vs seven In-Reply-To: <4B1B861C.1000509@chocabloc.net> References: <4B1B861C.1000509@chocabloc.net> Message-ID: <20091206115055.GA17365@cornerstonelinux.co.uk> On Sun, Dec 06, 2009 at 10:23:24AM +0000, Colin Wright wrote: > HAHA! Yes I've tried Google someone told me about it the other day. > Isn't it a maverlouse aparaaaatus... I can only really find manuals on > these which I have found confusing. I have posted my questions on > various forums but no response. First page on Google when searching for 'orca mailing list' is the gnome-orca mailing list: http://mail.gnome.org/archives/orca-list/ If this the "Orca" you keep talking about? Try posting there. And please give them more details than you gave us. > I think it's like I said. These > programmes don't really work. Thing is it's a bit like trying to install > and set up Jaws if you are blind - atleast it used to be. You can't. You > need someone who can see to set it up for you. So I suppose most people > who use and need screen readers and voice recognition programmes > wouldn't use Linux because they would need someone who doesn't need to > use them to set it up for them. That's what I was hoping to do for > someone but I think it's like I said - these are in theory projects. I > haven't actually got a response from anyone that has used them - > probably because they don't work. It's amazing what conclusions you can reach with a sample size of 1. ps. Sorry about having to post to the list on this off-topic thread, but my off-list emails to him were ignored. -- #---------------------------------------------------------# | John Edwards Email: john at cornerstonelinux.co.uk | #---------------------------------------------------------# -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: Digital signature Url : http://lists.gllug.org.uk/pipermail/gllug/attachments/20091206/bd6daac1/attachment.pgp From chrisbell at 3966.ukfsn.org Sun Dec 6 11:58:17 2009 From: chrisbell at 3966.ukfsn.org (Chris Bell) Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2009 12:58:17 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Gllug] Orca and Julius, (was Vista vs seven) In-Reply-To: <4B1B861C.1000509@chocabloc.net> Message-ID: On Sun 06 Dec, Colin Wright wrote: > > HAHA! Yes I've tried Google someone told me about it the other day. A quick search found gnome-orca in the Debian distribution but no mention of Julius. Gnome-orca appears to be a scriptable screen reader. Julius apparently provides speech recognition. I have not used either, perhaps someone in GLLUG has some experience, but there may be more help available from RNIB. -- Chris Bell www.chrisbell.org.uk (was www.overview.demon.co.uk) Microsoft sells you Windows ... Linux gives you the whole house. From rw at shadow.org.uk Sun Dec 6 12:22:17 2009 From: rw at shadow.org.uk (Rich Walker) Date: Sun, 06 Dec 2009 12:22:17 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Mapping from disk block to LVM partitions Message-ID: Hi, Smartd finding disk errors on raid array recheck. Raid array is used for LVM. What's the fastest/easiest way to get from disk block number to LVM partition? cheers, Rich. -- rich walker | Shadow Robot Company | rw at shadow.org.uk technical director 251 Liverpool Road | skype: rich_at_shadow need a Hand? London N1 1LX | +44 20 7700 2487 http://www.shadowrobot.com/hand/ From co at chocabloc.net Sun Dec 6 12:32:05 2009 From: co at chocabloc.net (Colin Wright) Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2009 12:32:05 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Vista vs seven In-Reply-To: References: <4B1B861C.1000509@chocabloc.net> Message-ID: <77BE77BE-0001-4EEA-80D8-23AB816142F9@chocabloc.net> Hmm yes that's a good idea. I could find them a group to test on also. I was also wondering about that Simplicity OS , the system set up for older people to use a computer. It may have a working screen reader. Sent from my iPhone On 6 Dec 2009, at 11:46, JLMS wrote: > On Sun, Dec 6, 2009 at 10:23 AM, Colin Wright > wrote: >> HAHA! Yes I've tried Google someone told me about it the other day. >> Isn't it a maverlouse aparaaaatus... I can only really find manuals >> on >> these which I have found confusing. I have posted my questions on >> various forums but no response. I think it's like I said. These >> programmes don't really work. Thing is it's a bit like trying to >> install >> and set up Jaws if you are blind - atleast it used to be. You >> can't. You >> need someone who can see to set it up for you. So I suppose most >> people >> who use and need screen readers and voice recognition programmes >> wouldn't use Linux because they would need someone who doesn't need >> to >> use them to set it up for them. That's what I was hoping to do for >> someone but I think it's like I said - these are in theory >> projects. I >> haven't actually got a response from anyone that has used them - >> probably because they don't work. >> >> Cheers. > > > Have you talked to the developers? > > Sometimes things that are obvious to an user escape completely the > designer or developer.... > -- > Gllug mailing list - Gllug at gllug.org.uk > http://lists.gllug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/gllug From co at chocabloc.net Sun Dec 6 12:34:55 2009 From: co at chocabloc.net (Colin Wright) Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2009 12:34:55 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Vista vs seven In-Reply-To: <20091206115055.GA17365@cornerstonelinux.co.uk> References: <4B1B861C.1000509@chocabloc.net> <20091206115055.GA17365@cornerstonelinux.co.uk> Message-ID: <2B88A86E-A079-44B3-8FF9-08CD5BAF933D@chocabloc.net> I have. Don't get the sample comment. Read my original posts that had no response. He is still here. Didn't get your off list posts so don't take it personal innit. Sent from my iPhone On 6 Dec 2009, at 11:50, John Edwards wrote: > On Sun, Dec 06, 2009 at 10:23:24AM +0000, Colin Wright wrote: >> HAHA! Yes I've tried Google someone told me about it the other day. >> Isn't it a maverlouse aparaaaatus... I can only really find manuals >> on >> these which I have found confusing. I have posted my questions on >> various forums but no response. > > First page on Google when searching for 'orca mailing list' is > the gnome-orca mailing list: > http://mail.gnome.org/archives/orca-list/ > > If this the "Orca" you keep talking about? > > Try posting there. And please give them more details than you gave us. > > >> I think it's like I said. These >> programmes don't really work. Thing is it's a bit like trying to >> install >> and set up Jaws if you are blind - atleast it used to be. You >> can't. You >> need someone who can see to set it up for you. So I suppose most >> people >> who use and need screen readers and voice recognition programmes >> wouldn't use Linux because they would need someone who doesn't need >> to >> use them to set it up for them. That's what I was hoping to do for >> someone but I think it's like I said - these are in theory >> projects. I >> haven't actually got a response from anyone that has used them - >> probably because they don't work. > > It's amazing what conclusions you can reach with a sample size of 1. > > > ps. Sorry about having to post to the list on this off-topic thread, > but my off-list emails to him were ignored. > > > -- > #---------------------------------------------------------# > | John Edwards Email: john at cornerstonelinux.co.uk | > #---------------------------------------------------------# > -- > Gllug mailing list - Gllug at gllug.org.uk > http://lists.gllug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/gllug From john at cornerstonelinux.co.uk Sun Dec 6 13:00:24 2009 From: john at cornerstonelinux.co.uk (John Edwards) Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2009 13:00:24 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Vista vs seven In-Reply-To: <2B88A86E-A079-44B3-8FF9-08CD5BAF933D@chocabloc.net> References: <4B1B861C.1000509@chocabloc.net> <20091206115055.GA17365@cornerstonelinux.co.uk> <2B88A86E-A079-44B3-8FF9-08CD5BAF933D@chocabloc.net> Message-ID: <20091206130024.GB17365@cornerstonelinux.co.uk> On Sun, Dec 06, 2009 at 12:34:55PM +0000, Colin Wright wrote: > I have. Don't get the sample comment. Read my original posts that had > no response. >> First page on Google when searching for 'orca mailing list' is >> the gnome-orca mailing list: >> http://mail.gnome.org/archives/orca-list/ If you have posted to that mailing list, then you must have done it from a different email address because the archives don't have any record of your name or domain: http://www.google.com/custom?q=colin+wright&domains=mail.gnome.org&hq=inurl%3A%2Farchives%2Forca-list%2F&sitesearch=mail.gnome.org http://www.google.com/custom?q=chocabloc&domains=mail.gnome.org&hq=inurl%3A%2Farchives%2Forca-list%2F&sitesearch=mail.gnome.org (beware the long URLs) It may be that you have to subscribe to that mailing list before you are allowed to send to it. -- #---------------------------------------------------------# | John Edwards Email: john at cornerstonelinux.co.uk | #---------------------------------------------------------# -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: Digital signature Url : http://lists.gllug.org.uk/pipermail/gllug/attachments/20091206/9d2be61b/attachment.pgp From general_email at technicalbloke.com Sun Dec 6 14:11:55 2009 From: general_email at technicalbloke.com (general_email at technicalbloke.com) Date: Sun, 06 Dec 2009 14:11:55 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] [OT] Odd PSU / connector Message-ID: <4B1BBBAB.2060400@technicalbloke.com> Hi, I've just been gifted a nice little compact PC via freecycle, problem is there's no PSU. To make matters worse it has a strange round 4 pin connector (1cm diameter) which I'm not familiar with, I can only assume its 12v + 5v. Anyone have one of these spare or know where I might buy one? Assuming I can't find one and I have to jerry rig my own from an old ATX supply is there a standard way to wire these 12v/5v connectors? If not is there an easy way to figure it out? I don't want to fry the thing! Picture here... http://www.technicalbloke.com/12v5v.jpg It's the connector between the PS2's and the 2.5mm audio socket. Apologies for the ropey picture quality but I don't have a macro setting on my phone. Roger. From john at cornerstonelinux.co.uk Sun Dec 6 14:31:41 2009 From: john at cornerstonelinux.co.uk (John Edwards) Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2009 14:31:41 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] [OT] Odd PSU / connector In-Reply-To: <4B1BBBAB.2060400@technicalbloke.com> References: <4B1BBBAB.2060400@technicalbloke.com> Message-ID: <20091206143141.GC17365@cornerstonelinux.co.uk> On Sun, Dec 06, 2009 at 02:11:55PM +0000, general_email at technicalbloke.com wrote: > Hi, > > I've just been gifted a nice little compact PC via freecycle, problem is > there's no PSU. To make matters worse it has a strange round 4 pin > connector (1cm diameter) which I'm not familiar with, I can only assume > its 12v + 5v. Anyone have one of these spare or know where I might buy > one? Assuming I can't find one and I have to jerry rig my own from an > old ATX supply is there a standard way to wire these 12v/5v connectors? > If not is there an easy way to figure it out? I don't want to fry the thing! > > Picture here... http://www.technicalbloke.com/12v5v.jpg Looks like it might be a 4 pin "Snap and Lock": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DC_connector#Snap_and_lock_DC_power_connectors Though I have not seen this in the UK, and don't know where to buy replacement PSUs for them. -- #---------------------------------------------------------# | John Edwards Email: john at cornerstonelinux.co.uk | #---------------------------------------------------------# -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: Digital signature Url : http://lists.gllug.org.uk/pipermail/gllug/attachments/20091206/adebdefe/attachment.pgp From general_email at technicalbloke.com Sun Dec 6 15:28:43 2009 From: general_email at technicalbloke.com (general_email at technicalbloke.com) Date: Sun, 06 Dec 2009 15:28:43 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] [OT] Odd PSU / connector In-Reply-To: <20091206143141.GC17365@cornerstonelinux.co.uk> References: <4B1BBBAB.2060400@technicalbloke.com> <20091206143141.GC17365@cornerstonelinux.co.uk> Message-ID: <4B1BCDAB.6080907@technicalbloke.com> John Edwards wrote: > On Sun, Dec 06, 2009 at 02:11:55PM +0000, general_email at technicalbloke.com wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> I've just been gifted a nice little compact PC via freecycle, problem is >> there's no PSU. To make matters worse it has a strange round 4 pin >> connector (1cm diameter) which I'm not familiar with, I can only assume >> its 12v + 5v. Anyone have one of these spare or know where I might buy >> one? Assuming I can't find one and I have to jerry rig my own from an >> old ATX supply is there a standard way to wire these 12v/5v connectors? >> If not is there an easy way to figure it out? I don't want to fry the thing! >> >> Picture here... http://www.technicalbloke.com/12v5v.jpg >> > > Looks like it might be a 4 pin "Snap and Lock": > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DC_connector#Snap_and_lock_DC_power_connectors > > Though I have not seen this in the UK, and don't know where to > buy replacement PSUs for them. > > > Yep, that looks like the one, thanks John. I can't find a supplier for whole PSUs either although it looks like I can at least buy the plugs. It looks like there's no standard wiring for them either and neither the nominal manufacturer "Appliansys", or the actual manufacturer "Kink Yung HK" make any mention of this box on ther websites, let alone have any downloadable information about them :( So I guess I'm on my own. Would people agree it's quite likely to require +12v & +5v? Or is there a fair chance it's something else like -12v & + 12v. And can anyone suggest a strategy for testing it out without knackering it? or some things I can look for on the board to give me a clue? I think I can see which are the ground pins but sadly I'm no electronic expert :( Roger. From shannon.carver at gmail.com Sun Dec 6 16:12:03 2009 From: shannon.carver at gmail.com (Shannon Carver) Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2009 16:12:03 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] [OT] Odd PSU / connector In-Reply-To: <4B1BCDAB.6080907@technicalbloke.com> References: <4B1BBBAB.2060400@technicalbloke.com> <20091206143141.GC17365@cornerstonelinux.co.uk> <4B1BCDAB.6080907@technicalbloke.com> Message-ID: <41b78fc30912060812o62a9fc7di525aa81cec687eaf@mail.gmail.com> These are quite common on little integrated machines (obviously too small to fit a proper power supply in them.. I don't know enough about the characteristics of which cable does which, but a quick search around the house, I found on on my NAS (QNAP TS409Pro (4x SATA HDD's), an older SATA/IDE 3.5" disc enclosure, and a little tiny dell machine that I was going to use as a TV box for a bit, but never got around to it (SFF for use on a secretaries desk or similar).. Anyway, all the ones I have seem to have the same power output (12-17V at 10A) and I've swapped then around between appliances at least a few times (admittedly without thinking about possible consequences!). You may be able to pick up one with a HDD enclosure or something? Cheers Shannon Carver Email: shannon.carver at gmail.com 2009/12/6 general_email at technicalbloke.com > John Edwards wrote: > > On Sun, Dec 06, 2009 at 02:11:55PM +0000, > general_email at technicalbloke.com wrote: > > > >> Hi, > >> > >> I've just been gifted a nice little compact PC via freecycle, problem is > >> there's no PSU. To make matters worse it has a strange round 4 pin > >> connector (1cm diameter) which I'm not familiar with, I can only assume > >> its 12v + 5v. Anyone have one of these spare or know where I might buy > >> one? Assuming I can't find one and I have to jerry rig my own from an > >> old ATX supply is there a standard way to wire these 12v/5v connectors? > >> If not is there an easy way to figure it out? I don't want to fry the > thing! > >> > >> Picture here... http://www.technicalbloke.com/12v5v.jpg > >> > > > > Looks like it might be a 4 pin "Snap and Lock": > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DC_connector#Snap_and_lock_DC_power_connectors > > > > Though I have not seen this in the UK, and don't know where to > > buy replacement PSUs for them. > > > > > > > > Yep, that looks like the one, thanks John. I can't find a supplier for > whole PSUs either although it looks like I can at least buy the plugs. > It looks like there's no standard wiring for them either and neither the > nominal manufacturer "Appliansys", or the actual manufacturer "Kink Yung > HK" make any mention of this box on ther websites, let alone have any > downloadable information about them :( > > So I guess I'm on my own. Would people agree it's quite likely to > require +12v & +5v? Or is there a fair chance it's something else like > -12v & + 12v. And can anyone suggest a strategy for testing it out > without knackering it? or some things I can look for on the board to > give me a clue? I think I can see which are the ground pins but sadly > I'm no electronic expert :( > > Roger. > > -- > Gllug mailing list - Gllug at gllug.org.uk > http://lists.gllug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/gllug > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.gllug.org.uk/pipermail/gllug/attachments/20091206/84ababc3/attachment.htm From rich at annexia.org Sun Dec 6 16:14:03 2009 From: rich at annexia.org (Richard Jones) Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2009 16:14:03 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Mapping from disk block to LVM partitions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20091206161403.GA27187@annexia.org> On Sun, Dec 06, 2009 at 12:22:17PM +0000, Rich Walker wrote: > Smartd finding disk errors on raid array recheck. Raid array is used for > LVM. What's the fastest/easiest way to get from disk block number to LVM > partition? Not sure about "fastest" but I have spent quite a long time decoding LVM disk information a while back. The information is stored in plain text in the first few megabytes of the PV. Actually there are likely to be several copies, because the metadata is stored in a circular buffer, where new metadata is written after, not on top of, old metadata (so that there is some possibility of rolling back to earlier versions). The metadata itself is in plain text as I said, in a simple C-like recursive format. # pvs PV VG Fmt Attr PSize PFree /dev/dm-0 vg_trick lvm2 a- 931.31G 575.38G # strings /dev/dm-0 LABELONE LVM2 0013l0DTj3QUp1TfM5jzMbfX1PTt0cP8C9a LVM2 x[5A%r0N*> [...] # Generated by LVM2 version 2.02.45 (2009-03-03): Thu May 14 11:50:40 2009 contents = "Text Format Volume Group" version = 1 description = "" creation_host = "user-desktop.home.annexia.org" # Linux user-desktop.home.annexi a.org 2.6.29.1-102.fc11.x86_64 #1 SMP Mon Apr 20 15:33:38 EDT 2009 x86_64 creation_time = 1242298240 # Thu May 14 11:50:40 2009 vg_trick { id = "FPsBXd-JynR-HvhD-0FRI-Z8qe-5HrU-brjJYQ" seqno = 2 status = ["RESIZEABLE", "READ", "WRITE"] flags = [] extent_size = 8192 max_lv = 0 max_pv = 0 physical_volumes { pv0 { id = "3l0DTj-3QUp-1TfM-5jzM-bfX1-PTt0-cP8C9a" device = "/dev/dm-0" status = ["ALLOCATABLE"] flags = [] dev_size = 1953106424 pe_start = 384 pe_count = 238416 logical_volumes { lv_root { id = "bQDbMV-eEdv-JuE3-UxYw-GJPw-PlSb-UnaH7N" status = ["READ", "WRITE", "VISIBLE"] flags = [] segment_count = 1 segment1 { start_extent = 0 extent_count = 62500 type = "striped" stripe_count = 1 # linear stripes = [ "pv0", 0 .... It's possible with a bit of effort to go from this to the actual mapping of LVs to blocks on the disk, or vice versa. No idea if there is an easier way. It's the sort of thing that libguestfs could probably be extended to do ... Rich. -- Richard Jones Red Hat From rw at shadow.org.uk Sun Dec 6 16:32:48 2009 From: rw at shadow.org.uk (Rich Walker) Date: Sun, 06 Dec 2009 16:32:48 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Mapping from disk block to LVM partitions In-Reply-To: <20091206161403.GA27187@annexia.org> (Richard Jones's message of "Sun\, 6 Dec 2009 16\:14\:03 +0000") References: <20091206161403.GA27187@annexia.org> Message-ID: Richard Jones wrote: > > On Sun, Dec 06, 2009 at 12:22:17PM +0000, Rich Walker wrote: > > Smartd finding disk errors on raid array recheck. Raid array is used for > > LVM. What's the fastest/easiest way to get from disk block number to LVM > > partition? > > Not sure about "fastest" but I have spent quite a long time decoding > LVM disk information a while back. > > The information is stored in plain text in the first few megabytes of > the PV. Actually there are likely to be several copies, because the > metadata is stored in a circular buffer, where new metadata is written > after, not on top of, old metadata (so that there is some possibility > of rolling back to earlier versions). > > The metadata itself is in plain text as I said, in a simple C-like > recursive format. > > # pvs > PV VG Fmt Attr PSize PFree > /dev/dm-0 vg_trick lvm2 a- 931.31G 575.38G > > # strings /dev/dm-0 > LABELONE > LVM2 0013l0DTj3QUp1TfM5jzMbfX1PTt0cP8C9a > LVM2 x[5A%r0N*> > [...] > # Generated by LVM2 version 2.02.45 (2009-03-03): Thu May 14 11:50:40 2009 > contents = "Text Format Volume Group" > version = 1 > description = "" > creation_host = "user-desktop.home.annexia.org" # Linux user-desktop.home.annexi > a.org 2.6.29.1-102.fc11.x86_64 #1 SMP Mon Apr 20 15:33:38 EDT 2009 x86_64 > creation_time = 1242298240 # Thu May 14 11:50:40 2009 > vg_trick { > id = "FPsBXd-JynR-HvhD-0FRI-Z8qe-5HrU-brjJYQ" > seqno = 2 > status = ["RESIZEABLE", "READ", "WRITE"] > flags = [] > extent_size = 8192 > max_lv = 0 > max_pv = 0 > physical_volumes { > pv0 { > id = "3l0DTj-3QUp-1TfM-5jzM-bfX1-PTt0-cP8C9a" > device = "/dev/dm-0" > status = ["ALLOCATABLE"] > flags = [] > dev_size = 1953106424 > pe_start = 384 > pe_count = 238416 > logical_volumes { > lv_root { > id = "bQDbMV-eEdv-JuE3-UxYw-GJPw-PlSb-UnaH7N" > status = ["READ", "WRITE", "VISIBLE"] > flags = [] > segment_count = 1 > segment1 { > start_extent = 0 > extent_count = 62500 > type = "striped" > stripe_count = 1 # linear > stripes = [ > "pv0", 0 > .... > > It's possible with a bit of effort to go from this to the actual > mapping of LVs to blocks on the disk, or vice versa. > > No idea if there is an easier way. It's the sort of thing that > libguestfs could probably be extended to do ... > I was thinking "fastest" in the sense "most convenient over slow SSH connection". One of the outputs of lvs: # lvs -a --segments --verbose --units s Finding all logical volumes LV VG Attr Start SSize #Str Type Stripe Chunk BackupFromThoth V01 -wi-ao 0S 31457280S 1 linear 0S 0S GatewayMirror V01 -wi-ao 0S 62914560S 1 linear 0S 0S PlatoMirror V01 -wi-a- 0S 117440512S 1 linear 0S 0S HomeMirror V02 -wi-ao 0S 251658240S 1 linear 0S 0S HomeMirror V02 -wi-ao 251658240S 104857600S 1 linear 0S 0S Music V02 -wi-ao 0S 125829120S 1 linear 0S 0S Music V02 -wi-ao 125829120S 6324224S 1 linear 0S 0S Root V02 -wi-a- 0S 6291456S 1 linear 0S 0S Usr V02 -wi-a- 0S 10485760S 1 linear 0S 0S Var V02 -wi-a- 0S 10485760S 1 linear 0S 0S Video V02 -wi-ao 0S 77594624S 1 linear 0S 0S Video V02 -wi-ao 77594624S 20971520S 1 linear 0S 0S ocfs_test V02 -wi-a- 0S 104857600S 1 linear 0S 0S looks promising, but getting those Start numbers offset from the PV base? cheers, Rich. -- rich walker | Shadow Robot Company | rw at shadow.org.uk technical director 251 Liverpool Road | skype: rich_at_shadow need a Hand? London N1 1LX | +44 20 7700 2487 http://www.shadowrobot.com/hand/ From k.georgiou at imperial.ac.uk Sun Dec 6 17:53:05 2009 From: k.georgiou at imperial.ac.uk (Kostas Georgiou) Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2009 17:53:05 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Mapping from disk block to LVM partitions In-Reply-To: References: <20091206161403.GA27187@annexia.org> Message-ID: <20091206175304.GA15030@imperial.ac.uk> On Sun, Dec 06, 2009 at 04:32:48PM +0000, Rich Walker wrote: > I was thinking "fastest" in the sense "most convenient over slow SSH > connection". One of the outputs of lvs: > > # lvs -a --segments --verbose --units s > Finding all logical volumes > LV VG Attr Start SSize #Str Type Stripe Chunk > BackupFromThoth V01 -wi-ao 0S 31457280S 1 linear 0S 0S > GatewayMirror V01 -wi-ao 0S 62914560S 1 linear 0S 0S > PlatoMirror V01 -wi-a- 0S 117440512S 1 linear 0S 0S > HomeMirror V02 -wi-ao 0S 251658240S 1 linear 0S 0S > HomeMirror V02 -wi-ao 251658240S 104857600S 1 linear 0S 0S > Music V02 -wi-ao 0S 125829120S 1 linear 0S 0S > Music V02 -wi-ao 125829120S 6324224S 1 linear 0S 0S > Root V02 -wi-a- 0S 6291456S 1 linear 0S 0S > Usr V02 -wi-a- 0S 10485760S 1 linear 0S 0S > Var V02 -wi-a- 0S 10485760S 1 linear 0S 0S > Video V02 -wi-ao 0S 77594624S 1 linear 0S 0S > Video V02 -wi-ao 77594624S 20971520S 1 linear 0S 0S > ocfs_test V02 -wi-a- 0S 104857600S 1 linear 0S 0S > > looks promising, but getting those Start numbers offset from the PV > base? What about lvs -o +seg_pe_ranges or something like pvs -o pv_name,lv_name,pvseg_start,pvseg_size Kostas From cehunter at gb-x.org Sun Dec 6 23:56:30 2009 From: cehunter at gb-x.org (Christopher Hunter) Date: Sun, 06 Dec 2009 23:56:30 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Vista vs seven In-Reply-To: <224524288-1259839647-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1274287355-@bda124.bisx.produk.on.blackberry> References: <224524288-1259839647-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1274287355-@bda124.bisx.produk.on.blackberry> Message-ID: <1260143790.3859.15.camel@chris-laptop> On Thu, 2009-12-03 at 11:27 +0000, chiclets_lover at hotmail.co.uk wrote: > What are you opipions on windows 7 vs vista and over all both vs xp I don't know weather upgrade up off of xp on to seven what do you guys think ? > > Rob > Sent using BlackBerry® Are you posting to the right list? There is NO Microsoft product that has EVER worked entirely properly, and they have the gall to expect their users - who have been fooled into wasting lots of money on brokenware - to be their beta-testers! A guy I studied with many years ago (who mostly "assembled" the NT kernel at MS) always used to tell the story of the "development" of the NT kernel: - it was thrown together in a couple of weeks for demonstration purposes (for a trade show), and then put into production without any documentation, any proper, clean build or any testing... and it's the SAME damn kernel used today in Windows 7. He described it as "utterly broken and unmaintainable" in 1992... It's fun to put a KDE 4 desktop on a machine, and tell the prospective users that it's Windows 7. It's funny how their reluctance to try anything other than MS-ware is entirely overcome! It's also fun to give them the option at start-up of choosing the "Mac" option (Gnome)... C. From cehunter at gb-x.org Mon Dec 7 00:11:55 2009 From: cehunter at gb-x.org (Christopher Hunter) Date: Mon, 07 Dec 2009 00:11:55 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] [OFFTOPIC] Re: Vista vs seven In-Reply-To: <41b78fc30912030756v7d83bc04m8a925cad819db2f0@mail.gmail.com> References: <224524288-1259839647-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1274287355-@bda124.bisx.produk.on.blackberry> <41b78fc30912030645p19eb227fuc009ac745c2a2495@mail.gmail.com> <7891dd830912030702t137e5816g29bf112360e9a4cf@mail.gmail.com> <41b78fc30912030756v7d83bc04m8a925cad819db2f0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1260144715.3859.28.camel@chris-laptop> On Thu, 2009-12-03 at 15:56 +0000, Shannon Carver wrote: > Without a doubt, but I'd guarantee that a Windows mailing list would > be even more biased than here with Windows 7 zealots forcing their > opinions on Lowly Vista and XP Users! :P > > On topic, I'm a huge advocate of Windows 7 (when I'm forced to use a > Windows machine that is), it's speedier and less RAM hungry than > Windows Vista, and worlds above XP for usability and 64bit goodness > (I've never understood people's stance on staying with XP). > > I love cheese too, but unfortunately I've not had the pleasure of > trying the delicious sounded treats listed in this thread! I know it's wildly off-topic, but I was forced to "evaluate" Win 7 (against my better judgement). I was pleasantly surprised by how quickly it installed, and how quickly it started up (the first boot). Of course it came without any useful software, so I installed "Office" to it. It demanded a reboot, and took an age to start up this time (I later discovered that it enumerated the contents of the hard drive, and reported the list of software, both licensed and free-ware back to MS). Subsequent boots were a bit quicker, but adding software progressively increased the boot time (I can't think why...). This version is improved in that the BSOD has been replaced - you now get a spontaneous BLACK Screen Of Death. No key combination will let you break out of this state - you have to remove the power (on a laptop, you have to unplug the battery!). The next reboot (and every one after) will take ages... Once again, it's prone to every possible bit of malware out there - even many of the really old exploits (that had been patched in XP) give complete access to the machine. None of the "security" features are actually effective, and the third-party "anti-malware" snake-oil is entirely useless. It mostly fails to run older software - obviously in an effort to force users to shell out again for applications they have already paid for... It's just the same old NT turd, re-polished with a new set of faults! C. From addw at phcomp.co.uk Mon Dec 7 00:21:20 2009 From: addw at phcomp.co.uk (Alain Williams) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 00:21:20 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] [OFFTOPIC] Re: Vista vs seven In-Reply-To: <1260144715.3859.28.camel@chris-laptop> References: <224524288-1259839647-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1274287355-@bda124.bisx.produk.on.blackberry> <41b78fc30912030645p19eb227fuc009ac745c2a2495@mail.gmail.com> <7891dd830912030702t137e5816g29bf112360e9a4cf@mail.gmail.com> <41b78fc30912030756v7d83bc04m8a925cad819db2f0@mail.gmail.com> <1260144715.3859.28.camel@chris-laptop> Message-ID: <20091207002120.GG31315@phcomp.co.uk> On Mon, Dec 07, 2009 at 12:11:55AM +0000, Christopher Hunter wrote: > I know it's wildly off-topic, but I was forced to "evaluate" Win 7 > (against my better judgement). I was pleasantly surprised by how > quickly it installed, and how quickly it started up (the first boot). > Of course it came without any useful software, so I installed "Office" > to it. It demanded a reboot, and took an age to start up this time (I > later discovered that it enumerated the contents of the hard drive, and > reported the list of software, both licensed and free-ware back to MS). A MS machine can generally be tied back to an individual person, so this strikes me as a breach of personal privacy. Has anyone complained to the data protection registrar ? -- Alain Williams Linux/GNU Consultant - Mail systems, Web sites, Networking, Programmer, IT Lecturer. +44 (0) 787 668 0256 http://www.phcomp.co.uk/ Parliament Hill Computers Ltd. Registration Information: http://www.phcomp.co.uk/contact.php Past chairman of UKUUG: http://www.ukuug.org/ #include From cehunter at gb-x.org Mon Dec 7 00:26:16 2009 From: cehunter at gb-x.org (Christopher Hunter) Date: Mon, 07 Dec 2009 00:26:16 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] [OT] Odd PSU / connector In-Reply-To: <4B1BBBAB.2060400@technicalbloke.com> References: <4B1BBBAB.2060400@technicalbloke.com> Message-ID: <1260145576.3859.33.camel@chris-laptop> On Sun, 2009-12-06 at 14:11 +0000, general_email at technicalbloke.com wrote: > Hi, > > I've just been gifted a nice little compact PC via freecycle, problem is > there's no PSU. To make matters worse it has a strange round 4 pin > connector (1cm diameter) which I'm not familiar with, I can only assume > its 12v + 5v. Anyone have one of these spare or know where I might buy > one? Assuming I can't find one and I have to jerry rig my own from an > old ATX supply is there a standard way to wire these 12v/5v connectors? > If not is there an easy way to figure it out? I don't want to fry the thing! > > Picture here... http://www.technicalbloke.com/12v5v.jpg > > It's the connector between the PS2's and the 2.5mm audio socket. > Apologies for the ropey picture quality but I don't have a macro setting > on my phone. What brand is the computer? I had (historically) a mini-Elonex machine that had a connector similar to - but not quite the same as - that one. You might be able to get the info from the manufacturer's website. If it's 5 and 12 Volts, don't mess around with an AT PSU - you're going to have to fake the "power good" line, and most of them don't like having some of their rails unloaded... If you find out what voltages you need, I'll happily advise (off list) about constructing a suitable, simple, safe, cheap PSU! C. From martin at hinterlands.org Mon Dec 7 00:39:06 2009 From: martin at hinterlands.org (Martin A. Brooks) Date: Mon, 07 Dec 2009 00:39:06 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] [OFFTOPIC] Re: Vista vs seven In-Reply-To: <1260144715.3859.28.camel@chris-laptop> References: <224524288-1259839647-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1274287355-@bda124.bisx.produk.on.blackberry> <41b78fc30912030645p19eb227fuc009ac745c2a2495@mail.gmail.com> <7891dd830912030702t137e5816g29bf112360e9a4cf@mail.gmail.com> <41b78fc30912030756v7d83bc04m8a925cad819db2f0@mail.gmail.com> <1260144715.3859.28.camel@chris-laptop> Message-ID: <4B1C4EAA.6000007@hinterlands.org> On 07/12/2009 00:11, Christopher Hunter wrote: > This version is improved in that the BSOD has been replaced - you now > get a spontaneous BLACK Screen Of Death. No key combination will let > you break out of this state - you have to remove the power (on a > laptop, you have to unplug the battery!). The next reboot (and every > one after) will take ages... I do get occasional BSODs from Windows 7 as we have previously discussed. They're still blue. > Once again, it's prone to every possible bit of malware out there - even > many of the really old exploits (that had been patched in XP) give > complete access to the machine. Please state the sources of information you used to form this view. > It mostly fails to run older software - obviously in an effort to force > users to shell out again for applications they have already paid for... Please list all the software you have so far failed to get to work under Windows 7. Please note I'm interested in stuff that's failed to work for you, not stuff you read about on slashdot. From lucian at lastdot.org Mon Dec 7 04:35:32 2009 From: lucian at lastdot.org (Lucian @ lastdot.org) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 04:35:32 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Camcorders Message-ID: <5a3c8f450912062035l47a0d8eg7bbef90d7a3b9ead@mail.gmail.com> Hi guys, I want to buy a camcorder and I haven't owned one so far, I have no experience with such devices. I don't really need "HD" quality, but I'd like a cam that would work decently inside & outside and doesn't require any crapware installed on my PC. Could you do any "linux friendly" (my PC runs Centos only) recommendations that would fit a 200-300 quid budget? Thanks, Lucian From general_email at technicalbloke.com Mon Dec 7 07:06:14 2009 From: general_email at technicalbloke.com (general_email at technicalbloke.com) Date: Mon, 07 Dec 2009 07:06:14 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] [OT] Odd PSU / connector In-Reply-To: <1260145576.3859.33.camel@chris-laptop> References: <4B1BBBAB.2060400@technicalbloke.com> <1260145576.3859.33.camel@chris-laptop> Message-ID: <4B1CA966.3060701@technicalbloke.com> Christopher Hunter wrote: > On Sun, 2009-12-06 at 14:11 +0000, general_email at technicalbloke.com > wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> I've just been gifted a nice little compact PC via freecycle, problem is >> there's no PSU. To make matters worse it has a strange round 4 pin >> connector (1cm diameter) which I'm not familiar with, I can only assume >> its 12v + 5v. Anyone have one of these spare or know where I might buy >> one? Assuming I can't find one and I have to jerry rig my own from an >> old ATX supply is there a standard way to wire these 12v/5v connectors? >> If not is there an easy way to figure it out? I don't want to fry the thing! >> >> Picture here... http://www.technicalbloke.com/12v5v.jpg >> >> It's the connector between the PS2's and the 2.5mm audio socket. >> Apologies for the ropey picture quality but I don't have a macro setting >> on my phone. >> > > What brand is the computer? I had (historically) a mini-Elonex machine > that had a connector similar to - but not quite the same as - that one. > You might be able to get the info from the manufacturer's website. If > it's 5 and 12 Volts, don't mess around with an AT PSU - you're going to > have to fake the "power good" line, and most of them don't like having > some of their rails unloaded... If you find out what voltages you need, > I'll happily advise (off list) about constructing a suitable, simple, > safe, cheap PSU! > > C. > > > Hi Christopher, There manufacturer "Advansys" make no mention of that model on their website, from what I understand it's circa 2004. It's exactly the same as this one listed on ebay (perhaps literally)... http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Very-small-Computer-KnowledgeBox-Compact-By-Appliansys_W0QQitemZ320441303998QQcmdZViewItemQQimsxq20091028?IMSfp=TL091028187002r29295 I found a bunch of PSUs with the right plug on ebay but the ones that look chunky enough are about £40 a pop and there's a bunch of different wirings and voltages out there so I'm loath to risk it without some more concrete info / facts. I haven't had chance to call the company in office hours yet and there's still a slim chance the guy who gave it to me might find the PSU (he said it was his ex flatmates and he remembers it working at some point) so I'm still holding out some hope. Thanks for your offer of helping me build a PSU, I may well take you up on that if I ever determine the voltage and polarity it uses :) Roger. From tethys at gmail.com Mon Dec 7 10:17:42 2009 From: tethys at gmail.com (- Tethys) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 10:17:42 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Camcorders In-Reply-To: <5a3c8f450912062035l47a0d8eg7bbef90d7a3b9ead@mail.gmail.com> References: <5a3c8f450912062035l47a0d8eg7bbef90d7a3b9ead@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <264d99b00912070217k13d13d68xc745a1f873b7d7f@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 4:35 AM, Lucian @ lastdot.org wrote: > I'd like a cam that would work decently inside & outside and doesn't > require any crapware installed on my PC. > Could you do any "linux friendly" (my PC runs Centos only) > recommendations that would fit a 200-300 quid budget? I'm not aware of any that are truly Linux friendly. They all seem to record in encumbered formats. This isn't entirely surprising, but it does mean that to play back on CentOS, you'll need to install something like mplayer or find a gstreamer plugin to handle the appropriate audio and video codecs. I've been reasonably happy with my Panasonic SDR-S26. Quality isn't bad. It struggles a bit with bright reds being overexposed, and some jagged edges show up as compression artifacts, but overall it's pretty decent for the price. It writes MPEG video at 704x576 to a standard SD card and is only about 150 quid or so at the moment. Tet -- ?It seems intuitively obvious to me, which means that it might be wrong.? -- Chris Torek From matthew.king at monnsta.net Mon Dec 7 10:38:41 2009 From: matthew.king at monnsta.net (Matthew King) Date: Mon, 07 Dec 2009 10:38:41 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] [OFFTOPIC] Re: Vista vs seven In-Reply-To: <4B1C4EAA.6000007@hinterlands.org> (Martin A. Brooks's message of "Mon, 07 Dec 2009 00:39:06 +0000") References: <224524288-1259839647-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1274287355-@bda124.bisx.produk.on.blackberry> <41b78fc30912030645p19eb227fuc009ac745c2a2495@mail.gmail.com> <7891dd830912030702t137e5816g29bf112360e9a4cf@mail.gmail.com> <41b78fc30912030756v7d83bc04m8a925cad819db2f0@mail.gmail.com> <1260144715.3859.28.camel@chris-laptop> <4B1C4EAA.6000007@hinterlands.org> Message-ID: <87pr6rjcge.fsf@knight.monnsta.net> "Martin A. Brooks" writes: >> Once again, it's prone to every possible bit of malware out there - even >> many of the really old exploits (that had been patched in XP) give >> complete access to the machine. > > Please state the sources of information you used to form this view. > >> It mostly fails to run older software - obviously in an effort to force >> users to shell out again for applications they have already paid for... > > Please list all the software you have so far failed to get to work under > Windows 7. Please note I'm interested in stuff that's failed to work > for you, not stuff you read about on slashdot. Now that's just crazy talk. Why would anyone want to substantiate their Windows bashing? I was going to have something about insecurities and belief systems and the-other-guy bashing, but I really can't be bothered. Matthew -- I must take issue with the term "a mere child", for it has been my invariable experience that the company of a mere child is infinitely preferable to that of a mere adult. -- Fran Lebowitz From rw at shadow.org.uk Mon Dec 7 11:33:09 2009 From: rw at shadow.org.uk (Rich Walker) Date: Mon, 07 Dec 2009 11:33:09 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Mapping from disk block to LVM partitions In-Reply-To: <20091206175304.GA15030@imperial.ac.uk> (Kostas Georgiou's message of "Sun\, 6 Dec 2009 17\:53\:05 +0000") References: <20091206161403.GA27187@annexia.org> <20091206175304.GA15030@imperial.ac.uk> Message-ID: Kostas Georgiou wrote: > > What about lvs -o +seg_pe_ranges or something like > pvs -o pv_name,lv_name,pvseg_start,pvseg_size > The lvs option is good; still got to get from the PE ranges to the physical blocks... cheers, Rich. -- rich walker | Shadow Robot Company | rw at shadow.org.uk technical director 251 Liverpool Road | skype: rich_at_shadow need a Hand? London N1 1LX | +44 20 7700 2487 http://www.shadowrobot.com/hand/ From jason at ukfsn.org Mon Dec 7 11:53:04 2009 From: jason at ukfsn.org (Jason Clifford) Date: Mon, 07 Dec 2009 11:53:04 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Camcorders In-Reply-To: <5a3c8f450912062035l47a0d8eg7bbef90d7a3b9ead@mail.gmail.com> References: <5a3c8f450912062035l47a0d8eg7bbef90d7a3b9ead@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1260186784.3068.4.camel@L1> On Mon, 2009-12-07 at 04:35 +0000, Lucian @ lastdot.org wrote: > I want to buy a camcorder and I haven't owned one so far, I have no > experience with such devices. I don't really need "HD" quality, but > I'd like a cam that would work decently inside & outside and doesn't > require any crapware installed on my PC. > Could you do any "linux friendly" (my PC runs Centos only) > recommendations that would fit a 200-300 quid budget? Perhaps look for a straight forward Mini-DV camcorder with a firewire (ieee 1394) port and a similar port on your PC (you can buy one for very little). I have such a setup, bought many years ago, and it's great. I simply plug it into my PC, fire up kino and import/edit etc as I wish to. It's very simple and it works well. From rich at annexia.org Mon Dec 7 12:05:29 2009 From: rich at annexia.org (Richard Jones) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 12:05:29 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Mapping from disk block to LVM partitions In-Reply-To: References: <20091206161403.GA27187@annexia.org> <20091206175304.GA15030@imperial.ac.uk> Message-ID: <20091207120529.GA29283@annexia.org> On Mon, Dec 07, 2009 at 11:33:09AM +0000, Rich Walker wrote: > Kostas Georgiou wrote: > > > > > What about lvs -o +seg_pe_ranges or something like > > pvs -o pv_name,lv_name,pvseg_start,pvseg_size > > > > The lvs option is good; still got to get from the PE ranges to the physical > blocks... I'm a bit vague on this (it was well over a year ago that I looked at this), but aren't physical extents just 32 MB blocks of the physical disk, plus some small initial offset? You're more than welcome to trawl through the code I wrote which should answer this question. All the files 'diskimage_lvm2*.ml*' here: http://git.annexia.org/?p=virt-df.git;a=tree;f=lib;hb=HEAD Rich. -- Richard Jones Red Hat From general_email at technicalbloke.com Mon Dec 7 12:08:55 2009 From: general_email at technicalbloke.com (general_email at technicalbloke.com) Date: Mon, 07 Dec 2009 12:08:55 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Camcorders In-Reply-To: <1260186784.3068.4.camel@L1> References: <5a3c8f450912062035l47a0d8eg7bbef90d7a3b9ead@mail.gmail.com> <1260186784.3068.4.camel@L1> Message-ID: <4B1CF057.9000103@technicalbloke.com> Jason Clifford wrote: > On Mon, 2009-12-07 at 04:35 +0000, Lucian @ lastdot.org wrote: > >> I want to buy a camcorder and I haven't owned one so far, I have no >> experience with such devices. I don't really need "HD" quality, but >> I'd like a cam that would work decently inside & outside and doesn't >> require any crapware installed on my PC. >> Could you do any "linux friendly" (my PC runs Centos only) >> recommendations that would fit a 200-300 quid budget? >> > > Perhaps look for a straight forward Mini-DV camcorder with a firewire > (ieee 1394) port and a similar port on your PC (you can buy one for very > little). > > I have such a setup, bought many years ago, and it's great. I simply > plug it into my PC, fire up kino and import/edit etc as I wish to. > > It's very simple and it works well. > > The DV codec gives far better picture quality than most (allegedly HD) straight to card camcorders but I'm not sure I'd recommend anyone get into tape these days, it's unreliable and painfully linear. I doubt you'd need to install any crapware to read your files anyway, Kdenlive seems to read and write most everything and ffmpeg can convert most everything if need be. If you're a bolshy consumer then take a laptop down to Tottenham Court Road and ask to demo any units you're interested in til you find one that works nice ;) Roger. From itsbruce at workshy.org Mon Dec 7 12:43:46 2009 From: itsbruce at workshy.org (Bruce Richardson) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 12:43:46 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] [OFFTOPIC] Re: Vista vs seven In-Reply-To: <4B184AF1.8030401@hinterlands.org> References: <224524288-1259839647-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1274287355-@bda124.bisx.produk.on.blackberry> <4B184AF1.8030401@hinterlands.org> Message-ID: <20091207124346.GA7201@phaistos.bruce> On Thu, Dec 03, 2009 at 11:34:09PM +0000, Martin wrote: > > If you feel a thread is wandering inappropriately off-topic for your > liking, please contact the list administrators directly with your > concerns. Doing this on-list can only make us drift further away from > those boundaries you feel comfortable with. I can't say I'd like a list where people just went off list to the admins and then topics were secretly frozen or people banned without explanation. What is this undefined off-list appeal process supposed to achieve? -- Bruce Explota!: miles de lemmings no pueden estar equivocados. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: Digital signature Url : http://lists.gllug.org.uk/pipermail/gllug/attachments/20091207/eaefd635/attachment.pgp From k.georgiou at imperial.ac.uk Mon Dec 7 13:16:52 2009 From: k.georgiou at imperial.ac.uk (Kostas Georgiou) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 13:16:52 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Mapping from disk block to LVM partitions In-Reply-To: <20091207120529.GA29283@annexia.org> References: <20091206161403.GA27187@annexia.org> <20091206175304.GA15030@imperial.ac.uk> <20091207120529.GA29283@annexia.org> Message-ID: <20091207131652.GA16948@imperial.ac.uk> On Mon, Dec 07, 2009 at 12:05:29PM +0000, Richard Jones wrote: > On Mon, Dec 07, 2009 at 11:33:09AM +0000, Rich Walker wrote: > > Kostas Georgiou wrote: > > > > > > > > What about lvs -o +seg_pe_ranges or something like > > > pvs -o pv_name,lv_name,pvseg_start,pvseg_size > > > > > > > The lvs option is good; still got to get from the PE ranges to the physical > > blocks... > > I'm a bit vague on this (it was well over a year ago that I looked at > this), but aren't physical extents just 32 MB blocks of the physical > disk, plus some small initial offset? Each pv can have a different initial offset so pvs -o pv_name,pe_start is your friend. The pe size is a power of two and it's always the same in a vg so vgs -o vg_name,vg_extent_size It's not uncommon to play with both in order to get better alignment of the logical volumes in a raid controller so don't trust the defaults. Kostas From johngeoffreywalker at yahoo.co.uk Mon Dec 7 18:55:00 2009 From: johngeoffreywalker at yahoo.co.uk (John G Walker) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 18:55:00 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Camcorders In-Reply-To: <264d99b00912070217k13d13d68xc745a1f873b7d7f@mail.gmail.com> References: <5a3c8f450912062035l47a0d8eg7bbef90d7a3b9ead@mail.gmail.com> <264d99b00912070217k13d13d68xc745a1f873b7d7f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20091207185500.0883f4b4@Rosebud.Harmony> On Mon, 7 Dec 2009 10:17:42 +0000 - Tethys wrote: > I'm not aware of any that are truly Linux friendly. They all seem to > record in encumbered formats. This isn't entirely surprising, but it > does mean that to play back on CentOS, you'll need to install > something like mplayer or find a gstreamer plugin to handle the > appropriate audio and video codecs. I have a Sony HandyCam which records in mpg format and looks like an external disk to my SuSE PC. I thought that's what they all did these days. I'm fine with this camcorder, but I daresay there are others which are equally good and there may be better value for money out there. I'm not an expert and I haven't fully investigated. I just bought the best one that seemed to be on offer when I went looking for one, -- All the best, John From abuse at cabal.org.uk Mon Dec 7 10:57:22 2009 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 10:57:22 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Vista vs seven In-Reply-To: <1260143790.3859.15.camel@chris-laptop> References: <224524288-1259839647-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1274287355-@bda124.bisx.produk.on.blackberry> <1260143790.3859.15.camel@chris-laptop> Message-ID: <886FDE11-99DA-428C-AA2F-15DB98FE76AD@cabal.org.uk> On 6 Dec 2009, at 23:56, Christopher Hunter wrote: [...] > Are you posting to the right list? There is NO Microsoft product that > has EVER worked entirely properly, Nonsense. Their mice work just fine. From abuse at cabal.org.uk Mon Dec 7 12:56:31 2009 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 12:56:31 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] [OFFTOPIC] Re: Vista vs seven In-Reply-To: <20091207124346.GA7201@phaistos.bruce> References: <224524288-1259839647-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1274287355-@bda124.bisx.produk.on.blackberry> <4B184AF1.8030401@hinterlands.org> <20091207124346.GA7201@phaistos.bruce> Message-ID: On 7 Dec 2009, at 12:43, Bruce Richardson wrote: [...] > I can't say I'd like a list where people just went off list to the > admins and then topics were secretly frozen or people banned without > explanation. What is this undefined off-list appeal process supposed > to achieve? It cracks people's heads together without causing an off-topic firestorm of meta-discussion on the list. Having observed it in action on previous occasions, I feel it works well. From peterachilds at gmail.com Mon Dec 7 20:05:42 2009 From: peterachilds at gmail.com (Peter Childs) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 20:05:42 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Vista vs seven In-Reply-To: <886FDE11-99DA-428C-AA2F-15DB98FE76AD@cabal.org.uk> References: <224524288-1259839647-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1274287355-@bda124.bisx.produk.on.blackberry> <1260143790.3859.15.camel@chris-laptop> <886FDE11-99DA-428C-AA2F-15DB98FE76AD@cabal.org.uk> Message-ID: 2009/12/7 Peter Corlett : > On 6 Dec 2009, at 23:56, Christopher Hunter wrote: > [...] >> Are you posting to the right list?  There is NO Microsoft product that >> has EVER worked entirely properly, > > Nonsense. Their mice work just fine. > > > -- > Gllug mailing list  -  Gllug at gllug.org.uk > http://lists.gllug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/gllug > In fact most Microsoft hardware is not bad, its the software thats so terrible. But then I suppose they need to create good hardware so they can demonstrate how terrible the software really is! Peter. From lucian at lastdot.org Mon Dec 7 21:32:21 2009 From: lucian at lastdot.org (Lucian @ lastdot.org) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 21:32:21 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Camcorders In-Reply-To: <20091207185500.0883f4b4@Rosebud.Harmony> References: <5a3c8f450912062035l47a0d8eg7bbef90d7a3b9ead@mail.gmail.com> <264d99b00912070217k13d13d68xc745a1f873b7d7f@mail.gmail.com> <20091207185500.0883f4b4@Rosebud.Harmony> Message-ID: <5a3c8f450912071332na173a28ha82d7f0709c178bd@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 6:55 PM, John G Walker wrote: > > > On Mon, 7 Dec 2009 10:17:42 +0000 - Tethys wrote: > >> I'm not aware of any that are truly Linux friendly. They all seem to >> record in encumbered formats. This isn't entirely surprising, but it >> does mean that to play back on CentOS, you'll need to install >> something like mplayer or find a gstreamer plugin to handle the >> appropriate audio and video codecs. > > > I have a Sony HandyCam which records in mpg format and looks like an > external disk to my SuSE PC. I thought that's what they all did these > days. > > I'm fine with this camcorder, but I daresay there are others which are > equally good and there may be better value for money out there. I'm not > an expert and I haven't fully investigated. I just bought the best one > that seemed to be on offer when I went looking for one, > > > -- >  All the best, >  John > -- > Gllug mailing list  -  Gllug at gllug.org.uk > http://lists.gllug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/gllug > Thanks guys for all your replies, they will be taken into account. I will let you know if and what purchase I make :-) From martin at hinterlands.org Mon Dec 7 21:36:37 2009 From: martin at hinterlands.org (Martin A. Brooks) Date: Mon, 07 Dec 2009 21:36:37 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] [OFFTOPIC] Re: Vista vs seven In-Reply-To: <20091207124346.GA7201@phaistos.bruce> References: <224524288-1259839647-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1274287355-@bda124.bisx.produk.on.blackberry> <4B184AF1.8030401@hinterlands.org> <20091207124346.GA7201@phaistos.bruce> Message-ID: <4B1D7565.1060708@hinterlands.org> On 07/12/2009 12:43, Bruce Richardson wrote: > On Thu, Dec 03, 2009 at 11:34:09PM +0000, Martin wrote: >> >> If you feel a thread is wandering inappropriately off-topic for your >> liking, please contact the list administrators directly with your >> concerns. Doing this on-list can only make us drift further away from >> those boundaries you feel comfortable with. > > I can't say I'd like a list where people just went off list to the > admins and then topics were secretly frozen or people banned without > explanation. What is this undefined off-list appeal process supposed to > achieve? The undefined off-list appeal process isn't supposed to achieve anything because it doesn't exist. I just can't imagine that we want a list full of debate of what is or is not ontopic. Feel free to publically correct me on this if otherwise, you know I have the deepest respect for your opinions. From memory, topic freezes have been very openly declared on-list, and James Camalyn worked very hard to get himself very publicly banned from this list, the only such person I can recall having managed it. From martin at hinterlands.org Mon Dec 7 21:47:01 2009 From: martin at hinterlands.org (Martin A. Brooks) Date: Mon, 07 Dec 2009 21:47:01 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] [OFFTOPIC] Re: Vista vs seven In-Reply-To: References: <224524288-1259839647-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1274287355-@bda124.bisx.produk.on.blackberry> <4B184AF1.8030401@hinterlands.org> <20091207124346.GA7201@phaistos.bruce> Message-ID: <4B1D77D5.5060100@hinterlands.org> On 07/12/2009 12:56, Peter Corlett wrote: > It cracks people's heads together without causing an off-topic > firestorm of meta-discussion on the list. Having observed it in action > on previous occasions, I feel it works well. Actually the occasion you refer to was a little different. I had very publicly asked for a particular thread to be dropped, and a few souls continued to argue, or be unhelpful, onlist. I sent an email to all the parties concerned explaining why their contributions were causing a problem. To their credit, all the people concerned took the hint and have continued to be valued members of the list. From martin at hinterlands.org Mon Dec 7 21:49:27 2009 From: martin at hinterlands.org (Martin A. Brooks) Date: Mon, 07 Dec 2009 21:49:27 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] [OFFTOPIC] Re: Vista vs seven In-Reply-To: <4B1D7565.1060708@hinterlands.org> References: <224524288-1259839647-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1274287355-@bda124.bisx.produk.on.blackberry> <4B184AF1.8030401@hinterlands.org> <20091207124346.GA7201@phaistos.bruce> <4B1D7565.1060708@hinterlands.org> Message-ID: <4B1D7867.4080207@hinterlands.org> On 07/12/2009 21:36, Martin A. Brooks wrote: > From memory, topic freezes have been very openly declared on-list, and > James Camalyn worked very hard to get himself very publicly banned from > this list, the only such person I can recall having managed it. Incidentally, hello James! I'm well aware that you've rejoined the list under a new domain name, but now you're doing what we asked you to do all along, so you're a very welcome member of the list :) From damion.yates at gmail.com Mon Dec 7 21:58:33 2009 From: damion.yates at gmail.com (damion.yates at gmail.com) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 21:58:33 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Gllug] Camcorders In-Reply-To: <1260186784.3068.4.camel@L1> References: <5a3c8f450912062035l47a0d8eg7bbef90d7a3b9ead@mail.gmail.com> <1260186784.3068.4.camel@L1> Message-ID: On Mon, 7 Dec 2009, Jason Clifford wrote: > On Mon, 2009-12-07 at 04:35 +0000, Lucian @ lastdot.org wrote: > > I want to buy a camcorder and I haven't owned one so far, I have no > > experience with such devices. I don't really need "HD" quality, but > > I'd like a cam that would work decently inside & outside and doesn't > > require any crapware installed on my PC. Could you do any "linux > > friendly" (my PC runs Centos only) recommendations that would fit a > > 200-300 quid budget? > > Perhaps look for a straight forward Mini-DV camcorder with a firewire > (ieee 1394) port and a similar port on your PC (you can buy one for > very little). > > I have such a setup, bought many years ago, and it's great. I simply > plug it into my PC, fire up kino and import/edit etc as I wish to. > > It's very simple and it works well. I completely agree with this. I very recently got £150 sony minidv after my last one (~£250 6 years ago) broke. I tried out several options and realised MiniDV SD is the best (okay to be fair I gain compatibility with some existing tapes, but I was able/willing to switch to HDD or SD), Especially when taking price in to account. My 2nd daughter's home birth was filmed in HD with a MiniDV compatible camera, the dvgrab cmdline tool created mpeg4/aac .ts (mpeg transport streams) which play unaltered on my PS3, I'd need to transcode to something else to do NLE. If money wasn't an issue I'd go MiniDV HD but check for one good at low-light. Some notes: - A lot are terrible quality in low-light. Even just indoors in an evening with the lights on. - Ultimately as you need to review what you've filmed, you'll need to play through a whole video and do some NLE (I like Kino), so the linear tape drawback of MiniDV is minor, especially as they are VERY low cost for one of the best quality video captures you'll see. - Definitely avoid MiniDVD, there are almost no reasons these ones are good. - You'll find ffmpeg and friends will be able to convert anything, from any camera you can buy (really don't assume this is actually any easier in MacOS/Windows either) to DV format for editing in kino. - HD makes really large files which are hard to store and edit for no real gain (are you that good a director/cameraman?) at massive price increase. I've been doing video stuff for leasure, on Linux only, for years, Making SVCDs then DVDs with fancy menus etc. I now just leave files on my DNLA serving NAS for playback on the PS3. Its is a very time consuming hobby, especially making stuff work on Linux, however I have friends with Windows and MacOS and it _really_ doesn't get any easier. Damion From co at chocabloc.net Mon Dec 7 23:46:04 2009 From: co at chocabloc.net (co at chocabloc.net) Date: Mon, 07 Dec 2009 23:46:04 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] [OFFTOPIC] Re: Vista vs seven In-Reply-To: <4B1D7867.4080207@hinterlands.org> References: <224524288-1259839647-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1274287355-@bda124.bisx.produk.on.blackberry> <4B184AF1.8030401@hinterlands.org> <20091207124346.GA7201@phaistos.bruce> <4B1D7565.1060708@hinterlands.org> <4B1D7867.4080207@hinterlands.org> Message-ID: <20091207234604.l7s21opjkcsg0wg8@chocabloc.net> I actually find this group qute narky, cliquey and bitchy. I think you are only welcome in this group if you like wanking over binary, and monochrome binary at that. I joined this group so that I could learn about Linux and help people like my self to use it. I'll tell you one think that Windows does that Linux can't - it can be easily accessable to disabled people though the use of screen readers and speach recognition programmes. I am interested in finding out more but this is not the place. This is a bitch list for people who think they are ubergeeks to pour scorn and hate on those that don't know enough or follow their party line. If I meet someone who wants to learn more I do my best to help them. I don't beat up on them. Or put barriers in their way. I think great - and do what I can to help and encourage them to learn And BTW bottom posting is horrible if you are like me and rely on a screen reader. I have to sit through the entire list of previous messages before I get to the answer. Gloss over every time it his >> it says 'greater greater'. I've left so you may now slag me off. Quoting "Martin A. Brooks" : > On 07/12/2009 21:36, Martin A. Brooks wrote: >> From memory, topic freezes have been very openly declared on-list, and >> James Camalyn worked very hard to get himself very publicly banned from >> this list, the only such person I can recall having managed it. > > Incidentally, hello James! > > I'm well aware that you've rejoined the list under a new domain name, > but now you're doing what we asked you to do all along, so you're a very > welcome member of the list :) > -- > Gllug mailing list - Gllug at gllug.org.uk > http://lists.gllug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/gllug > From sta296 at astradyne.co.uk Tue Dec 8 00:08:47 2009 From: sta296 at astradyne.co.uk (Tethys) Date: Tue, 08 Dec 2009 00:08:47 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] [OFFTOPIC] Re: Vista vs seven In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 07 Dec 2009 23:46:04 GMT." <20091207234604.l7s21opjkcsg0wg8@chocabloc.net> References: <224524288-1259839647-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1274287355-@bda124.bisx.produk.on.blackberry> <4B184AF1.8030401@hinterlands.org> <20091207124346.GA7201@phaistos.bruce> <4B1D7565.1060708@hinterlands.org> <4B1D7867.4080207@hinterlands.org> <20091207234604.l7s21opjkcsg0wg8@chocabloc.net> Message-ID: <200912080008.nB808lZJ007513@leto.astradyne.corp> -------- co at chocabloc.net writes: >And BTW bottom posting is horrible if you are like me and rely on a >screen reader. Bottom posting is horrible full stop. If anything, it's even worse than top posting. Trimmed inline replies are what we advocate, and for good reason. As an aside, I'd call ">>" reading as "greater greater" a bug in your screen reader. Surely, making it aware of the common quoting conventions would be a big win. You might want to mention it to your screen reader vendor. It could improve your email experience significantly. Tet From martin at hinterlands.org Tue Dec 8 00:16:34 2009 From: martin at hinterlands.org (Martin A. Brooks) Date: Tue, 08 Dec 2009 00:16:34 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] [OFFTOPIC] Re: Vista vs seven In-Reply-To: <20091207234604.l7s21opjkcsg0wg8@chocabloc.net> References: <224524288-1259839647-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1274287355-@bda124.bisx.produk.on.blackberry> <4B184AF1.8030401@hinterlands.org> <20091207124346.GA7201@phaistos.bruce> <4B1D7565.1060708@hinterlands.org> <4B1D7867.4080207@hinterlands.org> <20091207234604.l7s21opjkcsg0wg8@chocabloc.net> Message-ID: <4B1D9AE2.6000206@hinterlands.org> On 07/12/2009 23:46, co at chocabloc.net wrote: > I actually find this group qute narky, cliquey and bitchy. I think you > are only welcome in this group if you like wanking over binary, and > monochrome binary at that. It has to be fairly hardcore binary. > > I joined this group so that I could learn about Linux and help people > like my self to use it. I'll tell you one think that Windows does that > Linux can't - it can be easily accessable to disabled people though > the use of screen readers and speach recognition programmes. I am > interested in finding out more but this is not the place. This is a > bitch list for people who think they are ubergeeks to pour scorn and > hate on those that don't know enough or follow their party line. > > If I meet someone who wants to learn more I do my best to help them. I > don't beat up on them. Or put barriers in their way. I think great - > and do what I can to help and encourage them to learn > > And BTW bottom posting is horrible if you are like me and rely on a > screen reader. I have to sit through the entire list of previous > messages before I get to the answer. Gloss over every time it his>> > it says 'greater greater'. Ahh no, you're not going to get that one overlooked. If Windows is "easily accessable to disabled people though the use of screen readers and speach recognition programmes" (your own words), then how come you have to "Gloss over every time it his >> it says 'greater greater'." (also your own words). See also: http://blog.dorward.me.uk/2009/11/23/screen-readers-and-top-posting-vs-mutt.html > I've left so you may now slag me off. Your choice. From general_email at technicalbloke.com Tue Dec 8 00:59:49 2009 From: general_email at technicalbloke.com (general_email at technicalbloke.com) Date: Tue, 08 Dec 2009 00:59:49 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] [OFFTOPIC] Re: Vista vs seven In-Reply-To: <20091207234604.l7s21opjkcsg0wg8@chocabloc.net> References: <224524288-1259839647-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1274287355-@bda124.bisx.produk.on.blackberry> <4B184AF1.8030401@hinterlands.org> <20091207124346.GA7201@phaistos.bruce> <4B1D7565.1060708@hinterlands.org> <4B1D7867.4080207@hinterlands.org> <20091207234604.l7s21opjkcsg0wg8@chocabloc.net> Message-ID: <4B1DA505.6050406@technicalbloke.com> co at chocabloc.net wrote: > I actually find this group qute narky, cliquey and bitchy. I think you > are only welcome in this group if you like wanking over binary, and > monochrome binary at that. > > It's a tech mailing list / newsgroup, what do you expect? Haven't you noticed that geeks can be quite spikey, edgy, defensive, pedantic, short tempered people? This isn't universal by a long stretch but there's a definite tendency / undercurrent, I found it thoroughly trying during 3 years of Soft Eng but cest la vie. I'm not trying to excuse such antisocial behaviour but that's what its always been like online, at least since I first went on usenet circa '94. If you can stay polite, thoughtful and vaguely on topic people will be mostly polite and helpful in return. Also, you oughtn't take it too personally if someone tears a strip off you, some groups have a few resident dobermans you just need to ignore, it's par for the course. If you think this group's pitbulls are bad check out "Jerry Stuckle" in comp.lang.php! Also, top posting is deeply irritating to many, if not most, please don't do it ;) Roger. PS: You will find Ubuntu's forums far more friendly but you're not going to get access to the same calibre of gristled, wise, battle worn sysadmin / hacker there as you have here. From cehunter at gb-x.org Tue Dec 8 08:09:31 2009 From: cehunter at gb-x.org (Christopher Hunter) Date: Tue, 08 Dec 2009 08:09:31 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Vista vs seven In-Reply-To: <886FDE11-99DA-428C-AA2F-15DB98FE76AD@cabal.org.uk> References: <224524288-1259839647-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1274287355-@bda124.bisx.produk.on.blackberry> <1260143790.3859.15.camel@chris-laptop> <886FDE11-99DA-428C-AA2F-15DB98FE76AD@cabal.org.uk> Message-ID: <1260259771.3345.16.camel@chris-laptop> On Mon, 2009-12-07 at 10:57 +0000, Peter Corlett wrote: > On 6 Dec 2009, at 23:56, Christopher Hunter wrote: > [...] > > Are you posting to the right list? There is NO Microsoft product that > > has EVER worked entirely properly, > > Nonsense. Their mice work just fine. "Their" mice and keyboards are made by other companies, so just have an MS badge tacked on, so they aren't really MS products at all! C. From cehunter at gb-x.org Tue Dec 8 08:28:06 2009 From: cehunter at gb-x.org (Christopher Hunter) Date: Tue, 08 Dec 2009 08:28:06 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] [OFFTOPIC] Re: Vista vs seven In-Reply-To: <200912080008.nB808lZJ007513@leto.astradyne.corp> References: <224524288-1259839647-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1274287355-@bda124.bisx.produk.on.blackberry> <4B184AF1.8030401@hinterlands.org> <20091207124346.GA7201@phaistos.bruce> <4B1D7565.1060708@hinterlands.org> <4B1D7867.4080207@hinterlands.org> <20091207234604.l7s21opjkcsg0wg8@chocabloc.net> <200912080008.nB808lZJ007513@leto.astradyne.corp> Message-ID: <1260260886.3345.23.camel@chris-laptop> On Tue, 2009-12-08 at 00:08 +0000, Tethys wrote: > -------- > > co at chocabloc.net writes: > > >And BTW bottom posting is horrible if you are like me and rely on a > >screen reader. Your screen reader software is faulty or poorly designed if it can't ignore blocks of text which start with > and >> symbols... > As an aside, I'd call ">>" reading as "greater greater" a bug in > your screen reader. Surely, making it aware of the common quoting > conventions would be a big win. You might want to mention it to > your screen reader vendor. It could improve your email experience > significantly. Exactly. His whinge about accessibility software being exclusively Windows-based is just plain wrong, and is probably just another attempt at trolling. In fact my blind friend gave up entirely on Windows software (that he had to pay a lot of money for from the RNIB) after the persistent crashes, infections and all the rest. C. From chrisbell at 3966.ukfsn.org Tue Dec 8 08:36:37 2009 From: chrisbell at 3966.ukfsn.org (Chris Bell) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 09:36:37 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Gllug] [OFFTOPIC] Re: Vista vs seven In-Reply-To: <20091207234604.l7s21opjkcsg0wg8@chocabloc.net> Message-ID: On Tue 08 Dec, co at chocabloc.net wrote: > I joined this group so that I could learn about Linux and help people > like my self to use it. I'll tell you one think that Windows does that > Linux can't - it can be easily accessable to disabled people though > the use of screen readers and speach recognition programmes. I am > interested in finding out more but this is not the place. This is a > bitch list for people who think they are ubergeeks to pour scorn and > hate on those that don't know enough or follow their party line. > Sorry, but I did not have any clue about either of the packages you named, and you gave no hint on your original email about what you were trying to do. The obvious initial response is not to reply "Sorry, no idea", otherwise you are very likely to receive hundreds of similar replies to wade through, getting you absolutely nowhere. I know absolutely nothing about the majority of the 23,000 packages available just in my usual distribution. Have you tried the Knoppix CD with a screen reader? I downloaded it from the university of Kent http://www.mirrorservice.org. It does at least have a screen reader. "KNOPPIX_V6.0.1-ADRIANE_V1.1CD-2009-02-08-EN.iso" -- Chris Bell www.chrisbell.org.uk (was www.overview.demon.co.uk) Microsoft sells you Windows ... Linux gives you the whole house. From chrisbell at 3966.ukfsn.org Tue Dec 8 08:42:37 2009 From: chrisbell at 3966.ukfsn.org (Chris Bell) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 09:42:37 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Gllug] [OFFTOPIC] Re: Vista vs seven In-Reply-To: <1260260886.3345.23.camel@chris-laptop> Message-ID: On Tue 08 Dec, Christopher Hunter wrote: > > In fact my blind friend gave up entirely on Windows software (that he > had to pay a lot of money for from the RNIB) after the persistent > crashes, infections and all the rest. > > C. > What does he use instead? -- Chris Bell www.chrisbell.org.uk (was www.overview.demon.co.uk) Microsoft sells you Windows ... Linux gives you the whole house. From damerell at chiark.greenend.org.uk Tue Dec 8 08:43:06 2009 From: damerell at chiark.greenend.org.uk (David Damerell) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 08:43:06 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] [OFFTOPIC] Re: Vista vs seven In-Reply-To: <20091207234604.l7s21opjkcsg0wg8@chocabloc.net> References: <224524288-1259839647-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1274287355-@bda124.bisx.produk.on.blackberry> <4B184AF1.8030401@hinterlands.org> <20091207124346.GA7201@phaistos.bruce> <4B1D7565.1060708@hinterlands.org> <4B1D7867.4080207@hinterlands.org> <20091207234604.l7s21opjkcsg0wg8@chocabloc.net> Message-ID: <19230.4506.618788.176815@chiark.greenend.org.uk> On Monday, 7 Dec 2009, co at chocabloc.net wrote: >like my self to use it. I'll tell you one think that Windows does that >Linux can't - it can be easily accessable to disabled people though >the use of screen readers and speach recognition programmes. One of my users in a previous job was completely blind. He, as it happened, had written the Linux driver for his Braille keyboard; but he, like me, would tell you - as should be obvious - that an operating system designed to be driven completely with text is more accessible than a GUI. He never top-quoted either. It is beneath dignity. -- David Damerell Distortion Field! Today is Oneiros, December. Tomorrow will be Mania, December. From chrisbell at 3966.ukfsn.org Tue Dec 8 08:53:17 2009 From: chrisbell at 3966.ukfsn.org (Chris Bell) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 09:53:17 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Gllug] HackerSpace Message-ID: Hello, There was interest a while ago in obtaining HackerSpace for a group of enthusiasts, while I am interested in providing help for beginners. Has there been any progress? I attended a local area Forum meeting last night which received a talk by a representative of the government and EU backed "Park Royal Partnership" covering the largest industrial area in Europe, saying that they are interested in working with the community to provide facilities. I have agreed to contact their representative to discuss suggestions. -- Chris Bell www.chrisbell.org.uk (was www.overview.demon.co.uk) Microsoft sells you Windows ... Linux gives you the whole house. From peterachilds at gmail.com Tue Dec 8 08:54:24 2009 From: peterachilds at gmail.com (Peter Childs) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 08:54:24 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] [OFFTOPIC] Re: Vista vs seven In-Reply-To: <19230.4506.618788.176815@chiark.greenend.org.uk> References: <224524288-1259839647-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1274287355-@bda124.bisx.produk.on.blackberry> <4B184AF1.8030401@hinterlands.org> <20091207124346.GA7201@phaistos.bruce> <4B1D7565.1060708@hinterlands.org> <4B1D7867.4080207@hinterlands.org> <20091207234604.l7s21opjkcsg0wg8@chocabloc.net> <19230.4506.618788.176815@chiark.greenend.org.uk> Message-ID: 2009/12/8 David Damerell : > On Monday, 7 Dec 2009, co at chocabloc.net wrote: >>like my self to use it. I'll tell you one think that Windows does that >>Linux can't - it can be easily accessable to disabled people though >>the use of screen readers and speach recognition programmes. > > One of my users in a previous job was completely blind. He, as it > happened, had written the Linux driver for his Braille keyboard; but > he, like me, would tell you - as should be obvious - that an operating > system designed to be driven completely with text is more accessible > than a GUI. > > He never top-quoted either. It is beneath dignity. > I can't remember the last thread that was actually on-topic..... I move for Gllug to be disbanded if we can't sort out the constant bickering that Gllug has descended into for last couple of YEARS! Its not just this thread but every single one. If someone invites us to a Perl meet we argue if its on topic or not, same with Linux Jobs same. If you try to discuss something that is on topic and can't be argued against you get met by cold hard silence. Peter. From jjllmmss at googlemail.com Tue Dec 8 09:31:35 2009 From: jjllmmss at googlemail.com (JLMS) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 09:31:35 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Camcorders In-Reply-To: References: <5a3c8f450912062035l47a0d8eg7bbef90d7a3b9ead@mail.gmail.com> <1260186784.3068.4.camel@L1> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 9:58 PM, wrote: > On Mon, 7 Dec 2009, Jason Clifford wrote: > > > > I've been doing video stuff for leasure, on Linux only, for years, > Making SVCDs then DVDs with fancy menus etc.  I now just leave files on > my DNLA serving NAS for playback on the PS3.  Its is a very time > consuming hobby, especially making stuff work on Linux, however I have > friends with Windows and MacOS and it _really_ doesn't get any easier. > > Damion For video editing, Final Cut Pro in OSX is just overwhelmingly superior to anything else out there. I love Linux, it is what I use every day, but when it comes to proper video editing, Linux is not there yet ( I have edited several short films in the last few months, I can't imagine I would have managed to do the same with Linux unfortunately). I have not tried the cheaper version (Final Cut Pro Express) but if it works as well as its big brother for the basic features, it should be more than enough for anybody. So in synthesis, I don't know what your friends using OSX are smoking :-) From andrew at osmosoft.com Tue Dec 8 09:35:39 2009 From: andrew at osmosoft.com (Andrew Back) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 09:35:39 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] HackerSpace In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20091208093539.GB6640@rhys.osmosoft.com> On (09:53 08/12/09), Chris Bell wrote: > Hello, > There was interest a while ago in obtaining HackerSpace for a group of > enthusiasts, while I am interested in providing help for beginners. Has > there been any progress? You mean like: http://london.hackspace.org.uk/ ? Cheers, Andrew -- Andrew Back mailto:andrew at osmosoft.com http://carrierdetect.com From co at chocabloc.net Tue Dec 8 10:13:13 2009 From: co at chocabloc.net (co at chocabloc.net) Date: Tue, 08 Dec 2009 10:13:13 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] [OFFTOPIC] Re: Vista vs seven In-Reply-To: <19230.4506.618788.176815@chiark.greenend.org.uk> References: <224524288-1259839647-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1274287355-@bda124.bisx.produk.on.blackberry> <4B184AF1.8030401@hinterlands.org> <20091207124346.GA7201@phaistos.bruce> <4B1D7565.1060708@hinterlands.org> <4B1D7867.4080207@hinterlands.org> <20091207234604.l7s21opjkcsg0wg8@chocabloc.net> <19230.4506.618788.176815@chiark.greenend.org.uk> Message-ID: <20091208101313.6rea7w43wo88cgkw@chocabloc.net> OK I have had to rejoin this group to ask you to stop harassing me. This is really pathetic. I left the group because I was fed up of all the nastiness and didn't expect it to carry on and get worse when I was off the group. Stop this now. I will take this further otherwise. What's really pathetic is some of you are posting on list where I can't respond. Also I'm not blind and it helps to use a GUI. Stop making assumptions about me. And stop this abuse weather you are posting this on list or not. And I didn't expect this from an Admin - Martin. Quoting David Damerell : > On Monday, 7 Dec 2009, co at chocabloc.net wrote: >> like my self to use it. I'll tell you one think that Windows does that >> Linux can't - it can be easily accessable to disabled people though >> the use of screen readers and speach recognition programmes. > > One of my users in a previous job was completely blind. He, as it > happened, had written the Linux driver for his Braille keyboard; but > he, like me, would tell you - as should be obvious - that an operating > system designed to be driven completely with text is more accessible > than a GUI. > > He never top-quoted either. It is beneath dignity. > > -- > David Damerell Distortion Field! > Today is Oneiros, December. > Tomorrow will be Mania, December. > From abuse at cabal.org.uk Tue Dec 8 10:12:13 2009 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 10:12:13 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Vista vs seven In-Reply-To: <1260259771.3345.16.camel@chris-laptop> References: <224524288-1259839647-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1274287355-@bda124.bisx.produk.on.blackberry> <1260143790.3859.15.camel@chris-laptop> <886FDE11-99DA-428C-AA2F-15DB98FE76AD@cabal.org.uk> <1260259771.3345.16.camel@chris-laptop> Message-ID: On 8 Dec 2009, at 08:09, Christopher Hunter wrote: > On Mon, 2009-12-07 at 10:57 +0000, Peter Corlett wrote: [Microsoft] >> Nonsense. Their mice work just fine. > "Their" mice and keyboards are made by other companies, so just have > an MS badge tacked on, so they aren't really MS products at all! This is the case for some of their software products as well... From matthew.king at monnsta.net Tue Dec 8 10:37:01 2009 From: matthew.king at monnsta.net (Matthew King) Date: Tue, 08 Dec 2009 10:37:01 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Vista vs seven In-Reply-To: <1260259771.3345.16.camel@chris-laptop> (Christopher Hunter's message of "Tue, 08 Dec 2009 08:09:31 +0000") References: <224524288-1259839647-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1274287355-@bda124.bisx.produk.on.blackberry> <1260143790.3859.15.camel@chris-laptop> <886FDE11-99DA-428C-AA2F-15DB98FE76AD@cabal.org.uk> <1260259771.3345.16.camel@chris-laptop> Message-ID: <878wddkb02.fsf@knight.monnsta.net> Christopher Hunter writes: > On Mon, 2009-12-07 at 10:57 +0000, Peter Corlett wrote: >> On 6 Dec 2009, at 23:56, Christopher Hunter wrote: >> [...] >> > Are you posting to the right list? There is NO Microsoft product that >> > has EVER worked entirely properly, >> >> Nonsense. Their mice work just fine. > > "Their" mice and keyboards are made by other companies, so just have an > MS badge tacked on, so they aren't really MS products at all! Yeah but be fair. So was everything else. Matthew -- I must take issue with the term "a mere child", for it has been my invariable experience that the company of a mere child is infinitely preferable to that of a mere adult. -- Fran Lebowitz From addw at phcomp.co.uk Tue Dec 8 10:47:49 2009 From: addw at phcomp.co.uk (Alain Williams) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 10:47:49 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] [OFFTOPIC] Re: Vista vs seven In-Reply-To: <20091208101313.6rea7w43wo88cgkw@chocabloc.net> References: <224524288-1259839647-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1274287355-@bda124.bisx.produk.on.blackberry> <4B184AF1.8030401@hinterlands.org> <20091207124346.GA7201@phaistos.bruce> <4B1D7565.1060708@hinterlands.org> <4B1D7867.4080207@hinterlands.org> <20091207234604.l7s21opjkcsg0wg8@chocabloc.net> <19230.4506.618788.176815@chiark.greenend.org.uk> <20091208101313.6rea7w43wo88cgkw@chocabloc.net> Message-ID: <20091208104749.GB31315@phcomp.co.uk> On Tue, Dec 08, 2009 at 10:13:13AM +0000, co at chocabloc.net wrote: > OK I have had to rejoin this group to ask you to stop harassing me. > This is really pathetic. I left the group because I was fed up of all > the nastiness and didn't expect it to carry on and get worse when I > was off the group. Stop this now. I will take this further otherwise. Aren't you being a tad oversensitive ? > What's really pathetic is some of you are posting on list where I > can't respond. You can't respond ? Is there some technical fault, or do you mean that you have left it ? > Also I'm not blind and it helps to use a GUI. I beg to differ, I find that avoiding a mouse for email makes things easier - which is why I use mutt. However: I accept that not everyone will agree with me. > Stop making assumptions about me. And stop this abuse weather you are > posting this on list or not. Your choice of words ''abuse'' is a bit over the top. If you wish to take part in our community then you need to play by the rules/expectations that we have. Not top posting is one of them, something that we moan at many people who do so -- not just you. You have demonstrated a reluctance/inability to conform to something that is expected - so I will add my complaints to you top posting. Regards -- Alain Williams Linux/GNU Consultant - Mail systems, Web sites, Networking, Programmer, IT Lecturer. +44 (0) 787 668 0256 http://www.phcomp.co.uk/ Parliament Hill Computers Ltd. Registration Information: http://www.phcomp.co.uk/contact.php Past chairman of UKUUG: http://www.ukuug.org/ #include From matthew.king at monnsta.net Tue Dec 8 12:54:02 2009 From: matthew.king at monnsta.net (Matthew King) Date: Tue, 08 Dec 2009 12:54:02 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] [OFFTOPIC] Re: Vista vs seven In-Reply-To: <20091208101313.6rea7w43wo88cgkw@chocabloc.net> (co@chocabloc.net's message of "Tue, 08 Dec 2009 10:13:13 +0000") References: <224524288-1259839647-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1274287355-@bda124.bisx.produk.on.blackberry> <4B184AF1.8030401@hinterlands.org> <20091207124346.GA7201@phaistos.bruce> <4B1D7565.1060708@hinterlands.org> <4B1D7867.4080207@hinterlands.org> <20091207234604.l7s21opjkcsg0wg8@chocabloc.net> <19230.4506.618788.176815@chiark.greenend.org.uk> <20091208101313.6rea7w43wo88cgkw@chocabloc.net> Message-ID: <87ws0xiq39.fsf@knight.monnsta.net> co at chocabloc.net writes: > OK I have had to rejoin this group to ask you to stop harassing me. > This is really pathetic. I left the group because I was fed up of all > the nastiness and didn't expect it to carry on and get worse when I > was off the group. Stop this now. I will take this further otherwise. co at chocabloc.net writes in 20091207234604.l7s21opjkcsg0wg8 at chocabloc.net: > I've left so you may now slag me off. That is all. HTH. HAND. Matthew -- I must take issue with the term "a mere child", for it has been my invariable experience that the company of a mere child is infinitely preferable to that of a mere adult. -- Fran Lebowitz From general_email at technicalbloke.com Tue Dec 8 13:12:14 2009 From: general_email at technicalbloke.com (general_email at technicalbloke.com) Date: Tue, 08 Dec 2009 13:12:14 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Camcorders In-Reply-To: References: <5a3c8f450912062035l47a0d8eg7bbef90d7a3b9ead@mail.gmail.com> <1260186784.3068.4.camel@L1> Message-ID: <4B1E50AE.40105@technicalbloke.com> JLMS wrote: > On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 9:58 PM, wrote: > >> On Mon, 7 Dec 2009, Jason Clifford wrote: >> >> >> >> I've been doing video stuff for leasure, on Linux only, for years, >> Making SVCDs then DVDs with fancy menus etc. I now just leave files on >> my DNLA serving NAS for playback on the PS3. Its is a very time >> consuming hobby, especially making stuff work on Linux, however I have >> friends with Windows and MacOS and it _really_ doesn't get any easier. >> >> Damion >> > > For video editing, Final Cut Pro in OSX is just overwhelmingly > superior to anything else out there. > > I love Linux, it is what I use every day, but when it comes to proper > video editing, Linux is not there yet ( I have edited several short > films in the last few months, I can't imagine I would have managed to > do the same with Linux unfortunately). > > I have not tried the cheaper version (Final Cut Pro Express) but if it > works as well as its big brother for the basic features, it should be > more than enough for anybody. > > So in synthesis, I don't know what your friends using OSX are smoking :-) > He's right Final Cut is a very good package. IMHO Sony Vegas on the PC is better though (if your criterion is simple, zero baggage, super fast workflow). Having said that Kdenlive is really coming along nicely (seemingly inspired by the Vegas paradigm). If I had a shred of spare time I'd love to get involved in the project - it's linux's best hope at getting a credible free NLE package together. Roger. From general_email at technicalbloke.com Tue Dec 8 13:16:35 2009 From: general_email at technicalbloke.com (general_email at technicalbloke.com) Date: Tue, 08 Dec 2009 13:16:35 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] [OFFTOPIC] Re: Vista vs seven In-Reply-To: <20091208101313.6rea7w43wo88cgkw@chocabloc.net> References: <224524288-1259839647-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1274287355-@bda124.bisx.produk.on.blackberry> <4B184AF1.8030401@hinterlands.org> <20091207124346.GA7201@phaistos.bruce> <4B1D7565.1060708@hinterlands.org> <4B1D7867.4080207@hinterlands.org> <20091207234604.l7s21opjkcsg0wg8@chocabloc.net> <19230.4506.618788.176815@chiark.greenend.org.uk> <20091208101313.6rea7w43wo88cgkw@chocabloc.net> Message-ID: <4B1E51B3.4000400@technicalbloke.com> co at chocabloc.net wrote: > OK I have had to rejoin this group to ask you to stop harassing me. > This is really pathetic. I left the group because I was fed up of all > the nastiness and didn't expect it to carry on and get worse when I > was off the group. Stop this now. I will take this further otherwise. > What's really pathetic is some of you are posting on list where I > can't respond. Also I'm not blind and it helps to use a GUI. Stop > making assumptions about me. And stop this abuse weather you are > posting this on list or not. > > And I didn't expect this from an Admin - Martin. > Dude, you is trollin', grow up. I don't remember you from last time round but I can see how you managed to get yourself booted. Roger. From danthegeekman at googlemail.com Tue Dec 8 14:02:22 2009 From: danthegeekman at googlemail.com (Dan) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 14:02:22 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] [OT] Odd PSU / connector In-Reply-To: <4B1BBBAB.2060400@technicalbloke.com> References: <4B1BBBAB.2060400@technicalbloke.com> Message-ID: <4e73d5ed0912080602x46cb0b2elf972cc8861f204b2@mail.gmail.com> Hello On Sun, Dec 6, 2009 at 2:11 PM, general_email at technicalbloke.com < general_email at technicalbloke.com> wrote: > Picture here... http://www.technicalbloke.com/12v5v.jpg > > I have one of those connectors for an 3.5" HDD enclosure. Is it possible that as there are 4 pins that there are 2 power rails as per Molex - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molex_connector I'd buy a cheap external HDD enclosure with a compatible lead. That will cost you less than £40.00. BTW have you tried opening the PSU and seeing if their are any voltage or amperage information on the board? Dan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.gllug.org.uk/pipermail/gllug/attachments/20091208/c7ab3060/attachment.htm From john at cornerstonelinux.co.uk Tue Dec 8 14:03:16 2009 From: john at cornerstonelinux.co.uk (John Edwards) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 14:03:16 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] [OFFTOPIC] Re: Vista vs seven In-Reply-To: References: <224524288-1259839647-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1274287355-@bda124.bisx.produk.on.blackberry> <4B184AF1.8030401@hinterlands.org> <20091207124346.GA7201@phaistos.bruce> <4B1D7565.1060708@hinterlands.org> <4B1D7867.4080207@hinterlands.org> <20091207234604.l7s21opjkcsg0wg8@chocabloc.net> <19230.4506.618788.176815@chiark.greenend.org.uk> Message-ID: <20091208140315.GK17365@cornerstonelinux.co.uk> On Tue, Dec 08, 2009 at 08:54:24AM +0000, Peter Childs wrote: > 2009/12/8 David Damerell : > I can't remember the last thread that was actually on-topic..... This might refresh your memory: 7 Dec = Camcorders 6 Dec = LVM 2 Dec = Swap partitions versus swap files 1 Dec = Encrypting system partitions > I move for Gllug to be disbanded if we can't sort out the constant > bickering that Gllug has descended into for last couple of YEARS! Why force everyone else to leave? You can personally disband your membership with the "unsubscribe" option. > Its not just this thread but every single one. Self-evident nonsense. > If someone invites us to a Perl meet we argue if its on topic or not, Not true. London Perl Mongers have posted here for years. The only recent problem I can think of was when an update to a meeting was sent that did not mention which meeting it was updating. > same with Linux Jobs same. Many jobs have posted without any negative comment, most recently Positive Internet. It's only when they ignore the list rules that problems happen, and recently that was all down to one individual. > If you try to discuss something that is on > topic and can't be argued against you get met by cold hard silence. See above for recent examples that prove this to be not true. The recent example of screen readers was ignored because the original email just mentioned "Orca" and "Julian" without saying what they those programs were or what problems they had with them. I sent an private email asking for clarification and was ignored. Later I sent an email suggesting the Orca mailing list as a better place to ask, but this suggestion was never acted on. Lastly if a thread is boring or annoying you then you can get Gmail to ignore that thread: http://mail.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=47787 http://www.watchingthenet.com/gmail-tip-automatically-archive-email-message-threads-with-mute.html -- #---------------------------------------------------------# | John Edwards Email: john at cornerstonelinux.co.uk | #---------------------------------------------------------# -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: Digital signature Url : http://lists.gllug.org.uk/pipermail/gllug/attachments/20091208/7c4fd0b6/attachment.pgp From andy at andymillar.co.uk Tue Dec 8 14:09:25 2009 From: andy at andymillar.co.uk (Andy Millar) Date: Tue, 08 Dec 2009 14:09:25 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] [OFFTOPIC] Re: Vista vs seven In-Reply-To: <20091208140315.GK17365@cornerstonelinux.co.uk> References: <224524288-1259839647-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1274287355-@bda124.bisx.produk.on.blackberry> <4B184AF1.8030401@hinterlands.org> <20091207124346.GA7201@phaistos.bruce> <4B1D7565.1060708@hinterlands.org> <4B1D7867.4080207@hinterlands.org> <20091207234604.l7s21opjkcsg0wg8@chocabloc.net> <19230.4506.618788.176815@chiark.greenend.org.uk> <20091208140315.GK17365@cornerstonelinux.co.uk> Message-ID: <1260281365.9585.120.camel@millaralpt> On Tue, 2009-12-08 at 14:03 +0000, John Edwards wrote: > Lastly if a thread is boring or annoying you then you can get Gmail > to ignore that thread: > http://mail.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=47787 > http://www.watchingthenet.com/gmail-tip-automatically-archive-email-message-threads-with-mute.html > I have to admit that it's a little much to assume that people use Gmail :-) Andy From john at cornerstonelinux.co.uk Tue Dec 8 14:32:51 2009 From: john at cornerstonelinux.co.uk (John Edwards) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 14:32:51 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Mailing list filtering (was Re: [OFFTOPIC] Re: Vista vs seven) In-Reply-To: <1260281365.9585.120.camel@millaralpt> References: <4B184AF1.8030401@hinterlands.org> <20091207124346.GA7201@phaistos.bruce> <4B1D7565.1060708@hinterlands.org> <4B1D7867.4080207@hinterlands.org> <20091207234604.l7s21opjkcsg0wg8@chocabloc.net> <19230.4506.618788.176815@chiark.greenend.org.uk> <20091208140315.GK17365@cornerstonelinux.co.uk> <1260281365.9585.120.camel@millaralpt> Message-ID: <20091208143251.GL17365@cornerstonelinux.co.uk> On Tue, Dec 08, 2009 at 02:09:25PM +0000, Andy Millar wrote: > On Tue, 2009-12-08 at 14:03 +0000, John Edwards wrote: >> Lastly if a thread is boring or annoying you then you can get Gmail >> to ignore that thread: >> http://mail.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=47787 >> http://www.watchingthenet.com/gmail-tip-automatically-archive-email-message-threads-with-mute.html >> > > I have to admit that it's a little much to assume that people use > Gmail :-) "peterachilds at gmail.com" Why does English not have a difference between second person singular and plural? Must have been "designed" by Larry Wall. ;) But I understand what you mean. Most good email clients should have sometime similar, but often don't. There is a plugin for Thunderbird, and mutt can tag and delete threads easy enough. You could also use filtering rules in either the client or server-side (procmail, sieve, etc) to move email for a mailing list to a seperate folder. This also has the advantage of it not interupting your normal email work, and allowing you to read mailing lists when time allows. If I didn't do this that I suppose that the constant interuptions by many mailing lists could produce a fair amount of annoyance and lead to a bad temper. ;) -- #---------------------------------------------------------# | John Edwards Email: john at cornerstonelinux.co.uk | #---------------------------------------------------------# -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: Digital signature Url : http://lists.gllug.org.uk/pipermail/gllug/attachments/20091208/105f8c97/attachment.pgp From cehunter at gb-x.org Tue Dec 8 15:10:19 2009 From: cehunter at gb-x.org (Christopher Hunter) Date: Tue, 08 Dec 2009 15:10:19 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] [OFFTOPIC] Re: Vista vs seven In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1260285019.3228.4.camel@chris-laptop> On Tue, 2009-12-08 at 09:36 +0100, Chris Bell wrote: > Have you tried the Knoppix CD with a screen reader? I downloaded it from > the university of Kent http://www.mirrorservice.org. It does at least have a > screen reader. "KNOPPIX_V6.0.1-ADRIANE_V1.1CD-2009-02-08-EN.iso" Klaus Knopper built that version of Knoppix for his wife Adriane (who's blind), so he has a vested interest in getting it right. Mark, my blind friend, said that it was a superb distro - the first Linux flavour he really got on with, though he had minor hassles with the install (there was an issue with deciding the partitioning scheme of the drive). C. From general_email at technicalbloke.com Tue Dec 8 15:26:19 2009 From: general_email at technicalbloke.com (general_email at technicalbloke.com) Date: Tue, 08 Dec 2009 15:26:19 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] [OT] Odd PSU / connector In-Reply-To: <4e73d5ed0912080602x46cb0b2elf972cc8861f204b2@mail.gmail.com> References: <4B1BBBAB.2060400@technicalbloke.com> <4e73d5ed0912080602x46cb0b2elf972cc8861f204b2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B1E701B.7080006@technicalbloke.com> Dan wrote: > Hello > > On Sun, Dec 6, 2009 at 2:11 PM, general_email at technicalbloke.com < > general_email at technicalbloke.com> wrote: > > >> Picture here... http://www.technicalbloke.com/12v5v.jpg >> >> I have one of those connectors for an 3.5" HDD enclosure. Is it possible >> > that as there are 4 pins that there are 2 power rails as per Molex - > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molex_connector > > I'd buy a cheap external HDD enclosure with a compatible lead. That will > cost you less than £40.00. > > BTW have you tried opening the PSU and seeing if their are any voltage or > amperage information on the board? > > Dan > > Having looked on ebay there's several standard pin layouts and voltages for this type of connector e.g. 12v+5v, 12v, 19v, -12v+12v. Ones that look bulky enough to run a small PC & drive seem to be around £35 but I don't want to risk A) The cash or B) Frying the machine. I guess my last hope is to either contact the manufacturer or find another one of these boxes and get the PSU details from the owner. Sadly there's no useful markings on the board or even on the casing :/ Cheers, Roger From cehunter at gb-x.org Tue Dec 8 15:39:32 2009 From: cehunter at gb-x.org (Christopher Hunter) Date: Tue, 08 Dec 2009 15:39:32 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] [OT] Odd PSU / connector In-Reply-To: <4B1E701B.7080006@technicalbloke.com> References: <4B1BBBAB.2060400@technicalbloke.com> <4e73d5ed0912080602x46cb0b2elf972cc8861f204b2@mail.gmail.com> <4B1E701B.7080006@technicalbloke.com> Message-ID: <1260286773.3228.23.camel@chris-laptop> On Tue, 2009-12-08 at 15:26 +0000, general_email at technicalbloke.com wrote: > Dan wrote: > > Hello > > > > On Sun, Dec 6, 2009 at 2:11 PM, general_email at technicalbloke.com < > > general_email at technicalbloke.com> wrote: > > > > > >> Picture here... http://www.technicalbloke.com/12v5v.jpg > >> > >> I have one of those connectors for an 3.5" HDD enclosure. Is it possible > >> > > that as there are 4 pins that there are 2 power rails as per Molex - > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molex_connector > > > > I'd buy a cheap external HDD enclosure with a compatible lead. That will > > cost you less than £40.00. > > > > BTW have you tried opening the PSU and seeing if their are any voltage or > > amperage information on the board? > > > > Dan > > > > > > > Having looked on ebay there's several standard pin layouts and voltages > for this type of connector e.g. 12v+5v, 12v, 19v, -12v+12v. Ones that > look bulky enough to run a small PC & drive seem to be around £35 but I > don't want to risk A) The cash or B) Frying the machine. I guess my last > hope is to either contact the manufacturer or find another one of these > boxes and get the PSU details from the owner. Sadly there's no useful > markings on the board or even on the casing :/ > Roger I'm back in London at the weekend, and if you're not the other end of the world, I could take a look (with my electronic engineer's hat on), have a little continuity test with a multimeter, and work out what the pins do! Designing a simple, cheap PSU would then be simple (though we might choose to change the obscure 4-pin connector!). Drop me a mail off-list, and I'll see if I can help. Regards Chris From itsbruce at workshy.org Tue Dec 8 15:49:38 2009 From: itsbruce at workshy.org (Bruce Richardson) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 15:49:38 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] [OFFTOPIC] Re: Vista vs seven In-Reply-To: References: <224524288-1259839647-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1274287355-@bda124.bisx.produk.on.blackberry> <4B184AF1.8030401@hinterlands.org> <20091207124346.GA7201@phaistos.bruce> <4B1D7565.1060708@hinterlands.org> <4B1D7867.4080207@hinterlands.org> <20091207234604.l7s21opjkcsg0wg8@chocabloc.net> <19230.4506.618788.176815@chiark.greenend.org.uk> Message-ID: <20091208154938.GA10348@phaistos.bruce> On Tue, Dec 08, 2009 at 08:54:24AM +0000, Peter wrote: > > I can't remember the last thread that was actually on-topic..... > > I move for Gllug to be disbanded if we can't sort out the constant > bickering that Gllug has descended into for last couple of YEARS! Linux User Groups are no longer useful. It's a mainstream technology now, so LUGs do not offer the special advantages (networking, hard-to-get technical advice and expertise) they once did. Bitching is about all that's left. -- Bruce What would Edward Woodward do? -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: Digital signature Url : http://lists.gllug.org.uk/pipermail/gllug/attachments/20091208/22b1a005/attachment.pgp From damerell at chiark.greenend.org.uk Tue Dec 8 15:59:39 2009 From: damerell at chiark.greenend.org.uk (David Damerell) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 15:59:39 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] [OFFTOPIC] Re: Vista vs seven In-Reply-To: <20091208101313.6rea7w43wo88cgkw@chocabloc.net> References: <224524288-1259839647-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1274287355-@bda124.bisx.produk.on.blackberry> <4B184AF1.8030401@hinterlands.org> <20091207124346.GA7201@phaistos.bruce> <4B1D7565.1060708@hinterlands.org> <4B1D7867.4080207@hinterlands.org> <20091207234604.l7s21opjkcsg0wg8@chocabloc.net> <19230.4506.618788.176815@chiark.greenend.org.uk> <20091208101313.6rea7w43wo88cgkw@chocabloc.net> Message-ID: <19230.30699.288374.222398@chiark.greenend.org.uk> On Tuesday, 8 Dec 2009, co at chocabloc.net wrote: >OK I have had to rejoin this group to ask you to stop harassing me. Where "harassing" is defined as replying in a civil fashion to an email which you sent, via a mailing list, to me? Newsflash; if you send me email, I may reply. >This is really pathetic. I left the group because I was fed up of all >the nastiness and didn't expect it to carry on and get worse when I >was off the group. Oh, wait, maybe "harassment" is when the members of a mailing list reply to messages sent to that mailing list. >Stop this now. I will take this further otherwise. I may soil myself with terror. >What's really pathetic is some of you are posting on list where I >can't respond. Ironically, you are writing this in an on-list response. >Also I'm not blind and it helps to use a GUI. Stop making assumptions >about me. I don't see where I made any assumption about you. I didn't say _anything_ about you in the article you replied to. >And stop this abuse weather you are posting this on list or not. I don't see that I can possibly be abusing the gentleman I was talking about by mentioning his notable programming ability. -- David Damerell Distortion Field! Today is Oneiros, December. Tomorrow will be Mania, December. From peterachilds at gmail.com Tue Dec 8 16:02:18 2009 From: peterachilds at gmail.com (Peter Childs) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 16:02:18 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] [OFFTOPIC] Re: Vista vs seven In-Reply-To: <20091208154938.GA10348@phaistos.bruce> References: <224524288-1259839647-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1274287355-@bda124.bisx.produk.on.blackberry> <4B184AF1.8030401@hinterlands.org> <20091207124346.GA7201@phaistos.bruce> <4B1D7565.1060708@hinterlands.org> <4B1D7867.4080207@hinterlands.org> <20091207234604.l7s21opjkcsg0wg8@chocabloc.net> <19230.4506.618788.176815@chiark.greenend.org.uk> <20091208154938.GA10348@phaistos.bruce> Message-ID: 2009/12/8 Bruce Richardson : > On Tue, Dec 08, 2009 at 08:54:24AM +0000, Peter wrote: >> >> I can't remember the last thread that was actually on-topic..... >> >> I move for Gllug to be disbanded if we can't sort out the constant >> bickering that Gllug has descended into for last couple of YEARS! > > Linux User Groups are no longer useful.  It's a mainstream technology > now, so LUGs do not offer the special advantages (networking, > hard-to-get technical advice and expertise) they once did.  Bitching is > about all that's left. > Not true. I think the issue with Gllug is that its too big and has a lack of leadership (to organise meets etc), We also have a load of people who think they know everything and will not accept the beginners and accept that we were all beginners once. In short too many Indians and not enough Chiefs. Peter. From andy at andymillar.co.uk Tue Dec 8 16:15:29 2009 From: andy at andymillar.co.uk (Andy Millar) Date: Tue, 08 Dec 2009 16:15:29 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] [OFFTOPIC] Re: Vista vs seven In-Reply-To: <19230.30699.288374.222398@chiark.greenend.org.uk> References: <224524288-1259839647-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1274287355-@bda124.bisx.produk.on.blackberry> <4B184AF1.8030401@hinterlands.org> <20091207124346.GA7201@phaistos.bruce> <4B1D7565.1060708@hinterlands.org> <4B1D7867.4080207@hinterlands.org> <20091207234604.l7s21opjkcsg0wg8@chocabloc.net> <19230.4506.618788.176815@chiark.greenend.org.uk> <20091208101313.6rea7w43wo88cgkw@chocabloc.net> <19230.30699.288374.222398@chiark.greenend.org.uk> Message-ID: <1260288929.5157.9.camel@millaralpt> On Tue, 2009-12-08 at 15:59 +0000, David Damerell wrote: > On Tuesday, 8 Dec 2009, co at chocabloc.net wrote: > > >Stop this now. I will take this further otherwise. > > I may soil myself with terror. Fantastic! Someone's going to try an sue gllug users again. Hasn't it been a while since the last one? Andy From peter at cannon-linux.co.uk Tue Dec 8 16:23:48 2009 From: peter at cannon-linux.co.uk (Peter Cannon) Date: Tue, 08 Dec 2009 16:23:48 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] [OFFTOPIC] Re: Vista vs seven In-Reply-To: <1260288929.5157.9.camel@millaralpt> References: <224524288-1259839647-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1274287355-@bda124.bisx.produk.on.blackberry> <4B184AF1.8030401@hinterlands.org> <20091207124346.GA7201@phaistos.bruce> <4B1D7565.1060708@hinterlands.org> <4B1D7867.4080207@hinterlands.org> <20091207234604.l7s21opjkcsg0wg8@chocabloc.net> <19230.4506.618788.176815@chiark.greenend.org.uk> <20091208101313.6rea7w43wo88cgkw@chocabloc.net> <19230.30699.288374.222398@chiark.greenend.org.uk> <1260288929.5157.9.camel@millaralpt> Message-ID: <4B1E7D94.7060004@cannon-linux.co.uk> Tis the season to be jolly tra la la le la -- Regards Peter Cannon IRC: dick_turpin @ freenode https://twitter.com/dick_turpin http://www.linkedin.com/in/pcannon http://www.cannon-linux.co.uk http://www.archlinux.org.uk "There is every excuse for not knowing There is no excuse for not asking" From jim.cameron at buhlersortex.com Tue Dec 8 16:24:24 2009 From: jim.cameron at buhlersortex.com (jim.cameron at buhlersortex.com) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 17:24:24 +0100 Subject: [Gllug] [OFFTOPIC] Re: Vista vs seven In-Reply-To: <1260288929.5157.9.camel@millaralpt> Message-ID: <67077B028BBBB54AAEA6213CADB5CEF31BD2D9C59A@uzn753.buhler-ltd.com> Andy Millar: > On Tue, 2009-12-08 at 15:59 +0000, David Damerell wrote: > > On Tuesday, 8 Dec 2009, co at chocabloc.net wrote: > > > > >Stop this now. I will take this further otherwise. > > > > I may soil myself with terror. > > Fantastic! Someone's going to try an sue gllug users again. > > Hasn't it been a while since the last one? Gentlemen, please desist from feeding the troll. jim -- Jim Cameron Software Engineer Buhler Sortex Limited Research and Development Department 20 Atlantis Avenue London E16 2BF Registered in England No. 434274 T +44(0)20 7055 7607 F +44(0)20 7055 7701 Mail to: jim.cameron at buhlersortex.com www.buhlersortex.com This e-mail (including any attachments) is confidential, may be legally privileged and is designated exclusively for the intended recipient. Access by any other person is not authorised. Any disclosure of this e-mail or of names of persons mentioned therein as well as any storing, copying, distribution and dissemination is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please immediately delete this e-mail and notify the sender by phone or by e-mail. From cehunter at gb-x.org Tue Dec 8 16:30:09 2009 From: cehunter at gb-x.org (Christopher Hunter) Date: Tue, 08 Dec 2009 16:30:09 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] [OFFTOPIC] Re: Vista vs seven In-Reply-To: <19230.30699.288374.222398@chiark.greenend.org.uk> References: <224524288-1259839647-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1274287355-@bda124.bisx.produk.on.blackberry> <4B184AF1.8030401@hinterlands.org> <20091207124346.GA7201@phaistos.bruce> <4B1D7565.1060708@hinterlands.org> <4B1D7867.4080207@hinterlands.org> <20091207234604.l7s21opjkcsg0wg8@chocabloc.net> <19230.4506.618788.176815@chiark.greenend.org.uk> <20091208101313.6rea7w43wo88cgkw@chocabloc.net> <19230.30699.288374.222398@chiark.greenend.org.uk> Message-ID: <1260289809.3228.40.camel@chris-laptop> On Tue, 2009-12-08 at 15:59 +0000, David Damerell wrote: > On Tuesday, 8 Dec 2009, co at chocabloc.net wrote: > >OK I have had to rejoin this group to ask you to stop harassing me. > > Where "harassing" is defined as replying in a civil fashion to an > email which you sent, via a mailing list, to me? > > Newsflash; if you send me email, I may reply. > > >This is really pathetic. I left the group because I was fed up of all > >the nastiness and didn't expect it to carry on and get worse when I > >was off the group. > > Oh, wait, maybe "harassment" is when the members of a mailing list > reply to messages sent to that mailing list. > > >Stop this now. I will take this further otherwise. > > I may soil myself with terror. > > >What's really pathetic is some of you are posting on list where I > >can't respond. > > Ironically, you are writing this in an on-list response. > > >Also I'm not blind and it helps to use a GUI. Stop making assumptions > >about me. > > I don't see where I made any assumption about you. I didn't say > _anything_ about you in the article you replied to. > > >And stop this abuse weather you are posting this on list or not. > > I don't see that I can possibly be abusing the gentleman I was > talking about by mentioning his notable programming ability. Have you noticed the childish inability to either spell correctly or use a spell checker? Have you also noticed the specious nonsense about being "abused" and "taking this further" (probably by typing a few swear works he's learnt)? I'm pretty sure that this is an inept, largely illiterate troll. It's probably best to ignore it. It'll probably find some other group to annoy, in time. C. From cehunter at gb-x.org Tue Dec 8 16:39:20 2009 From: cehunter at gb-x.org (Christopher Hunter) Date: Tue, 08 Dec 2009 16:39:20 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] [OFFTOPIC] Re: Vista vs seven In-Reply-To: <1260288929.5157.9.camel@millaralpt> References: <224524288-1259839647-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1274287355-@bda124.bisx.produk.on.blackberry> <4B184AF1.8030401@hinterlands.org> <20091207124346.GA7201@phaistos.bruce> <4B1D7565.1060708@hinterlands.org> <4B1D7867.4080207@hinterlands.org> <20091207234604.l7s21opjkcsg0wg8@chocabloc.net> <19230.4506.618788.176815@chiark.greenend.org.uk> <20091208101313.6rea7w43wo88cgkw@chocabloc.net> <19230.30699.288374.222398@chiark.greenend.org.uk> <1260288929.5157.9.camel@millaralpt> Message-ID: <1260290360.3228.49.camel@chris-laptop> On Tue, 2009-12-08 at 16:15 +0000, Andy Millar wrote: > On Tue, 2009-12-08 at 15:59 +0000, David Damerell wrote: > > On Tuesday, 8 Dec 2009, co at chocabloc.net wrote: > > > > >Stop this now. I will take this further otherwise. > > > > I may soil myself with terror. > > Fantastic! Someone's going to try an sue gllug users again. > > Hasn't it been a while since the last one? This could be fun! Any real legal attempt is going to require the full, real address of the complainant to be made public. Oh what fun we'll all have! I haven't subscribed anyone to Which / Readers Digest / Littlewoods Home Delivery (and all the rest) for ages! I wouldn't want to "harass" the little blighter, though! C. From gllug at text-list.co.uk Tue Dec 8 16:57:52 2009 From: gllug at text-list.co.uk (gllug at text-list.co.uk) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 16:57:52 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] [OFFTOPIC] Re: Vista vs seven In-Reply-To: <1260289809.3228.40.camel@chris-laptop> References: <224524288-1259839647-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1274287355-@bda124.bisx.produk.on.blackberry><4B184AF1.8030401@hinterlands.org><20091207124346.GA7201@phaistos.bruce><4B1D7565.1060708@hinterlands.org> <4B1D7867.4080207@hinterlands.org><20091207234604.l7s21opjkcsg0wg8@chocabloc.net><19230.4506.618788.176815@chiark.greenend.org.uk><20091208101313.6rea7w43wo88cgkw@chocabloc.net><19230.30699.288374.222398@chiark.greenend.org.uk><1260289809.3228.40.camel@chris-laptop> Message-ID: <1552608016-1260291470-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2143823897-@bda083.bisx.produk.on.blackberry> This is all rather pathetic.. Time to leave this list of self important, supercilious, socially inept grey beards. Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device -----Original Message----- From: Christopher Hunter Date: Tue, 08 Dec 2009 16:30:09 To: Greater London Linux User Group Subject: Re: [Gllug] [OFFTOPIC] Re: Vista vs seven On Tue, 2009-12-08 at 15:59 +0000, David Damerell wrote: > On Tuesday, 8 Dec 2009, co at chocabloc.net wrote: > >OK I have had to rejoin this group to ask you to stop harassing me. > > Where "harassing" is defined as replying in a civil fashion to an > email which you sent, via a mailing list, to me? > > Newsflash; if you send me email, I may reply. > > >This is really pathetic. I left the group because I was fed up of all > >the nastiness and didn't expect it to carry on and get worse when I > >was off the group. > > Oh, wait, maybe "harassment" is when the members of a mailing list > reply to messages sent to that mailing list. > > >Stop this now. I will take this further otherwise. > > I may soil myself with terror. > > >What's really pathetic is some of you are posting on list where I > >can't respond. > > Ironically, you are writing this in an on-list response. > > >Also I'm not blind and it helps to use a GUI. Stop making assumptions > >about me. > > I don't see where I made any assumption about you. I didn't say >_anything_ about you in the article you replied to. > > >And stop this abuse weather you are posting this on list or not. > > I don't see that I can possibly be abusing the gentleman I was > talking about by mentioning his notable programming ability. Have you noticed the childish inability to either spell correctly or use a spell checker? Have you also noticed the specious nonsense about being "abused" and "taking this further" (probably by typing a few swear works he's learnt)? I'm pretty sure that this is an inept, largely illiterate troll. It's probably best to ignore it. It'll probably find some other group to annoy, in time. C. -- Gllug mailing list - Gllug at gllug.org.uk http://lists.gllug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/gllug From general_email at technicalbloke.com Wed Dec 9 05:54:52 2009 From: general_email at technicalbloke.com (general_email at technicalbloke.com) Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2009 05:54:52 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] [OT] Odd PSU / connector In-Reply-To: <1260286773.3228.23.camel@chris-laptop> References: <4B1BBBAB.2060400@technicalbloke.com> <4e73d5ed0912080602x46cb0b2elf972cc8861f204b2@mail.gmail.com> <4B1E701B.7080006@technicalbloke.com> <1260286773.3228.23.camel@chris-laptop> Message-ID: <4B1F3BAC.50309@technicalbloke.com> Christopher Hunter wrote: > On Tue, 2009-12-08 at 15:26 +0000, general_email at technicalbloke.com > wrote: > >> Dan wrote: >> >>> Hello >>> >>> On Sun, Dec 6, 2009 at 2:11 PM, general_email at technicalbloke.com < >>> general_email at technicalbloke.com> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>> Picture here... http://www.technicalbloke.com/12v5v.jpg >>>> >>>> I have one of those connectors for an 3.5" HDD enclosure. Is it possible >>>> >>>> >>> that as there are 4 pins that there are 2 power rails as per Molex - >>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molex_connector >>> >>> I'd buy a cheap external HDD enclosure with a compatible lead. That will >>> cost you less than £40.00. >>> >>> BTW have you tried opening the PSU and seeing if their are any voltage or >>> amperage information on the board? >>> >>> Dan >>> >>> >>> >> Having looked on ebay there's several standard pin layouts and voltages >> for this type of connector e.g. 12v+5v, 12v, 19v, -12v+12v. Ones that >> look bulky enough to run a small PC & drive seem to be around £35 but I >> don't want to risk A) The cash or B) Frying the machine. I guess my last >> hope is to either contact the manufacturer or find another one of these >> boxes and get the PSU details from the owner. Sadly there's no useful >> markings on the board or even on the casing :/ >> >> > > Roger > > I'm back in London at the weekend, and if you're not the other end of > the world, I could take a look (with my electronic engineer's hat on), > have a little continuity test with a multimeter, and work out what the > pins do! Designing a simple, cheap PSU would then be simple (though we > might choose to change the obscure 4-pin connector!). > > Drop me a mail off-list, and I'll see if I can help. > > Regards > > Chris > > Thank you Chriostopher, that's very kind of you. The good news is I have managed to contact someone else who owns one of these boxes and have asked them to forward me details of their power supply. If it turns out to be something that's not available off the peg I may still need to build a power supply for it but that should at least remove the guesswork. I will drop you a mail off list if that turns out to be the case. Thanks again, Roger. From general_email at technicalbloke.com Wed Dec 9 05:58:57 2009 From: general_email at technicalbloke.com (general_email at technicalbloke.com) Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2009 05:58:57 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] [OFFTOPIC] Re: Vista vs seven In-Reply-To: <1552608016-1260291470-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2143823897-@bda083.bisx.produk.on.blackberry> References: <224524288-1259839647-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1274287355-@bda124.bisx.produk.on.blackberry><4B184AF1.8030401@hinterlands.org><20091207124346.GA7201@phaistos.bruce><4B1D7565.1060708@hinterlands.org> <4B1D7867.4080207@hinterlands.org><20091207234604.l7s21opjkcsg0wg8@chocabloc.net><19230.4506.618788.176815@chiark.greenend.org.uk><20091208101313.6rea7w43wo88cgkw@chocabloc.net><19230.30699.288374.222398@chiark.greenend.org.uk><1260289809.3228.40.camel@chris-laptop> <1552608016-1260291470-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2143823897-@bda083.bisx.produk.on.blackberry> Message-ID: <4B1F3CA1.6080000@technicalbloke.com> gllug at text-list.co.uk wrote: > This is all rather pathetic.. Time to leave this list of self important, supercilious, socially inept grey beards. > > > Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device > Bye! :D x Roger. From mail-lists at karan.org Wed Dec 9 13:16:51 2009 From: mail-lists at karan.org (Karanbir Singh) Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2009 13:16:51 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] tv tuner with hdmi input Message-ID: <4B1FA343.5090405@karan.org> hi, There seems to be very conflicting info out there on the internets about hdmi capable tv-tuner cards for mythTV. Just wondering if anyone on here has used one or knows enough about them to recommend something ? We have sky+ HD, and the quality of the + box is border line (its the Samsung model ). And I would really like to replace just the recording capability with a linux box running MythTV. My TV already has a dvi and vga input, so getting the content onscreen wont be a big deal. -- Karanbir Singh London, UK | http://www.karan.org/ | twitter.com/kbsingh ICQ: 2522219 | Yahoo IM: z00dax | Gtalk: z00dax GnuPG Key : http://www.karan.org/publickey.asc From rw at shadowrobot.com Wed Dec 9 17:53:25 2009 From: rw at shadowrobot.com (Rich Walker) Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2009 17:53:25 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Thunderbird 3 Message-ID: <4B1FE415.30409@shadowrobot.com> Anyone else tried this? So far I've: * been unable to access a Perdition IMAPS proxy * lost a line on my screen to tabs that won't go away * got several folders coloured a greeny-cyan for no clear reason. It's enough to make me use Emacs-under-windows... cheers, Rich. -- rich walker | Shadow Robot Company | rw at shadowrobot.com managing director 251 Liverpool Road | skype: rich_at_shadow need a Hand? London N1 1LX | +44 20 7700 2487 http://www.shadowrobot.com/hand/ @shadowrobot From lucian at lastdot.org Wed Dec 9 19:29:45 2009 From: lucian at lastdot.org (Lucian @ lastdot.org) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2009 19:29:45 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Thunderbird 3 In-Reply-To: <4B1FE415.30409@shadowrobot.com> References: <4B1FE415.30409@shadowrobot.com> Message-ID: <5a3c8f450912091129t1af807ebr7ab1ed8569241a2@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Dec 9, 2009 at 5:53 PM, Rich Walker wrote: > Anyone else tried this? So far I've: > * been unable to access a Perdition IMAPS proxy > * lost a line on my screen to tabs that won't go away > * got several folders coloured a greeny-cyan for no clear reason. > > It's enough to make me use Emacs-under-windows... > > > cheers, Rich. > > -- > rich walker         |  Shadow Robot Company | rw at shadowrobot.com > managing director      251 Liverpool Road   | skype: rich_at_shadow > need a Hand?           London  N1 1LX       | +44 20 7700 2487 > http://www.shadowrobot.com/hand/              @shadowrobot > -- > Gllug mailing list  -  Gllug at gllug.org.uk > http://lists.gllug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/gllug > Been using it since Beta1, I'm satisfied with it, although I don't use the labels and archive features. From lesleyb at pgcroft.net Wed Dec 9 20:40:49 2009 From: lesleyb at pgcroft.net (Lesley) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2009 20:40:49 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] HackerSpace In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20091209204049.GI12648@pgcroft.net> On Tue, Dec 08, 2009 at 09:53:17AM +0100, Chris Bell wrote: > Hello, > There was interest a while ago in obtaining HackerSpace for a group of > enthusiasts, while I am interested in providing help for beginners. Has > there been any progress? > I attended a local area Forum meeting last night which received a talk by > a representative of the government and EU backed "Park Royal Partnership" > covering the largest industrial area in Europe, saying that they are > interested in working with the community to provide facilities. I have > agreed to contact their representative to discuss suggestions. > > Hi Chris I'm replying off list atm I have not yet been to Hacker Space nites which are in East London but they seem to be a hackspace for geeks probably in employement given they seem to require regular subscriptions and/or on-the-night donations. I think HackSoace is probably doing good things but not sure it has the model you are looking for with a community space? I probably can't commit to travelling the distance from the outer edge of SE London over to the Park Royal area but I would think that free useful space is at a premium. It depends what you envisage this space doing? Regards Lesley From chrisbell at 3966.ukfsn.org Wed Dec 9 22:39:59 2009 From: chrisbell at 3966.ukfsn.org (Chris Bell) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2009 23:39:59 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Gllug] HackerSpace In-Reply-To: <20091209204049.GI12648@pgcroft.net> Message-ID: On Wed 09 Dec, Lesley wrote: > > It depends what you envisage this space doing? > > Regards > > Lesley The meeting was running late, but there was just time for questions before the lights started going out. The remaining time was taken by three young lads and two neighbourhood policewomen asking for more youth facilities. I spoke to the Park Royal Partnership representative afterwards and requested a combination of education opportunities, a community computer club, and hacker space. I explained that I wanted to provide community facilities for anyone to learn how to install, configure, and administer anything from a single computer to a network suitable for a small business, plus space for further development, pointing out that this could be beneficial for both the community and local businesses that might need expertise in the future. I was told that the representative was not personally involved in that part of the organisation, but he had already been convinced about Open Source by his son who is attending Imperial College, and he would pass on the requests. The response appears to be encouraging. There is EU and Government funding available to the Park Royal Partnership, and they can request help from a very large number of local businesses. -- Chris Bell www.chrisbell.org.uk (was www.overview.demon.co.uk) Microsoft sells you Windows ... Linux gives you the whole house. From justinperreault at dl-jp.com Thu Dec 10 00:34:57 2009 From: justinperreault at dl-jp.com (Justin Perreault) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 00:34:57 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] tv tuner with hdmi input In-Reply-To: <4B1FA343.5090405@karan.org> References: <4B1FA343.5090405@karan.org> Message-ID: <1260405297.10439.12.camel@Gecko.local> On Wed, 2009-12-09 at 13:16 +0000, Karanbir Singh wrote: > There seems to be very conflicting info out there on the internets about > hdmi capable tv-tuner cards for mythTV. Just wondering if anyone on here > has used one or knows enough about them to recommend something ? I have been playing with myth-tv boxes for a little over year now, I'll try to help. > We have sky+ HD, and the quality of the + box is border line (its the > Samsung model ). And I would really like to replace just the recording > capability with a linux box running MythTV. My TV already has a dvi and > vga input, so getting the content onscreen wont be a big deal. Some more info will help: Are you hoping to record the Sky feed or just freeview/freesat? By quality are you referring to usability or picture aspects? Justin -- CYA or c'ya it's your choice.(more pessimistic than I am but I find it amusing) From amd_uk at lineone.net Thu Dec 10 04:50:39 2009 From: amd_uk at lineone.net (Andrew Davies) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 04:50:39 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] tv tuner with hdmi input In-Reply-To: <4B1FA343.5090405@karan.org> References: <4B1FA343.5090405@karan.org> Message-ID: <4B207E1F.2010107@lineone.net> Karanbir Singh wrote: > hi, > > There seems to be very conflicting info out there on the internets about > hdmi capable tv-tuner cards for mythTV. Just wondering if anyone on here > has used one or knows enough about them to recommend something ? > > We have sky+ HD, and the quality of the + box is border line (its the > Samsung model ). And I would really like to replace just the recording > capability with a linux box running MythTV. My TV already has a dvi and > vga input, so getting the content onscreen wont be a big deal. > > One of the reasons HDMI was brought in was to create a secure environment where a signal couldn't be recorded when it was used. HDCP is part of the HDMI standard that, although not yet turned on (to allow analogue (Component) HD capable equipment to view HDCP material whilst people upgraded), will lock down the signal from beginning to end. Hauppauge make a Component 1080i recording box that is compatible with Linux (to what level I'm unsure) and this is the only way I've seen to record a HD signal. http://www.mythtv.org/wiki/Hauppauge_HD-PVR From danthegeekman at googlemail.com Thu Dec 10 11:02:37 2009 From: danthegeekman at googlemail.com (Dan) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 11:02:37 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] HackerSpace In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4e73d5ed0912100302v365ca895g8a0a483b6d93bdff@mail.gmail.com> Chris are these forums open to all? As I would be interested in joining a HackSpace in the Park Royal area. Dan On Tue, Dec 8, 2009 at 8:53 AM, Chris Bell wrote: > Hello, > There was interest a while ago in obtaining HackerSpace for a group of > enthusiasts, while I am interested in providing help for beginners. Has > there been any progress? > I attended a local area Forum meeting last night which received a talk by > a representative of the government and EU backed "Park Royal Partnership" > covering the largest industrial area in Europe, saying that they are > interested in working with the community to provide facilities. I have > agreed to contact their representative to discuss suggestions. > > > -- > Chris Bell www.chrisbell.org.uk (was www.overview.demon.co.uk) > Microsoft sells you Windows ... Linux gives you the whole house. > > -- > Gllug mailing list - Gllug at gllug.org.uk > http://lists.gllug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/gllug > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.gllug.org.uk/pipermail/gllug/attachments/20091210/84f53a6a/attachment.htm From general_email at technicalbloke.com Thu Dec 10 11:06:21 2009 From: general_email at technicalbloke.com (general_email at technicalbloke.com) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 11:06:21 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] HackerSpace In-Reply-To: <20091209204049.GI12648@pgcroft.net> References: <20091209204049.GI12648@pgcroft.net> Message-ID: <4B20D62D.6060906@technicalbloke.com> Lesley wrote: > On Tue, Dec 08, 2009 at 09:53:17AM +0100, Chris Bell wrote: > >> Hello, >> There was interest a while ago in obtaining HackerSpace for a group of >> enthusiasts, while I am interested in providing help for beginners. Has >> there been any progress? >> I attended a local area Forum meeting last night which received a talk by >> a representative of the government and EU backed "Park Royal Partnership" >> covering the largest industrial area in Europe, saying that they are >> interested in working with the community to provide facilities. I have >> agreed to contact their representative to discuss suggestions. >> >> >> > Hi Chris > > I'm replying off list atm > > I have not yet been to Hacker Space nites which are in East London but they > seem to be a hackspace for geeks probably in employement given they seem to > require regular subscriptions and/or on-the-night donations. > > Having seen hackspaces in both London (non-commercial style) and New York (commercial style) I really don't think the former even begin to compare. The London hackspace was a room in a cold squat with about 20 junk computers, some perpetually unfulfilled plans and very little else, the one in NY (NYC resistor) is a beautiful vibrant space with a huge array of cool tools, events and visiting teachers, speakers and classes. Sadly there weren't that many free classes and events but at the end of the day stuff costs money and doesn't tend to happen without it. I don't think it's sustainable to try and build a hackerspace without subscriptions and fees. The main point point of such places is to get access to space and tools that most individuals can't afford individually but can collectively, concessions can always be offered to the unwaged / disadvantaged. Roger. From general_email at technicalbloke.com Thu Dec 10 11:10:59 2009 From: general_email at technicalbloke.com (general_email at technicalbloke.com) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 11:10:59 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] tv tuner with hdmi input In-Reply-To: <4B207E1F.2010107@lineone.net> References: <4B1FA343.5090405@karan.org> <4B207E1F.2010107@lineone.net> Message-ID: <4B20D743.3060306@technicalbloke.com> Andrew Davies wrote: > Karanbir Singh wrote: > >> hi, >> >> There seems to be very conflicting info out there on the internets about >> hdmi capable tv-tuner cards for mythTV. Just wondering if anyone on here >> has used one or knows enough about them to recommend something ? >> >> We have sky+ HD, and the quality of the + box is border line (its the >> Samsung model ). And I would really like to replace just the recording >> capability with a linux box running MythTV. My TV already has a dvi and >> vga input, so getting the content onscreen wont be a big deal. >> >> >> > One of the reasons HDMI was brought in was to create a secure > environment where a signal couldn't be recorded when it was used. HDCP > is part of the HDMI standard that, although not yet turned on (to allow > analogue (Component) HD capable equipment to view HDCP material whilst > people upgraded), will lock down the signal from beginning to end. > Hauppauge make a Component 1080i recording box that is compatible with > Linux (to what level I'm unsure) and this is the only way I've seen to > record a HD signal. > > http://www.mythtv.org/wiki/Hauppauge_HD-PVR > The latest linux outlaws podcast is an interview with one of the Myth TV devs, he mentions the card that he uses personally (although I can't remember off the top of my head which one it is). Even though he's American that might be a good place to start. Roger. From andrew at osmosoft.com Thu Dec 10 12:26:46 2009 From: andrew at osmosoft.com (Andrew Back) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 12:26:46 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] HackerSpace In-Reply-To: <4B20D62D.6060906@technicalbloke.com> References: <20091209204049.GI12648@pgcroft.net> <4B20D62D.6060906@technicalbloke.com> Message-ID: <20091210122646.GC28262@rhys.osmosoft.com> On (11:06 10/12/09), general_email at technicalbloke.com wrote: <> > Having seen hackspaces in both London (non-commercial style) and New > York (commercial style) I really don't think the former even begin to > compare. The London hackspace was a room in a cold squat with about 20 > junk computers, some perpetually unfulfilled plans and very little else, > the one in NY (NYC resistor) is a beautiful vibrant space with a huge > array of cool tools, events and visiting teachers, speakers and classes. > > Sadly there weren't that many free classes and events but at the end of > the day stuff costs money and doesn't tend to happen without it. I don't > think it's sustainable to try and build a hackerspace without > subscriptions and fees. The main point point of such places is to get > access to space and tools that most individuals can't afford > individually but can collectively, concessions can always be offered to > the unwaged / disadvantaged. I strongly disagree. In Glasgow we built the Electron Club hackspace with nothing other than donations of equipment and the odd very small cash donation. E.g. a few of us chipped in a few quid each to register a domain and a few quid more later on to buy wood to build proper shelving. All the equipment was donated, and more recently there were various fundraising initiatives to secure the space its own private ADSL line (rather than sharing the CCAs). Granted, the Centre for Contemporary Arts provides the space rent free, but there will be similar opportunities elsewhere. At the start I was sceptical of the idea that this could all be done without membership fees and such, but through perseverance it worked out, proved sustainable and it has little in common with the dystopian non-commercial hackspace vision you described: http://www.flickr.com/photos/carrierdetect/sets/72157602590274510/ http://www.electronclub.org Not everyone can afford membership fees and even when people can it may sway them the other way if they are unsure it is for them. I'm not against commercial hackspaces, but to suggest non-commercial ones will be extremely poor by comparison is nonsense. Furthermore, once cash comes into the equation it suddenly implies a whole structure for managing spend, official roles and so on. If you can live without this and exist with little more than a clear mission/purpose and basic rules it means you can focus your efforts on the fun stuff whilst being as inclusive as possible. Cheers, Andrew -- Andrew Back mailto:andrew at osmosoft.com http://carrierdetect.com From tm at tm.uklinux.net Thu Dec 10 13:17:51 2009 From: tm at tm.uklinux.net (TM) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 13:17:51 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Thunderbird 3 Message-ID: <4B20F4FF.7010800@tm.uklinux.net> I have been using Thunderbird 3 for quite some time now. Currently on version 3.5.5 (windows) and no such problems. TM From chrisbell at 3966.ukfsn.org Thu Dec 10 14:23:22 2009 From: chrisbell at 3966.ukfsn.org (Chris Bell) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 15:23:22 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Gllug] HackerSpace In-Reply-To: <4e73d5ed0912100302v365ca895g8a0a483b6d93bdff@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu 10 Dec, Dan wrote: > Chris are these forums open to all? As I would be interested in joining a > HackSpace in the Park Royal area. > > Dan > The forum was one of about four meetings per year between residents, councillors, and others such as Council Staff and local police in the East Acton Ward of the London Borough of Ealing. My local councillors have already heard from me plenty of times, and know where I stand. I have also approached the Park Royal Partnership a couple of times before. On this occasion their representative, who works for their transport department, did know about FOSS because his son uses it. It has been a difficult fight so far, but I am beginning to see some further interest. -- Chris Bell www.chrisbell.org.uk (was www.overview.demon.co.uk) Microsoft sells you Windows ... Linux gives you the whole house. From mail-lists at karan.org Thu Dec 10 14:25:33 2009 From: mail-lists at karan.org (Karanbir Singh) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 14:25:33 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Thunderbird 3 In-Reply-To: <4B1FE415.30409@shadowrobot.com> References: <4B1FE415.30409@shadowrobot.com> Message-ID: <4B2104DD.3040704@karan.org> On 12/09/2009 05:53 PM, Rich Walker wrote: > Anyone else tried this? So far I've: > * been unable to access a Perdition IMAPS proxy > * lost a line on my screen to tabs that won't go away > * got several folders coloured a greeny-cyan for no clear reason. > > It's enough to make me use Emacs-under-windows... I've been using tb3 for a while ( I run the nightly 'shredder' edition ) and have to say that the tb3 builds are byfar the best email client I've seen or worked with ever - specially if you run IMAP. Not being familiar with Perdition, I cant comment on it. But what sort of a problem did you run into ? W.r.t the header bar, you can turn the tab display off if there is only 1 tab. And you can further customise the menu bar. A screenshot of what I have it set to is here : http://www.flickr.com/photos/7471003 at N05/4173679989/sizes/o/ The Cyan coloured folders indicate new-previously unseen emails in that imap stores ( its a flag set and cleared on the server side ). I've found it beo an excellent new feature. It makes it trivial to see which folders have 'unread' emails V/s which folders have 'unread and new' emails. And since its set and cleared server side, there is state retention across clients and multiple locations. I guess its a big deal if you run server side filtering ( why would'nt someone do that if they run imap! ). Not that big a deal if all your new unread emails always land in the INBOX. :) -- Karanbir Singh London, UK | http://www.karan.org/ | twitter.com/kbsingh ICQ: 2522219 | Yahoo IM: z00dax | Gtalk: z00dax GnuPG Key : http://www.karan.org/publickey.asc From mail-lists at karan.org Thu Dec 10 14:31:33 2009 From: mail-lists at karan.org (Karanbir Singh) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 14:31:33 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] tv tuner with hdmi input In-Reply-To: <1260405297.10439.12.camel@Gecko.local> References: <4B1FA343.5090405@karan.org> <1260405297.10439.12.camel@Gecko.local> Message-ID: <4B210645.1020301@karan.org> Hi Justin, On 12/10/2009 12:34 AM, Justin Perreault wrote: >> We have sky+ HD, and the quality of the + box is border line (its the > Are you hoping to record the Sky feed or just freeview/freesat? Would be nice to record on the mythtv box, from the sky hd feed. > By quality are you referring to usability or picture aspects? I could have been clearer about that. Quality, to me, for such an appliance box is the overall end user experience. The build quality I am sure is fine, its not broken down yet. But here are times when it will randomly reboot itself ( happened twice last week ). On other occasions I've had it lose timesync and stop recording programs at odd points [ not cool when you miss the last 5 overs of a 20/20 game :( ]. There have also been situations where it will keep running, but lose the signal to the TV. This one was hard to work out what was going on - while watching a show, suddently everything would go blank. After a few weeks we replaced it with a Dell 22" monitor I have, and that also had the same black-outs, but came up with a handy 'no-signal' message. Power cycling the sky hd+ box resolved the situation. So, yes. plenty of 'issues'. Hard to reliably reproduce, so sky engineers seem to think were just mad. -- Karanbir Singh London, UK | http://www.karan.org/ | twitter.com/kbsingh ICQ: 2522219 | Yahoo IM: z00dax | Gtalk: z00dax GnuPG Key : http://www.karan.org/publickey.asc From rw at shadowrobot.com Thu Dec 10 14:43:07 2009 From: rw at shadowrobot.com (Rich Walker) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 14:43:07 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Thunderbird 3 In-Reply-To: <4B2104DD.3040704@karan.org> References: <4B1FE415.30409@shadowrobot.com> <4B2104DD.3040704@karan.org> Message-ID: <4B2108FB.4030907@shadowrobot.com> On 10/12/2009 14:25, Karanbir Singh wrote: > Not being familiar with Perdition, I cant comment on it. But what sort > of a problem did you run into ? Perdition is accessed with IMAPS, and has a certificate. Thunderbird 3 won't get that certificate - it claims it can't identify the server. TB2 was quite happy with it. > > W.r.t the header bar, you can turn the tab display off if there is only > 1 tab. And you can further customise the menu bar. A screenshot of what > I have it set to is here : > http://www.flickr.com/photos/7471003 at N05/4173679989/sizes/o/ I found the setting in the advanced config to turn the tabs off :-) > The Cyan coloured folders indicate new-previously unseen emails in that > imap stores ( its a flag set and cleared on the server side ). I've > found it beo an excellent new feature. It makes it trivial to see which > folders have 'unread' emails V/s which folders have 'unread and new' > emails. And since its set and cleared server side, there is state > retention across clients and multiple locations. I guess its a big deal > if you run server side filtering ( why would'nt someone do that if they > run imap! ). Not that big a deal if all your new unread emails always > land in the INBOX. :) Right - so that's the emails that are starred when you open the folder. Makes sense now. The summary pane when you select multiple emails is nice, too - shame it doesn't seem to do Lightning any more... cheers, Rich. > -- rich walker | Shadow Robot Company | rw at shadowrobot.com managing director 251 Liverpool Road | skype: rich_at_shadow need a Hand? London N1 1LX | +44 20 7700 2487 http://www.shadowrobot.com/hand/ @shadowrobot From ben at whyte-systems.co.uk Thu Dec 10 14:49:44 2009 From: ben at whyte-systems.co.uk (Ben Whyall) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 14:49:44 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Thunderbird 3 In-Reply-To: <4B2108FB.4030907@shadowrobot.com> References: <4B1FE415.30409@shadowrobot.com> <4B2104DD.3040704@karan.org> <4B2108FB.4030907@shadowrobot.com> Message-ID: <4B210A88.1000101@whyte-systems.co.uk> On 10/12/2009 14:43, Rich Walker wrote: > On 10/12/2009 14:25, Karanbir Singh wrote: > >> Not being familiar with Perdition, I cant comment on it. But what sort >> of a problem did you run into ? > > Perdition is accessed with IMAPS, and has a certificate. Thunderbird 3 > won't get that certificate - it claims it can't identify the server. TB2 > was quite happy with it. > > I think you should be able to add a security exceptions for the certificate. When you get the error, does it give you the option to examine certificate, it may be in there. Ben >> >> W.r.t the header bar, you can turn the tab display off if there is only >> 1 tab. And you can further customise the menu bar. A screenshot of what >> I have it set to is here : >> http://www.flickr.com/photos/7471003 at N05/4173679989/sizes/o/ > > I found the setting in the advanced config to turn the tabs off :-) > > > >> The Cyan coloured folders indicate new-previously unseen emails in that >> imap stores ( its a flag set and cleared on the server side ). I've >> found it beo an excellent new feature. It makes it trivial to see which >> folders have 'unread' emails V/s which folders have 'unread and new' >> emails. And since its set and cleared server side, there is state >> retention across clients and multiple locations. I guess its a big deal >> if you run server side filtering ( why would'nt someone do that if they >> run imap! ). Not that big a deal if all your new unread emails always >> land in the INBOX. :) > > Right - so that's the emails that are starred when you open the folder. > Makes sense now. The summary pane when you select multiple emails is > nice, too - shame it doesn't seem to do Lightning any more... > > cheers, Rich. > >> > > From chrisbell at 3966.ukfsn.org Thu Dec 10 15:07:58 2009 From: chrisbell at 3966.ukfsn.org (Chris Bell) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 16:07:58 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Gllug] tv tuner with hdmi input In-Reply-To: <4B210645.1020301@karan.org> Message-ID: On Thu 10 Dec, Karanbir Singh wrote: > > > So, yes. plenty of 'issues'. Hard to reliably reproduce, so sky > engineers seem to think were just mad. > I have a large outdoor aerial, but it points along a busy main road and I am a few miles from the transmitter on the wrong side of a hill, so my set top boxes occasionally loose lock. I also think that some vehicles are fitted with high power transmitters. -- Chris Bell www.chrisbell.org.uk (was www.overview.demon.co.uk) Microsoft sells you Windows ... Linux gives you the whole house. From rw at shadowrobot.com Thu Dec 10 15:12:08 2009 From: rw at shadowrobot.com (Rich Walker) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 15:12:08 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Thunderbird 3 In-Reply-To: <4B210A88.1000101@whyte-systems.co.uk> References: <4B1FE415.30409@shadowrobot.com> <4B2104DD.3040704@karan.org> <4B2108FB.4030907@shadowrobot.com> <4B210A88.1000101@whyte-systems.co.uk> Message-ID: <4B210FC8.8090204@shadowrobot.com> On 10/12/2009 14:49, Ben Whyall wrote: > I think you should be able to add a security exceptions for the certificate. > > When you get the error, does it give you the option to examine > certificate, it may be in there. That's the bit that's failing. When I tell it to get the certificate, it complains about not being able to identify the server, and pretends there's no certificate... Using openssl in client test mode definitely returns the certificate, and using TB2 worked as well. cheers, Rich. -- rich walker | Shadow Robot Company | rw at shadowrobot.com managing director 251 Liverpool Road | skype: rich_at_shadow need a Hand? London N1 1LX | +44 20 7700 2487 http://www.shadowrobot.com/hand/ @shadowrobot From bap at shrdlu.com Thu Dec 10 15:24:00 2009 From: bap at shrdlu.com (Bernard Peek) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 15:24:00 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Thunderbird 3 In-Reply-To: <4B2104DD.3040704@karan.org> References: <4B1FE415.30409@shadowrobot.com> <4B2104DD.3040704@karan.org> Message-ID: <4B211290.20708@shrdlu.com> Karanbir Singh wrote: > On 12/09/2009 05:53 PM, Rich Walker wrote: > >> Anyone else tried this? So far I've: >> * been unable to access a Perdition IMAPS proxy >> * lost a line on my screen to tabs that won't go away >> * got several folders coloured a greeny-cyan for no clear reason. >> >> It's enough to make me use Emacs-under-windows... >> > > I've been using tb3 for a while ( I run the nightly 'shredder' edition ) > and have to say that the tb3 builds are byfar the best email client I've > seen or worked with ever - specially if you run IMAP. > It's the second-best for me, but then I'm pick enough to actually pay for a mail and news client - Turnpike. I'm running TB on my Linux boxes though. Support for Turnpike has effectively ended though, and it won't run in 64-bit versions of Windows because of a bug that MS apparently aren't planning to fix. The people in demon.ip.support.turnpike have been debating whether TB3 is the replacement they are looking for. Turnpike is one of the two programs that keep me using Windows (the other is MS Access) and I'm actively looking for alternatives to both of them so that I can drop Windows completely at home. -- bap at shrdlu.com From farnsaw at stonedoor.com Thu Dec 10 14:57:36 2009 From: farnsaw at stonedoor.com (Andrew Farnsworth) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 09:57:36 -0500 Subject: [Gllug] Thunderbird 3 Message-ID: <56155.1260457056@stonedoor.com> On Thu Dec 10 8:17 , TM sent: >I have been using Thunderbird 3 for quite some time now. Currently on >version 3.5.5 (windows) and no such problems. > >TM I think you are talking about the FireFox web browser rather than the Thunderbird email client. Andy From chrisbell at 3966.ukfsn.org Thu Dec 10 16:35:32 2009 From: chrisbell at 3966.ukfsn.org (Chris Bell) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 17:35:32 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Gllug] HackerSpace In-Reply-To: <4e73d5ed0912100302v365ca895g8a0a483b6d93bdff@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu 10 Dec, Dan wrote: > Chris are these forums open to all? As I would be interested in joining a > HackSpace in the Park Royal area. > > Dan > Park Royal Partnership covers parts of Hammersmith and Fulham, Brent, and Ealing, and includes anyone who lives or works in the area. Their HQ near North Acton Central Line station is Monarch House, Victoria Road, London, W3 6UR If you live nearby I suggest you also contact your local councillors. I have made the point that the general lack of knowledge about anything other than passive use of Microsoft software demonstrates a failure of the UK education system. Encouraging the community to learn more about what is available is likely to benefit local businesses. -- Chris Bell www.chrisbell.org.uk (was www.overview.demon.co.uk) Microsoft sells you Windows ... Linux gives you the whole house. From mail-lists at karan.org Thu Dec 10 17:00:10 2009 From: mail-lists at karan.org (Karanbir Singh) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 17:00:10 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Thunderbird 3 In-Reply-To: <4B2108FB.4030907@shadowrobot.com> References: <4B1FE415.30409@shadowrobot.com> <4B2104DD.3040704@karan.org> <4B2108FB.4030907@shadowrobot.com> Message-ID: <4B21291A.8020507@karan.org> On 12/10/2009 02:43 PM, Rich Walker wrote: > Perdition is accessed with IMAPS, and has a certificate. Thunderbird 3 > won't get that certificate - it claims it can't identify the server. TB2 > was quite happy with it. in the 'Validation' Tab of the 'Certificates' option in 'Advanced properties', can you check that OCSP isnt set to autoassume non-checkable = fail! > I found the setting in the advanced config to turn the tabs off :-) right, and you can right click on the menu bar and drag all the things you need / use onto the topmost bar! although, thats been possible since the early mozilla builds ( 0.4 or something ) > nice, too - shame it doesn't seem to do Lightning any more... Sunbird perhaps ? -- Karanbir Singh London, UK | http://www.karan.org/ | twitter.com/kbsingh ICQ: 2522219 | Yahoo IM: z00dax | Gtalk: z00dax GnuPG Key : http://www.karan.org/publickey.asc From rw at shadowrobot.com Thu Dec 10 17:08:12 2009 From: rw at shadowrobot.com (Rich Walker) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 17:08:12 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Thunderbird 3 In-Reply-To: <4B21291A.8020507@karan.org> References: <4B1FE415.30409@shadowrobot.com> <4B2104DD.3040704@karan.org> <4B2108FB.4030907@shadowrobot.com> <4B21291A.8020507@karan.org> Message-ID: <4B212AFC.4060002@shadowrobot.com> On 10/12/2009 17:00, Karanbir Singh wrote: > On 12/10/2009 02:43 PM, Rich Walker wrote: >> Perdition is accessed with IMAPS, and has a certificate. Thunderbird 3 >> won't get that certificate - it claims it can't identify the server. TB2 >> was quite happy with it. > > in the 'Validation' Tab of the 'Certificates' option in 'Advanced > properties', can you check that OCSP isnt set to autoassume > non-checkable = fail! I had OCSP completely disabled - enabling OCSP and then setting it as suggested seems to work... nice one! > >> I found the setting in the advanced config to turn the tabs off :-) > > right, and you can right click on the menu bar and drag all the things > you need / use onto the topmost bar! although, thats been possible since > the early mozilla builds ( 0.4 or something ) > >> nice, too - shame it doesn't seem to do Lightning any more... > > Sunbird perhaps ? > That's where I ended up, yes. cheers, Rich. > -- rich walker | Shadow Robot Company | rw at shadowrobot.com managing director 251 Liverpool Road | skype: rich_at_shadow need a Hand? London N1 1LX | +44 20 7700 2487 http://www.shadowrobot.com/hand/ @shadowrobot From john at cornerstonelinux.co.uk Thu Dec 10 17:11:46 2009 From: john at cornerstonelinux.co.uk (John Edwards) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 17:11:46 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Thunderbird 3 In-Reply-To: <4B2108FB.4030907@shadowrobot.com> References: <4B1FE415.30409@shadowrobot.com> <4B2104DD.3040704@karan.org> <4B2108FB.4030907@shadowrobot.com> Message-ID: <20091210171145.GN17365@cornerstonelinux.co.uk> On Thu, Dec 10, 2009 at 02:43:07PM +0000, Rich Walker wrote: > Right - so that's the emails that are starred when you open the folder. > Makes sense now. The summary pane when you select multiple emails is > nice, too - shame it doesn't seem to do Lightning any more... It will when the next version of Lightning is released. -- #---------------------------------------------------------# | John Edwards Email: john at cornerstonelinux.co.uk | #---------------------------------------------------------# -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: Digital signature Url : http://lists.gllug.org.uk/pipermail/gllug/attachments/20091210/82296d52/attachment.pgp From gllug at dinkum.org.uk Thu Dec 10 17:32:46 2009 From: gllug at dinkum.org.uk (Andre Newman) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 17:32:46 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] tv tuner with hdmi input In-Reply-To: <4B207E1F.2010107@lineone.net> References: <4B1FA343.5090405@karan.org> <4B207E1F.2010107@lineone.net> Message-ID: On 10 Dec 2009, at 04:50, Andrew Davies wrote: > > Hauppauge make a Component 1080i recording box that is compatible with > Linux (to what level I'm unsure) and this is the only way I've seen to > record a HD signal. > > http://www.mythtv.org/wiki/Hauppauge_HD-PVR There's currently a rather long thread on the mythtv list about problems with this, I've always felt that capturing and re-compressing the Sky Box output is really just asking for problems. If your Sky box is crashing the HD-PVR will just record the frozen or otherwise broken output, you will have the unreliability of your Sky box multiplied by the unreliability of a HD-PVR multiplied by the unreliability of MythTV! There are ways not involving the Sky box at all, be very persistent and creative with your searches and you will see, make sure everything is very up to date. I'm a long time MythTV user but look at VDR too, some prefer it, it's certainly simpler and a lot more robust, you may find that MythTV isn't any more stable than your Sky box. Being an Engineer for a moment; do you have good signal strength, is your dish properly aligned, not damaged, trees overgrown although that's usually a spring problem. Are your cables good quality (not shotgun cable), water sealed at the dish, not rubbed through somewhere (sky love throwing cables over roofs) and good plugs properly fitted at the Sky box end?? I find that all PVR's (including MythTV) crash much more often if the video (and EPG) signals they are receiving have a high error rate. Andre From cehunter at gb-x.org Thu Dec 10 20:44:58 2009 From: cehunter at gb-x.org (Christopher Hunter) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 20:44:58 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] tv tuner with hdmi input In-Reply-To: <4B210645.1020301@karan.org> References: <4B1FA343.5090405@karan.org> <1260405297.10439.12.camel@Gecko.local> <4B210645.1020301@karan.org> Message-ID: <1260477898.19447.11.camel@localhost> On Thu, 2009-12-10 at 14:31 +0000, Karanbir Singh wrote > The build quality I am sure is fine, it's not broken down yet. Actually, it has! The faults you describe are significant failures. > But here are times when it will randomly reboot itself ( happened > twice last week ). On other occasions I've had it lose timesync and > stop recording programs at odd points [not cool when you miss the > last 5 overs of a 20/20 game :( ]. I'm certainly with you there! Not a good state of affairs - and definitely a significant failure, though I'm certain that Sky will blame your inability to operate it correctly! > There have also been situations where it will keep running, but lose the > signal to the TV. This one was hard to work out what was going on - > while watching a show, suddenly everything would go blank. After a few > weeks we replaced it with a Dell 22" monitor I have, and that also had > the same black-outs, but came up with a handy 'no-signal' message. I'm told that this is quite a common problem. > Power cycling the sky hd+ box resolved the situation. That suggests that either the firmware's flaky (probable) or that there's a thermal problem with the electronics. You could eliminate the possibility of the thermal problem by making sure that there's a good air gap around all sides of the thing, and that it's away from other sources of heat (and NOT placed on top of the TV!). > > So, yes. plenty of 'issues'. Hard to reliably reproduce, so sky > engineers seem to think were just mad. Not at all - they just can't be bothered with trying to deal with real, intermittent faults. Also, I can assure you that the people you've talked to aren't "engineers" at all - though they might represent themselves as such. They're clueless installers and telesales drones and know much less about the equipment than you do! If you get no joy out of them (and it's probable that you won't), you might have to break the machine so that it doesn't work at all, and get them to replace it. That way you should get the updated version! You'll just have to be careful to make your vandalism subtle enough to prevent them realising what's gone on! C. From general_email at technicalbloke.com Thu Dec 10 21:47:47 2009 From: general_email at technicalbloke.com (general_email at technicalbloke.com) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 21:47:47 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Thunderbird 3 In-Reply-To: <4B211290.20708@shrdlu.com> References: <4B1FE415.30409@shadowrobot.com> <4B2104DD.3040704@karan.org> <4B211290.20708@shrdlu.com> Message-ID: <4B216C83.6040007@technicalbloke.com> Bernard Peek wrote: > Karanbir Singh wrote: > >> On 12/09/2009 05:53 PM, Rich Walker wrote: >> >> >>> Anyone else tried this? So far I've: >>> * been unable to access a Perdition IMAPS proxy >>> * lost a line on my screen to tabs that won't go away >>> * got several folders coloured a greeny-cyan for no clear reason. >>> >>> It's enough to make me use Emacs-under-windows... >>> >>> >> I've been using tb3 for a while ( I run the nightly 'shredder' edition ) >> and have to say that the tb3 builds are byfar the best email client I've >> seen or worked with ever - specially if you run IMAP. >> >> > It's the second-best for me, but then I'm pick enough to actually pay > for a mail and news client - Turnpike. I'm running TB on my Linux boxes > though. > > Support for Turnpike has effectively ended though, and it won't run in > 64-bit versions of Windows because of a bug that MS apparently aren't > planning to fix. The people in demon.ip.support.turnpike have been > debating whether TB3 is the replacement they are looking for. Turnpike > is one of the two programs that keep me using Windows (the other is MS > Access) and I'm actively looking for alternatives to both of them so > that I can drop Windows completely at home. > > > OMG Turnpike still exists! That's quite a blast from the past, I remember getting it from demon in the mid/late 90s. It was a really good program at the time but I've not heard mention of it for over a decade. Roger. From general_email at technicalbloke.com Thu Dec 10 22:09:17 2009 From: general_email at technicalbloke.com (general_email at technicalbloke.com) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 22:09:17 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] HackerSpace In-Reply-To: <20091210122646.GC28262@rhys.osmosoft.com> References: <20091209204049.GI12648@pgcroft.net> <4B20D62D.6060906@technicalbloke.com> <20091210122646.GC28262@rhys.osmosoft.com> Message-ID: <4B21718D.5010209@technicalbloke.com> Andrew Back wrote: > On (11:06 10/12/09), general_email at technicalbloke.com wrote: > > <> > > >> Having seen hackspaces in both London (non-commercial style) and New >> York (commercial style) I really don't think the former even begin to >> compare. The London hackspace was a room in a cold squat with about 20 >> junk computers, some perpetually unfulfilled plans and very little else, >> the one in NY (NYC resistor) is a beautiful vibrant space with a huge >> array of cool tools, events and visiting teachers, speakers and classes. >> >> Sadly there weren't that many free classes and events but at the end of >> the day stuff costs money and doesn't tend to happen without it. I don't >> think it's sustainable to try and build a hackerspace without >> subscriptions and fees. The main point point of such places is to get >> access to space and tools that most individuals can't afford >> individually but can collectively, concessions can always be offered to >> the unwaged / disadvantaged. >> > > I strongly disagree. In Glasgow we built the Electron Club hackspace with > nothing other than donations of equipment and the odd very small cash > donation. E.g. a few of us chipped in a few quid each to register a domain > and a few quid more later on to buy wood to build proper shelving. All the > equipment was donated, and more recently there were various fundraising > initiatives to secure the space its own private ADSL line (rather than > sharing the CCAs). > > Granted, the Centre for Contemporary Arts provides the space rent free, but > there will be similar opportunities elsewhere. At the start I was sceptical > of the idea that this could all be done without membership fees and such, > but through perseverance it worked out, proved sustainable and it has little > in common with the dystopian non-commercial hackspace vision you described: > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/carrierdetect/sets/72157602590274510/ > > http://www.electronclub.org > > Not everyone can afford membership fees and even when people can it may sway > them the other way if they are unsure it is for them. I'm not against > commercial hackspaces, but to suggest non-commercial ones will be extremely > poor by comparison is nonsense. Furthermore, once cash comes into the > equation it suddenly implies a whole structure for managing spend, official > roles and so on. If you can live without this and exist with little more > than a clear mission/purpose and basic rules it means you can focus your > efforts on the fun stuff whilst being as inclusive as possible. > > Cheers, > > Andrew > > Agreed, with some funding from somewhere you might get a decent place going but then, chances are, you'll make yourself dependent on funding which can be pretty ethereal at the best of times, let alone on the brink of a Tory administration! I think contributing cash, even if it's a token amount really increase peoples engagement and sense of ownership of the project. As I said there's no reason there couldn't be concessions and from what I recall you could pay your dues at NYCR by contributing time and or equipment rather than just plain cash. Also, I didn't mean to suggest a less commercial endeavour would always be 'extremely poor', those are just my experiences to date. I still think you'd struggle to build a space as dynamic and vital as NYCR on charity funding alone though. Not to disrespect yours or their efforts (it looks a lot better than anything I've seen in the UK date) but the electronclub.org front page was last updated 6 months ago, the nycresistor.com one - 5 days ago. Of course one should be careful with the conclusion one draws from such tiny sample sets, maybe I'm wrong. I hope so as I'd like a good London hackspace and I don't have a very high disposable income right now :) Cheers, Roger. From rich at annexia.org Wed Dec 9 20:11:58 2009 From: rich at annexia.org (Richard Jones) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2009 20:11:58 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Thunderbird 3 In-Reply-To: <4B1FE415.30409@shadowrobot.com> References: <4B1FE415.30409@shadowrobot.com> Message-ID: <20091209201158.GA716@annexia.org> On Wed, Dec 09, 2009 at 05:53:25PM +0000, Rich Walker wrote: > Anyone else tried this? So far I've: > * been unable to access a Perdition IMAPS proxy > * lost a line on my screen to tabs that won't go away > * got several folders coloured a greeny-cyan for no clear reason. > > It's enough to make me use Emacs-under-windows... Or mutt? I used Thunderbird briefly when I started working for Red Hat, but soon switched to mutt and I haven't looked back. Although possibly I'm now looking forward to things like 'sup' and 'notmuch': http://sup.rubyforge.org/ http://notmuchmail.org/ Rich. -- Richard Jones Red Hat From andrew at osmosoft.com Fri Dec 11 00:44:14 2009 From: andrew at osmosoft.com (Andrew Back) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 00:44:14 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] HackerSpace In-Reply-To: <4B21718D.5010209@technicalbloke.com> References: <20091209204049.GI12648@pgcroft.net> <4B20D62D.6060906@technicalbloke.com> <20091210122646.GC28262@rhys.osmosoft.com> <4B21718D.5010209@technicalbloke.com> Message-ID: <20091211004413.GA5134@rhys.osmosoft.com> On (22:09 10/12/09), general_email at technicalbloke.com wrote: <> > Agreed, with some funding from somewhere you might get a decent place > going but then, chances are, you'll make yourself dependent on funding > which can be pretty ethereal at the best of times, let alone on the > brink of a Tory administration! I think contributing cash, even if it's > a token amount really increase peoples engagement and sense of ownership > of the project. As I said there's no reason there couldn't be > concessions and from what I recall you could pay your dues at NYCR by > contributing time and or equipment rather than just plain cash. The Electron Club is not "funded" as such. It just has free space. > Also, I didn't mean to suggest a less commercial endeavour would always > be 'extremely poor', those are just my experiences to date. I still > think you'd struggle to build a space as dynamic and vital as NYCR on > charity funding alone though. Not to disrespect yours or their efforts > (it looks a lot better than anything I've seen in the UK date) but the > electronclub.org front page was last updated 6 months ago, the > nycresistor.com one - 5 days ago. Of course one should be careful with > the conclusion one draws from such tiny sample sets, maybe I'm wrong. I > hope so as I'd like a good London hackspace and I don't have a very high > disposable income right now :) Have you visited the Electron Club and NYC Resistor? As for site updates the EC wiki may be out of date but the mailing list is fairly active and the space even more so. Just saying. Cheers, Andrew -- Andrew Back mailto:andrew at osmosoft.com http://carrierdetect.com From felix.swart at googlemail.com Thu Dec 10 16:09:36 2009 From: felix.swart at googlemail.com (felix swart) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 16:09:36 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Internet connection through mobile phone Message-ID: Hi all, I have moved into a flat which is not connected to the local exchange and am loathe to hand over roughly £120 to BT for the connection. Does anyone have experience with mobile internet used for a home connection; no streaming or downloading distro images, just general surfing. Related to that: Has anyone played with the Nokia N900? Any comments on its suitability as a mobile internet modem? Cheers, Felix -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.gllug.org.uk/pipermail/gllug/attachments/20091210/4c7a239c/attachment.htm From t.menezes at tm.uklinux.net Thu Dec 10 15:46:29 2009 From: t.menezes at tm.uklinux.net (T Menezes) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 15:46:29 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Gllug Digest, Vol 78, Issue 25 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B2117D5.9060303@tm.uklinux.net> Apologies for my previous message, for some reason my coffee-deprived brain had read Firefox... > I have been using Thunderbird 3 for quite some time now. Currently on > version 3.5.5 (windows) and no such problems. > On the subject of Thunderbird, I am still using 2.0.0.23 (windows). I only face problems with this version when I connect to the MS Exchange server at work. I used to have trouble with partially downloaded attachments. This is now solved by tweaking TB. However, I recurrently 'loose' the index to the folders I select for off-line use. I'm not able to put my finger on it but it seems to happen when the network connection goes down halfway through updating said folder (prior to going off-line). The local files seem to all be there, but TB shows the folders as empty. So far, the only way I know to recover from this is to re-connect to the server and leave TB to 'download the headers' again - a total pain if you have big mail boxes... TM From andre at dinkum.org.uk Thu Dec 10 17:26:01 2009 From: andre at dinkum.org.uk (Andre Newman) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 17:26:01 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] tv tuner with hdmi input In-Reply-To: <4B207E1F.2010107@lineone.net> References: <4B1FA343.5090405@karan.org> <4B207E1F.2010107@lineone.net> Message-ID: On 10 Dec 2009, at 04:50, Andrew Davies wrote: > > Hauppauge make a Component 1080i recording box that is compatible with > Linux (to what level I'm unsure) and this is the only way I've seen to > record a HD signal. > > http://www.mythtv.org/wiki/Hauppauge_HD-PVR There's currently a rather long thread on the mythtv list about problems with this, I've always felt that capturing and re-compressing the Sky Box output is really just asking for problems. If your Sky box is crashing the HD-PVR will just record the frozen or otherwise broken output, you will have the unreliability of your Sky box multiplied by the unreliability of a HD-PVR multiplied by the unreliability of MythTV! There are ways not involving the Sky box at all, be very persistent and creative with your searches and you will see, make sure everything is very up to date. I'm a long time MythTV user but look at VDR too, some prefer it, it's certainly simpler and a lot more robust, you may find that MythTV isn't any more stable than your Sky box. Being an Engineer for a moment; do you have good signal strength, is your dish properly aligned, not damaged, trees overgrown although that's usually a spring problem. Are your cables good quality (not shotgun cable), water sealed at the dish, not rubbed through somewhere (sky love throwing cables over roofs) and good plugs properly fitted at the Sky box end?? I find that all PVR's (including MythTV) crash much more often if the video (and EPG) signals they are receiving have a high error rate. Andre From abuse at cabal.org.uk Fri Dec 11 11:35:05 2009 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 11:35:05 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Internet connection through mobile phone In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 10 Dec 2009, at 16:09, felix swart wrote: > I have moved into a flat which is not connected to the local > exchange and am loathe to hand over roughly £120 to BT for the > connection. Does anyone have experience with mobile internet used > for a home connection; no streaming or downloading distro images, > just general surfing. You should be able to get the line installed for less than that if you shop around. Sometimes BT themselves have a deal on if you lock-in to a particular package, and there are also LLU providers who will do the line install for you. I have a Huwaei 3G dongle on 3 which I use for back-up and mobile access. It beats having no Internet access, but it's hardly great either. It's nice and fast when it works - about 2-3Mb/s in Shepherd's Bush - but there are enough annoying signal drop-outs that it knackers interactive stuff such as web surfing and ssh. 3 is the cheapest network for data. Some argue it's good, some think it's rubbish. You might find another network more reliable, but the pricing will soon make a fixed line more attractive once more. I'd just pay the £120, really. It's a lot less bother in the long run. From justinperreault at dl-jp.com Fri Dec 11 12:00:29 2009 From: justinperreault at dl-jp.com (Justin Perreault) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 12:00:29 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] tv tuner with hdmi input In-Reply-To: <4B210645.1020301@karan.org> References: <4B1FA343.5090405@karan.org> <1260405297.10439.12.camel@Gecko.local> <4B210645.1020301@karan.org> Message-ID: <1260532829.18333.67.camel@Gecko.local> On Thu, 2009-12-10 at 14:31 +0000, Karanbir Singh wrote: > On 12/10/2009 12:34 AM, Justin Perreault wrote: > >> We have sky+ HD, and the quality of the + box is border line (its the > > Are you hoping to record the Sky feed or just freeview/freesat? > Would be nice to record on the mythtv box, from the sky hd feed. There are a couple of options which will allow this to happen and searching for mythtv record sky will get you started on various points of view. > > By quality are you referring to usability or picture aspects? > > I could have been clearer about that. Quality, to me, for such an > appliance box is the overall end user experience. The build quality I am > sure is fine, its not broken down yet. But here are times when it will > randomly reboot itself ( happened twice last week ). On other occasions > I've had it lose timesync and stop recording programs at odd points [ > not cool when you miss the last 5 overs of a 20/20 game :( ]. The problem is when live shows run over time they commonly don't update the tv listings and the automated software can only respond to what it is given. I have found Mythtv to be great at dealing with schedule changes especially as adding more tuners allows more shows to be recorded at once which keeps scheduling conflicts to a minimum. With sky of course you end up having to get multiple receivers and contracts to gain some of this flexibility. For your situation I would recommend setting a record program to start before a match by a few minutes and to finish an hour or two afterwards, though I would have thought that such manual programme recording should be possible on the box you have now. I jumped straight to Mythtv so have no experience with STB PVR's but vcr's could do it. Mythtv allows more customization than you will ever want and includes the ability to set programs to automatically start and finish recordings outside of their scheduled time.(You could set all football games that ever come on to automatically record starting 5 mins be for schedule and finishing 2 hours after the schedule, though specifying teams and channels might be worth while.) For all it's complication and flexibility once set up mythtv is great. Once set you can just leave it. My wife loves it and it really does transform how you consume TV. > There have also been situations where it will keep running, but lose the > signal to the TV. This one was hard to work out what was going on - > while watching a show, suddently everything would go blank. After a few > weeks we replaced it with a Dell 22" monitor I have, and that also had > the same black-outs, but came up with a handy 'no-signal' message. Power > cycling the sky hd+ box resolved the situation. You will definitely be able to get more feed back as the logs will expose what is going on(be sure to limit the log size in some way). I have found digital signals to have less leeway than analogue. If the signal drops out you might want to consider a booster set to a low level. Over boosting will kill the signal. > So, yes. plenty of 'issues'. Hard to reliably reproduce, so sky > engineers seem to think were just mad. As mentioned by others, a mythtv box might also crash when you are having signal issues and introducing a mythtv box may compound the frustrations you get. Though of course as you can actually play with the system it is possible to find ways around problems. I found that my system was only dying once every 3-4 months, unless I toyed with it. If you fancy making a rf power cycling script that uses object recognition(or sound variance recognition) to watch the signal for you from a remote machine, then a couple of X10 power switches will let you cycle your sky box automatically along with your myth box if needed. I also found that the initial set up is easy and quick but the customization can take a while. The time investment is worth it however if you go back to toying with your system after a long time and mess it up you may not find you have the time to expend to correct it back to where you were. I have been without my mythtv box for several months and missed the beginning of the season for several shows. Hth, Justin From justinperreault at dl-jp.com Fri Dec 11 12:14:22 2009 From: justinperreault at dl-jp.com (Justin Perreault) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 12:14:22 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Internet connection through mobile phone In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1260533662.18333.75.camel@Gecko.local> On Thu, 2009-12-10 at 16:09 +0000, felix swart wrote: > Related to that: Has anyone played with the Nokia N900? Any comments > on its suitability as a mobile internet modem? My N900 is pretty. :) Being the mobile computer it is should allow it to work well. As it has TV out you might choose to use it instead of a laptop :P My first pocket computer with phone capability so I am in the process of finding a suitable carrier. Unfortunate(as they have the least restrictive internet use terms), 3 does not work on the N900 yet. T-Mobile blocks some services. I have heard that O2 is highly advisable. When I try someone I'll give it a go. Justin -- If you are an adult, you can choose to act like a child. If you do not accept being an adult, you are only a child. -JJJ From jjllmmss at googlemail.com Fri Dec 11 12:17:47 2009 From: jjllmmss at googlemail.com (JLMS) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 12:17:47 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Internet connection through mobile phone In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 10, 2009 at 4:09 PM, felix swart wrote: > Hi all, > > I have moved into a flat which is not connected to the local exchange and am > loathe to hand over roughly £120 to BT for the connection. Does anyone have > experience with mobile internet used for a home connection; no streaming or > downloading distro images, just general surfing. > > Related to that: Has anyone played with the Nokia N900? Any comments on its > suitability as a mobile internet modem? > > Cheers, > Felix > Get a package with Virgin Media if you have coverage. If you do but don't wish to use Virgin Media, call back BT and tell them that Virgin Media are doing installation for free and that you will sign with Virgin Media if BT does not give you a good discount for the installation. They would be dumb to lose a client inste I used to have Virgin Media (NTL, whatever) cable connectivity and it was superb. Sorry to say, but relying on mobile internet only is something you wish only in your worst enemies, and even then it would be with a heavy heart. From tjoshi at lonix.org.uk Fri Dec 11 14:47:09 2009 From: tjoshi at lonix.org.uk (Tushar) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 14:47:09 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Lonix - London Linux User Group (Christmas 2010) Message-ID: <1779-1260542686386136@lonix.org.uk> Hi , Here are the details of the next meeting for Lonix, Date: Wednesday 16 Dec 2009 Time: 6.00pm onwards Place: Alphabet Bar 61-63 Beak Street W1F 9SL Map: http://tinyurl.com/alphabetsoho Nearest Tube: Oxford Street, Piccadilly Circus Phone: 020 8896 2600 Just in time for Christmas and sorry there isn't more warning but we'll be having our annual Lonix Christmas party at the Alphabet bar, downstairs. There's a large selection of food from tacos, various tapas and cheese and meat sharing boards as well as Budvar and Fruhli on tap and a wide variety of cocktails and bottled beers. We will be heading at around 9.30 to get something to eat very nearby for those who have resisted thus far on the food. There'll be plenty of Linux, Mac and other related talk, arguments and discussions as well as a tech quiz, so get swotting before hand. New members especially welcome as this is a good time to meet other new members. Hope you can make it down! Tushar Tushar This e-mail was sent to you because you have subscribed to the Lonix meetings notification e-mail list. If you have any questions concerning this please contact us on www.lonix.org.uk/?showContact You can get out by logging in and then clicking on mailling list on the left and then choose the relevant list. This will remove you once and for all. Your Lonix Account Details are: Login via : http://www.lonix.org.uk Username: gllug at linux.co.uk Password: ****** From andy at strugglers.net Fri Dec 11 18:34:08 2009 From: andy at strugglers.net (Andy Smith) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 18:34:08 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Battery-backed SAS controllers Message-ID: <20091211183408.GG15325@bitfolk.com> Hello, Anyone know of a battery-backed SAS controller? That is, something like a RAID controller that takes SAS disks but without any RAID features, just a battery backed write cache and the disks exposed to the OS. Cheers, Andy -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: Digital signature Url : http://lists.gllug.org.uk/pipermail/gllug/attachments/20091211/9da9467d/attachment.pgp From cehunter at gb-x.org Fri Dec 11 20:48:20 2009 From: cehunter at gb-x.org (Christopher Hunter) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 20:48:20 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Internet connection through mobile phone In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1260564500.9996.9.camel@localhost> On Thu, 2009-12-10 at 16:09 +0000, felix swart wrote: > Hi all, > > I have moved into a flat which is not connected to the local exchange > and am loathe to hand over roughly £120 to BT for the connection. Unfortunately, for any kind of halfway decent service, you're going to have to swallow that cost. However, BT do occasionally have "sales", when they will install for almost nothing (I took advantage of one such a few months ago). It would be worth contacting them and seeing what they offer. > Does anyone have experience with mobile internet used for a home > connection; no streaming or downloading distro images, just general > surfing. Forget it. It's seriously expensive, unreliable, slow, capped, filtered and generally crap. You will save the full cost of the BT installation in just a few months if you go with one of the cheaper ISP via ADSL offerings, rather than waste your hard-earned on mobile "broadband"! > Related to that: Has anyone played with the Nokia N900? As a phone, it's relatively big and clunky, and pretty expensive (you have to remember that the service providers always recoup the cost of the phone off you some way or other!). As a modem, it's slow - just because it's trying to use a mobile phone network for an unintended purpose. Don't believe the hype about 3G, EDGE, GPRS and all the rest - it really is just marketing BS, and you will NEVER achieve anything like the rates they advertise. Of course they'll tell you that you're in a poor area, or you're using "unsupported" software or any other of a thousand excuses! > Any comments on its suitability as a mobile internet modem? See the rant above! C. From caroline.ford.work at googlemail.com Fri Dec 11 20:56:46 2009 From: caroline.ford.work at googlemail.com (Caroline Ford) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 20:56:46 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Internet connection through mobile phone In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 2009/12/10 felix swart > Hi all, > > I have moved into a flat which is not connected to the local exchange and > am loathe to hand over roughly £120 to BT for the connection. Does anyone > have experience with mobile internet used for a home connection; no > streaming or downloading distro images, just general surfing. > > It's terrible. Third rate, blocked ports, filtered, crap bandwidth. Not a replacement. Caroline -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.gllug.org.uk/pipermail/gllug/attachments/20091211/44a7d110/attachment.htm From andy at strugglers.net Fri Dec 11 22:04:46 2009 From: andy at strugglers.net (Andy Smith) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 22:04:46 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] [OFFTOPIC] Re: Vista vs seven In-Reply-To: References: <4B184AF1.8030401@hinterlands.org> <20091207124346.GA7201@phaistos.bruce> <4B1D7565.1060708@hinterlands.org> <4B1D7867.4080207@hinterlands.org> <20091207234604.l7s21opjkcsg0wg8@chocabloc.net> <19230.4506.618788.176815@chiark.greenend.org.uk> <20091208154938.GA10348@phaistos.bruce> Message-ID: <20091211220446.GK15325@bitfolk.com> Hello Peter, On Tue, Dec 08, 2009 at 04:02:18PM +0000, Peter Childs wrote: > 2009/12/8 Bruce Richardson : > > Linux User Groups are no longer useful.  It's a mainstream technology > > now, so LUGs do not offer the special advantages (networking, > > hard-to-get technical advice and expertise) they once did.  Bitching is > > about all that's left. > > Not true. Agreed; there are still plenty of people who find it easier to discuss things either with people they know are geographically close, or in person at a meeting. > I think the issue with Gllug is that its too big and has a lack of > leadership (to organise meets etc), Are you volunteering? In communities like this, things tend to get achieved by people who just do them, not by people who bikeshed about them. If you organised a meeting I'm sure people would come, but it's no good just complaining that there is no organisation. > We also have a load of people who think they know everything and > will not accept the beginners and accept that we were all > beginners once. GLLUG is indeed one of the more flamey lists I'm on, but it also has some of the most useful threads. I have not seen anyone who fails to get help just because they're not already experts. I've seen plenty who refuse to accept community norms, and these often become the largest and most irrelevant threads. I read most of GLLUG with ctrl-r (mark thread read in mutt). > In short too many Indians and not enough Chiefs. Be the chief that you want to see, Ranting Bear. Cheers, Andy -- http://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting >> I have just recently purchased a Feathercraft Big Kahuna kayak > does it have a heater? Of course not. Everyone knows you can't have your kayak and heat it. -- James Fidell -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: Digital signature Url : http://lists.gllug.org.uk/pipermail/gllug/attachments/20091211/ed465459/attachment.pgp From andy at strugglers.net Sat Dec 12 00:32:19 2009 From: andy at strugglers.net (Andy Smith) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2009 00:32:19 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Battery-backed SAS controllers In-Reply-To: <20091211183408.GG15325@bitfolk.com> References: <20091211183408.GG15325@bitfolk.com> Message-ID: <20091212003219.GM15325@bitfolk.com> On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 06:34:08PM +0000, Andy Smith wrote: > Anyone know of a battery-backed SAS controller? That is, something > like a RAID controller that takes SAS disks but without any RAID > features, just a battery backed write cache and the disks exposed to > the OS. Based on some off-list chatter maybe I could do with elaborating. I can remove the need for hardware RAID cards in all respects except their battery-backed write cache. By using a hardware RAID card I risk the hardware failing and taking all data with it. Even holding spares of the card does not always protect against this. It would be desirable to remove this point of failure. The cheapest 3ware SAS card with a BBU seems to be about £300, and it seems a shame to spend that only to put it in JBOD mode (which may not even use the BBU). I can turn on the write caches in the disks themselves, but they aren't battery-backed, so a power cut or some forms of kernel panic may well lead to data loss. I'm surprised something like this does not exist. Alternatively, how well does XFS's barriers support work, and does it play nicely with LVM? Does TCQ remove some of the risk? Cheers, Andy -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: Digital signature Url : http://lists.gllug.org.uk/pipermail/gllug/attachments/20091212/90e41844/attachment.pgp From general_email at technicalbloke.com Sat Dec 12 07:41:18 2009 From: general_email at technicalbloke.com (general_email at technicalbloke.com) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2009 07:41:18 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Internet connection through mobile phone In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B23491E.5050401@technicalbloke.com> felix swart wrote: > Hi all, > > I have moved into a flat which is not connected to the local exchange and am > loathe to hand over roughly £120 to BT for the connection. Does anyone have > experience with mobile internet used for a home connection; no streaming or > downloading distro images, just general surfing. > Hi Felix, I have a T-mobile stick and it works OK for light surfing. The problem I have with it is it's very choosy about connecting to the 3G network & when it can't it drops back to 2G (gprs) which is very slow. Basically it doesn't much like walls and will only pickup 3G in my kitchen and garden. This makes no odds as I only have it as an emergency backup in case my landline broadband dies and occasional travel use. Given that you can get the sticks for £10 (they're on a half price offer at the moment) and you can get a months credit for £15 (currently discounted to £2 on offer!) I'd say try it and see how good the receptionis in your flat. If you can get 3G it may be all you ever need (it's definitely fast enough for web surfing), if not then you've got a handy backup/mobile connection for about 20 squids. One caveat though, I've only tried it on XP, not Linux so I can't tell you how hard/easy it is to get it working. The lass on their service desk said although they didn't support it per se she knew of people who were using them successfully. Apparently the first wave of them were distributed with linux netbooks a couple of years back by the carphone warehouse. Roger. From general_email at technicalbloke.com Sat Dec 12 08:31:47 2009 From: general_email at technicalbloke.com (general_email at technicalbloke.com) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2009 08:31:47 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Internet connection through mobile phone In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B2354F3.8030705@technicalbloke.com> JLMS wrote: > On Thu, Dec 10, 2009 at 4:09 PM, felix swart wrote: > >> Hi all, >> >> I have moved into a flat which is not connected to the local exchange and am >> loathe to hand over roughly £120 to BT for the connection. Does anyone have >> experience with mobile internet used for a home connection; no streaming or >> downloading distro images, just general surfing. >> >> Related to that: Has anyone played with the Nokia N900? Any comments on its >> suitability as a mobile internet modem? >> >> Cheers, >> Felix >> >> > > Get a package with Virgin Media if you have coverage. > > If you do but don't wish to use Virgin Media, call back BT and tell > them that Virgin Media are doing installation for free and that you > will sign with Virgin Media if BT does not give you a good discount > for the installation. They would be dumb to lose a client inste > > I used to have Virgin Media (NTL, whatever) cable connectivity and it > was superb. > > Sorry to say, but relying on mobile internet only is something you > wish only in your worst enemies, and even then it would be with a > heavy heart. > Funny that's what I'd say about Virgin Media these days!!! NTL & Telewest were great back in the day but ever since Virgin assimilated all the London cable companies their service seems to have gone down the toilet. Their helpdesk are often immoveable even in the face of hard evidence of failures on their part ( I speak to them on my customers behalf on a fairly regular basis ). Worse still is that if you get a cable connection with them, rather than ADSL, you are locked in, at least with a BT line you can switch broadband suppliers if you aren't satisified. Also there's the extremely blunt and harsh bandwidth throttling (don't go downloading ISO's in office hours or your connection will be throttled for the rest of the day!) and the recent announcement of the DPI traffic snooping project. They were dying to get into bed with Phorm and are reputed to be quite open to the idea of prioritising partners content (i.e. slowing non-partners content). Oh and Branson's a bit of a prick. OP, as I mentioned in an earlier post I don't think mobile broadband is all that bad if your needs are modest (I don't think LUG members generally have modest demands of their technology!) and it's certainly cheap to try so I'd encourage you to give it a go. £120 + £15 /month line rental = £300 for your first year of landline ownership and that's before your broadband bill! If you do go with fixed line broadband it's hard to recommend anyone as being very good, I see frequent problems with pretty much every provider. I would say definitely avoid BT, talktalk as they consistently under deliver. Bethere (my current provider) consistently provide the advertised bandwidth and don't engage in traffic shaping although I have heard they have recently signed deals to provide service on behalf of other providers which might dilute their network capacity a bit. I have found their helpdesk excellent, it seems to be staffed with eastern block hacker types who really know their stuff, don't patronise you like almost all the others and, most importantly, they pick up the phone within tens of seconds - not tens of minutes. Also worthy of mention on a customer service note are Waitrose. On a technical level they're just resellers but their call centers (free to call) are South African and their operators have very crisp clear English. Thick accents don't bother me but I know it seems to bother a lot of people I talk to. It's hard to find any objective data on the reliability of various broadband providers but I suspect they are all fairly equally flaky, they certainly seem to be. This would make sense as the vast majority of the electronics and cables involved in anyone's ADSL connection are BT/Openzones, not the broadband companies. With more objective data gathering in mind I recently wrote a basic reliability monitor in Python. I occasionally get a client who seems / claims to be experiencing above average dropouts so I figured this would be a good way to test. It periodically pings various public servers and logs the results. Turns out my connection isn't quite as rock solid as I had thought it was! Anyone fancy trying it out on their connection / helping me develop it? Roger. From general_email at technicalbloke.com Sat Dec 12 08:35:16 2009 From: general_email at technicalbloke.com (general_email at technicalbloke.com) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2009 08:35:16 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] [OFFTOPIC] Re: Vista vs seven In-Reply-To: <20091211220446.GK15325@bitfolk.com> References: <4B184AF1.8030401@hinterlands.org> <20091207124346.GA7201@phaistos.bruce> <4B1D7565.1060708@hinterlands.org> <4B1D7867.4080207@hinterlands.org> <20091207234604.l7s21opjkcsg0wg8@chocabloc.net> <19230.4506.618788.176815@chiark.greenend.org.uk> <20091208154938.GA10348@phaistos.bruce> <20091211220446.GK15325@bitfolk.com> Message-ID: <4B2355C4.7080006@technicalbloke.com> Andy Smith wrote: > Hello Peter, > > On Tue, Dec 08, 2009 at 04:02:18PM +0000, Peter Childs wrote: > >> 2009/12/8 Bruce Richardson : >> >> In short too many Indians and not enough Chiefs. >> > > Be the chief that you want to see, Ranting Bear. > > Cheers, > Andy > > "Ranting Bear", I LOL'd :) Roger. From jason at ukfsn.org Sat Dec 12 08:57:58 2009 From: jason at ukfsn.org (Jason Clifford) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2009 08:57:58 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Internet connection through mobile phone In-Reply-To: <4B2354F3.8030705@technicalbloke.com> References: <4B2354F3.8030705@technicalbloke.com> Message-ID: <1260608278.2040.21.camel@L1> On Sat, 2009-12-12 at 08:31 +0000, general_email at technicalbloke.com wrote: > OP, as I mentioned in an earlier post I don't think mobile broadband is > all that bad if your needs are modest (I don't think LUG members > generally have modest demands of their technology!) members have referred to serious problems with connections dropping, the speed being practically non-existent and other problems on mobile services. I've experienced all of these. These problems are not to do with excessive demands but rather the simple fact that mobile broadband services are just not fit for any kind of regular use - even just basic web browsing. > and it's certainly > cheap to try so I'd encourage you to give it a go. £120 + £15 /month > line rental = £300 for your first year of landline ownership and that's > before your broadband bill! Yes activation can be expensive but £15/month line rental is a fantasy. The usual price is less than £12/month. A decent broadband service on top of that will cost more. How much more will depend upon how good a service you want. > If you do go with fixed line broadband it's hard to recommend anyone as > being very good, I see frequent problems with pretty much every > provider. More often than not the problems are specific to customer's having unrealistic expectations (do read the "up to" as meaning just that!) or to customer wiring or equipment but it's certainly true that problems can occur. When problems do occur with a fixed line broadband service it's a lot easier to determine where the problem is than on a mobile service. > It's hard to find any objective data on the reliability of various > broadband providers but I suspect they are all fairly equally flaky, > they certainly seem to be. This would make sense as the vast majority of > the electronics and cables involved in anyone's ADSL connection are > BT/Openzones, not the broadband companies. And the vast majority of people simply don't have problems with the service. If they did ISPs would not be able to operate as the margins are so low. > With more objective data gathering in mind I recently wrote a basic > reliability monitor in Python. I occasionally get a client who seems / > claims to be experiencing above average dropouts so I figured this would > be a good way to test. It periodically pings various public servers and > logs the results. Turns out my connection isn't quite as rock solid as I > had thought it was! Anyone fancy trying it out on their connection / > helping me develop it? You're not doing a reliable test. Ping to remote sites cannot be relied upon to provide an accurate indication of how good or bad your connection is as ICMP is often blocked or marked for low priority in the event of any congestion anywhere on the network and you cannot know if that is being done or where it is being done when measuring connection to a remote site. To test a broadband connection you need to be using LCP to test between the end point and the ISP network. That's the only way to measure the broadband connection. To my knowledge only A&A do this routinely and it's something that only the ISP is in a good position to do. It's also a waste of resources in almost every case. Jason Clifford From hearnsj at googlemail.com Sat Dec 12 08:58:14 2009 From: hearnsj at googlemail.com (John Hearns) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2009 08:58:14 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Internet connection through mobile phone In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9f8092cc0912120058y1d051372ka1144a0f16770b0@mail.gmail.com> 2009/12/10 felix swart : > Hi all, > > I have moved into a flat which is not connected to the local exchange and am > loathe to hand over roughly £120 to BT for the connection. Get a 3 MiFi. I have one and it is the cat's whiskers. Works out of the box with Linux (as it would - it is a wireless access point). In London there is also a wireless ISP - can't remember the name, sorry. The project for a public mesh network died a death a long time ago. From rw at shadow.org.uk Sat Dec 12 09:29:25 2009 From: rw at shadow.org.uk (Rich Walker) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2009 09:29:25 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Battery-backed SAS controllers In-Reply-To: <20091211183408.GG15325@bitfolk.com> (Andy Smith's message of "Fri\, 11 Dec 2009 18\:34\:08 +0000") References: <20091211183408.GG15325@bitfolk.com> Message-ID: Andy Smith wrote: > Hello, > > Anyone know of a battery-backed SAS controller? That is, something > like a RAID controller that takes SAS disks but without any RAID > features, just a battery backed write cache and the disks exposed to > the OS. I have a battery-backed RAM PCI card sitting on a shelf at work. Bought off Ebay for a server that it doesn't fit. Email me on Monday and I'll dig out the details. cheers, Rich. > > Cheers, > Andy -- rich walker | Shadow Robot Company | rw at shadow.org.uk technical director 251 Liverpool Road | skype: rich_at_shadow need a Hand? London N1 1LX | +44 20 7700 2487 http://www.shadowrobot.com/hand/ From general_email at technicalbloke.com Sat Dec 12 10:22:45 2009 From: general_email at technicalbloke.com (general_email at technicalbloke.com) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2009 10:22:45 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Internet connection through mobile phone In-Reply-To: <1260608278.2040.21.camel@L1> References: <4B2354F3.8030705@technicalbloke.com> <1260608278.2040.21.camel@L1> Message-ID: <4B236EF5.8090102@technicalbloke.com> Jason Clifford wrote: > On Sat, 2009-12-12 at 08:31 +0000, general_email at technicalbloke.com > wrote: > >> OP, as I mentioned in an earlier post I don't think mobile broadband is >> all that bad if your needs are modest (I don't think LUG members >> generally have modest demands of their technology!) >> > > members have referred to serious problems with connections dropping, the > speed being practically non-existent and other problems on mobile > services. I've experienced all of these. These problems are not to do > with excessive demands but rather the simple fact that mobile broadband > services are just not fit for any kind of regular use - even just basic > web browsing. > > Well that's not my experience, other than low speed in some parts of my house it seems fine. I was doing 'basic web browsing' on it yesterday with no problems. Your 'simple fact' is a just a fairly blunt conjecture and I refer you to your argument below: "the vast majority of people simply don't have problems with the service. If they did ISPs would not be able to operate as the margins are so low.". Which is it? >> and it's certainly >> cheap to try so I'd encourage you to give it a go. £120 + £15 /month >> line rental = £300 for your first year of landline ownership and that's >> before your broadband bill! >> > > Yes activation can be expensive but £15/month line rental is a fantasy. > The usual price is less than £12/month. A decent broadband service on > top of that will cost more. How much more will depend upon how good a > service you want. > It's not a fantasy if you don't pay by direct debit and don't cancel paper bills. Not only that but it will be going up an extra 50p/month next year to subsidise rural connections. It makes little difference anyway, being more precise and using your figure gives £122.50 + 12*12 = £266.50 a year i.e. still an awful lot more expensive than 3G for moderate use and that's not including the cost of a broadband package! BTW, price and quality aren't directly correlated at all. The service I have now, the uncapped "Be Value" is only £13.50 a month and is by far the best broadband experience I've had in London. The BT connection I had to endure before cost twice as much and was utterly shit. > >> If you do go with fixed line broadband it's hard to recommend anyone as >> being very good, I see frequent problems with pretty much every >> provider. >> > > More often than not the problems are specific to customer's having > unrealistic expectations (do read the "up to" as meaning just that!) or > to customer wiring or equipment but it's certainly true that problems > can occur. When problems do occur with a fixed line broadband service > it's a lot easier to determine where the problem is than on a mobile > service. > That may be true but ease of fault finding is hardly worth over £250 for most domestic users. I have to say I consider this use of "up to" in marketing thoroughly dishonest anyway, I have come across providers advertising upto 20 Mb that can't consistently deliver one. I'd like to see them forced to advertise their average speed as monitored by an independent 3rd party, that would quickly bust the myth that paying extra for BT gets you fast reliable service. > >> It's hard to find any objective data on the reliability of various >> broadband providers but I suspect they are all fairly equally flaky, >> they certainly seem to be. This would make sense as the vast majority of >> the electronics and cables involved in anyone's ADSL connection are >> BT/Openzones, not the broadband companies. >> > > And the vast majority of people simply don't have problems with the > service. If they did ISPs would not be able to operate as the margins > are so low. > > Did I say that they did!? I'm a repair man so I see a lot of setups that are struggling, not so many that are working fine. What I am saying is that these problems seem to be fairly evenly spread across service providers. I have come across problems on everybody's networks and no one provider stands out as being particularly reliable or unreliable. This is one of the reasons I object to BT's repeated use of the words "Fast and Reliable" in their advertising, I have experienced a boatload of slow flaky BT connections and yes, I have tried swapping out the routers and connecting them directly to the master sockets. Even factoring in their ubiquity BT provide a pretty dismal service IMHO and they have some remarkable chutzpah to market it as "Fast and Reliable" On a side note those TV adverts of theirs make me want to bludgeon my telly and everything within a 50 yard radius to a Planckian thickness. >> With more objective data gathering in mind I recently wrote a basic >> reliability monitor in Python. I occasionally get a client who seems / >> claims to be experiencing above average dropouts so I figured this would >> be a good way to test. It periodically pings various public servers and >> logs the results. Turns out my connection isn't quite as rock solid as I >> had thought it was! Anyone fancy trying it out on their connection / >> helping me develop it? >> > > You're not doing a reliable test. Ping to remote sites cannot be relied > upon to provide an accurate indication of how good or bad your > connection is as ICMP is often blocked or marked for low priority in the > event of any congestion anywhere on the network and you cannot know if > that is being done or where it is being done when measuring connection > to a remote site. > Actually, although it's still very early days, it seems good enough to indicate bad service. I have profiled the worlds top 25000 websites for over a week and weeded out any that do not respond very promptly to ICMP. Those that made it through I then allow a generous time out. Naturally a failure is only considered an outage once a threshold of consecutive failures has been exceeded and any servers that begin to fail a disproportionate amount of time will be removed form the list. I have tested on several Windows and Linux computers and ICMP failures correspond very well with failures of web service, in future versions I plan to add an option to test http periodically too. > To test a broadband connection you need to be using LCP to test between > the end point and the ISP network. That's the only way to measure the > broadband connection. Balls. Just last week it identified I was getting periodic spotty DNS service, I contacted my ISP and they identified out of date DNS settings on my router (supposedly managed and updated by them). They corrected these by hand and I have had considerably better service ever since. I see no reason why, given a known good computer and router the above method could not generate quite useful results in most domestic/SoHo environments. > It's also > a waste of resources in almost every case. > <3MB memory use, unmeasurable processor use and with 350 bytes * every 5 seconds = 4.3Mb per day, spread across > 20,000 servers its hardly going to cause the internet to grind to a halt is it? Roger. From jason at ukfsn.org Sat Dec 12 10:58:16 2009 From: jason at ukfsn.org (Jason Clifford) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2009 10:58:16 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Internet connection through mobile phone In-Reply-To: <4B236EF5.8090102@technicalbloke.com> References: <4B2354F3.8030705@technicalbloke.com> <1260608278.2040.21.camel@L1> <4B236EF5.8090102@technicalbloke.com> Message-ID: <1260615496.2040.54.camel@L1> On Sat, 2009-12-12 at 10:22 +0000, general_email at technicalbloke.com wrote: > Well that's not my experience, other than low speed in some parts of my > house it seems fine. yet it is my experience as I clearly stated and at least one other person has posted the same experience to the list. Even when it does work mobile broadband is no better a replacement for fixed line broadband in many cases than dialup access is. > Your 'simple fact' is a just a fairly blunt conjecture > and I refer you to your argument below: "the vast majority of people > simply don't have problems with the service. If they did ISPs would not > be able to operate as the margins are so low.". Which is it? I run an ISP. I have daily contact with others who also do the same. I know for a fact that the ratio of customer faults to connections is very low on fixed line broadband services and I know the margins we operate to. My comment was clear in that it referred to fixed line services. There was no conflict between the 2 statements I made. > It's not a fantasy if you don't pay by direct debit and don't cancel > paper bills. Not only that but it will be going up an extra 50p/month > next year to subsidise rural connections. It makes little difference > anyway, being more precise and using your figure gives £122.50 + 12*12 = > £266.50 a year i.e. still an awful lot more expensive than 3G for > moderate use and that's not including the cost of a broadband package! Define "moderate use" please as without doing so your statement is meaningless. I'd say that for most people mobile services are only suitable for very light use. > BTW, price and quality aren't directly correlated at all. The service I > have now, the uncapped "Be Value" is only £13.50 a month and is by far > the best broadband experience I've had in London. The BT connection I > had to endure before cost twice as much and was utterly shit. Comparing Be's LLU based service to BT service will always favour Be as they run a good network while BT are generally crap at every service they supply. Be's service is very good. We offer a variant of it for some of our business customers as well as C&W LLU based service. > That may be true but ease of fault finding is hardly worth over £250 for > most domestic users. If that were the only benefit you might be right but it isn't and I suspect you know full well it isn't. > I have to say I consider this use of "up to" in marketing thoroughly > dishonest anyway, I have come across providers advertising upto > 20Mb that can't consistently deliver one. I'd like to see them forced > to advertise their average speed as monitored by an > independent 3rd party, that would quickly bust the myth that paying > extra for BT gets you fast reliable service. Another fantasy. We're able to offer services that are not "up to" on fixed line broadband services. They are 512k, 1Mb and 2Mb fixed rate services. Most customers don't want them as "up to" delivers better service. The reason it's marketed as "up to" is because that's the honest truth. Those who want ISPs to market rate adaptive services on some other basis are simply ignoring the fact that speeds are dependant upon factors beyond the ISP's ability to control or accurately measure before any service exists on the line (and even when it does). ISPs are no more able to change the laws of physics to facilitate such a fantasy than anyone else can. Average speed is another fantasy. It's meaningless as it often has nothing to do with the broadband service itself. Any speed measurement that moves beyond the connection from the customer to the ISP is corrupted by including measurements of external networks beyond the control of the ISP. > Did I say that they did!? I'm a repair man so I see a lot of setups that > are struggling, not so many that are working fine. So? That just means your experience is limited to poor instances by definition. It means your perspective is skewed accordingly. > What I am saying is > that these problems seem to be fairly evenly spread across service > providers. I have come across problems on everybody's networks and no > one provider stands out as being particularly reliable or unreliable. Because by definition you only ever see the services when there are problems. > This is one of the reasons I object to BT's repeated use of the words > "Fast and Reliable" in their advertising, I have experienced a boatload > of slow flaky BT connections and yes, I have tried swapping out the > routers and connecting them directly to the master sockets. Even > factoring in their ubiquity BT provide a pretty dismal service IMHO and > they have some remarkable chutzpah to market it as "Fast and Reliable" That's an issue with BT rather than with fixed line broadband service. BT are one of the poorest quality suppliers in the market. I'd be inclined to agree with anyone arguing that BT's advertising is dishonest on the basis that their network management ensures that customers wont get any real benefit from the higher speeds available from ADSL 2+ services. > > You're not doing a reliable test. Ping to remote sites cannot be relied > > upon to provide an accurate indication of how good or bad your > > connection is as ICMP is often blocked or marked for low priority in the > > event of any congestion anywhere on the network and you cannot know if > > that is being done or where it is being done when measuring connection > > to a remote site. > > Actually, although it's still very early days, it seems good enough to > indicate bad service. I have profiled the worlds top 25000 websites for > over a week and weeded out any that do not respond very promptly to > ICMP. That doesn't address route management on ISP networks and intervening networks. It doesn't address the fact that network management policies are entirely beyond your control and you wont ever know when or how they change. > > To test a broadband connection you need to be using LCP to test between > > the end point and the ISP network. That's the only way to measure the > > broadband connection. > > Balls. Just last week it identified I was getting periodic spotty DNS > service, I contacted my ISP and they identified out of date DNS settings > on my router (supposedly managed and updated by them). A DNS fail is not a broadband service fail. It's a fail at a protocol operating at a higher level. > They corrected these by hand and I have had considerably better service > ever since. I see no reason why, given a known good computer and router > the above method could not generate quite useful results in most > domestic/SoHo environments. Yes it probably could to some degree assuming that all those variables beyond your ability to measure accurately or control remain fairly static. My point is that there are immensely better ways to measure the quality of an internet connection. > > It's also a waste of resources in almost every case > <3MB memory use, unmeasurable processor use and with 350 bytes * every 5 > seconds = 4.3Mb per day, spread across > 20,000 servers its hardly going > to cause the internet to grind to a halt is it? No, your math's wrong. That's 5.7678 MB per day. It's over 175MB per month. A customer with a light usage broadband package may well find that his is 17.5% of their monthly usage allowance. That's a waste of resources. The issue isn't whether it's going to cause problems for "the internet" or uses computing resources but rather it consumes the far more scarce and costly resource, which is bandwidth, and thus causes problems for the specific people whose connections you run this on. From general_email at technicalbloke.com Sat Dec 12 18:54:02 2009 From: general_email at technicalbloke.com (general_email at technicalbloke.com) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2009 18:54:02 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Internet connection through mobile phone In-Reply-To: <1260615496.2040.54.camel@L1> References: <4B2354F3.8030705@technicalbloke.com> <1260608278.2040.21.camel@L1> <4B236EF5.8090102@technicalbloke.com> <1260615496.2040.54.camel@L1> Message-ID: <4B23E6CA.9010906@technicalbloke.com> Jason Clifford wrote: > On Sat, 2009-12-12 at 10:22 +0000, general_email at technicalbloke.com > wrote: > >> Well that's not my experience, other than low speed in some parts of my >> house it seems fine. >> > > yet it is my experience as I clearly stated and at least one other > person has posted the same experience to the list. > > Even when it does work mobile broadband is no better a replacement for > fixed line broadband in many cases than dialup access is. > > Well Jason the op said he wanted something fairly cheap for a bit of web surfing, specifically not streaming (so dropouts aren't a huge issue to him) and not downloading ISO's (so bandwidth isn't top priority either). Given his requirements, 3G may actually be a 'better' solution than 'fixed line broadband'. I wouldn't suggest it is an appropriate 'replacement' for most use cases but he was quite clear about what he wants and 3G would seem to fit that. >> Your 'simple fact' is a just a fairly blunt conjecture >> and I refer you to your argument below: "the vast majority of people >> simply don't have problems with the service. If they did ISPs would not >> be able to operate as the margins are so low.". Which is it? >> > > I run an ISP. I have daily contact with others who also do the same. I > know for a fact that the ratio of customer faults to connections is very > low on fixed line broadband services and I know the margins we operate > to. My comment was clear in that it referred to fixed line services. > There was no conflict between the 2 statements I made. > > Your implication is that ISPs couldn't survive if they didn't provide a usefully reliable service. If this line of argument is sound why is it only applicable to fixed line services? 3G adoption is growing at a pretty healthy rate, ~8% in Europe last year, ~11% Stateside, either 3G is as rubbish as you say and the providers are growing despite not offering a usefully reliable service, or they are offering a usefully reliable service in contrast to your assertion that "mobile broadband services are just not fit for any kind of regular use". That looks like a contradiction to me. >> It's not a fantasy if you don't pay by direct debit and don't cancel >> paper bills. Not only that but it will be going up an extra 50p/month >> next year to subsidise rural connections. It makes little difference >> anyway, being more precise and using your figure gives £122.50 + 12*12 = >> £266.50 a year i.e. still an awful lot more expensive than 3G for >> moderate use and that's not including the cost of a broadband package! >> > > Define "moderate use" please as without doing so your statement is > meaningless. I'd say that for most people mobile services are only > suitable for very light use. > > Moderate, in moderation, middle of the road, average, median, somewhere in the middle, not light but far from heavy, restrained by an average persons standards and expectations. The crowd on here would almost all be heavy users, say using the internet every day for several hours and downloading big files like ISOs on a semi regular basis. My mum and dad would be light users, under 2 hours per week sometimes less, popping on from time to time to check their email or book some tickets or order something and never downloading any files explicitly. A moderate user would be somewhere in between, say an hour a day. Catching up on facebook, doing a bit of online shopping, watching the odd youtube video, maybe downloading an song or two off iTunes. You can do that on 3G, if you can get a good signal where you are you can get "up to" 5Mb, even a quarter of that is good enough for moderate use. >> BTW, price and quality aren't directly correlated at all. The service I >> have now, the uncapped "Be Value" is only £13.50 a month and is by far >> the best broadband experience I've had in London. The BT connection I >> had to endure before cost twice as much and was utterly shit. >> > > Comparing Be's LLU based service to BT service will always favour Be as > they run a good network while BT are generally crap at every service > they supply. > I'm glad we agree on something then! >> That may be true but ease of fault finding is hardly worth over £250 for >> most domestic users. >> > > If that were the only benefit you might be right but it isn't and I > suspect you know full well it isn't. > No but the OP isn't asking what benefits they might derive from spending more and getting fixed line service, they are asking what drawbacks they might experience by spending less and getting a 3G mobile service. > >> I have to say I consider this use of "up to" in marketing thoroughly >> dishonest anyway, I have come across providers advertising upto >> 20Mb that can't consistently deliver one. I'd like to see them forced >> to advertise their average speed as monitored by an >> independent 3rd party, that would quickly bust the myth that paying >> extra for BT gets you fast reliable service. >> > > Another fantasy. We're able to offer services that are not "up to" on > fixed line broadband services. They are 512k, 1Mb and 2Mb fixed rate > services. Most customers don't want them as "up to" delivers better > service. > Advertising "up to" 20Meg! and delivering a fraction of that most of the day is dishonest in my book. My cable provider in NY did this, they advertised "up to" 10Meg but most of the day it was averaging around one and was jittery to the point of making even low res youtube clips unwatchable, it was little better than dialup most of the time. As they were the only cable provider in town I suffered them for several months and then one day I noticed that between 5 and 5:30 am the speed suddenly shot up to something in the ballpark of 10Mb. It turns out it did that every night! I have always wondered if that was their get out of jail free card so if they were ever sued for their lousy performance (and believe me they made BT look like the Super JANET by comparison!) they could point to an example of speeds "up to" 10 Meg. > The reason it's marketed as "up to" is because that's the honest truth. > Those who want ISPs to market rate adaptive services on some other basis > are simply ignoring the fact that speeds are dependant upon factors > beyond the ISP's ability to control or accurately measure before any > service exists on the line (and even when it does). ISPs are no more > able to change the laws of physics to facilitate such a fantasy than > anyone else can. > > I understand, but this is hardly made clear in the marketing is it? An "honest" policy would mention a "down to" speed as well, a minimum you should expect, and you should be free to walk from your contract if your ISP cannot supply that. I mean what's wrong with the principle of paying for what you get eh? If my house can only get 3Mb then fair enough but if the package I signed up for was advertised as "blazing fast speeds upto 20Mb!" then, small print aside, if they didn't make it very clear my area will not get anywhere near that speed I think that its mis-selling. > Average speed is another fantasy. It's meaningless as it often has > nothing to do with the broadband service itself. Any speed measurement > that moves beyond the connection from the customer to the ISP is > corrupted by including measurements of external networks beyond the > control of the ISP. > That's buck passing pure and simple. For the most part your broadband connection is running over someone else's copper or fibre but those someone else's are your agents, you pay them for the service, you should know what they can and can't deliver and you should not over promise. Not all providers over promise but many of them do and that is not cool. Be manage it, they say "up to 8Meg" and I get 8 meg, all day every day, 8Meg. I'd be cool with a bit less than 8Meg TBH, I'd still be pleased if I got 6, and I could live with it if I got a reliable 4 but an awful lot of consumers don't even get half of their packages max rated speed on a regular basis and that's bollocks. It's not good enough to go selling packages based on speed and then claim "well that's beyond our control" if you can't deliver something approaching that speed consistently. > >> Did I say that they did!? I'm a repair man so I see a lot of setups that >> are struggling, not so many that are working fine. >> > > So? That just means your experience is limited to poor instances by > definition. It means your perspective is skewed accordingly. > Er, yes, that's exactly what I am saying, I never claimed otherwise. I see a lot of "poor instances" however my perspective isn't skewed as... > >> What I am saying is >> that these problems seem to be fairly evenly spread across service >> providers. I have come across problems on everybody's networks and no >> one provider stands out as being particularly reliable or unreliable. >> > > Because by definition you only ever see the services when there are > problems. > ...I'm only talking about unreliable services, you see? I don't see what you're trying to get at here, are you just trying to be contrary for the kicks? > >> This is one of the reasons I object to BT's repeated use of the words >> "Fast and Reliable" in their advertising, I have experienced a boatload >> of slow flaky BT connections and yes, I have tried swapping out the >> routers and connecting them directly to the master sockets. Even >> factoring in their ubiquity BT provide a pretty dismal service IMHO and >> they have some remarkable chutzpah to market it as "Fast and Reliable" >> > > That's an issue with BT rather than with fixed line broadband service. > BT are one of the poorest quality suppliers in the market. I'd be > inclined to agree with anyone arguing that BT's advertising is dishonest > on the basis that their network management ensures that customers wont > get any real benefit from the higher speeds available from ADSL 2+ > services. > > Again with the thinking I'm on a mission to disrespect and despoil the reputation of fixed line broadband services; I have no problem with fixed line broadband, as a heavy user I personally wouldn't use anything else. All I am saying is that 3G may be adequate for some people, that's not an attack on any other types of connectivity. Glad we're agreed BT are a steaming pile though :) >> Actually, although it's still very early days, it seems good enough to >> indicate bad service. I have profiled the worlds top 25000 websites for >> over a week and weeded out any that do not respond very promptly to >> ICMP. >> > > That doesn't address route management on ISP networks and intervening > networks. It doesn't address the fact that network management policies > are entirely beyond your control and you wont ever know when or how they > change. > You're absolutely right and you know what? that doesn't matter one jot in my context. What matters is if people can get on the web or not. Route management doesn't come in to it... I don't care when or how anything to do with routing changes and neither do my customers. If one of the servers I am pinging starts failing on a regular basis I will see this in the logs and disregard those results, no biggie. What my customers care about is that sometimes they can get on Yahoo and sometimes they can't, what I care about is ruling out their computer, router and cabling and if the problem persists after that then quantifying how often these failures occur and whether they fail at the DNS stage or later. The subtleties aren't so important to me as I can't do much about them, I am solely interested in logging the times when their connection can't carry out DNS+ICMP+HTTP requests so I know A) if my client is exaggerating and B) if the connection looks flaky enough to take up the matter with their ISP. > >>> To test a broadband connection you need to be using LCP to test between >>> the end point and the ISP network. That's the only way to measure the >>> broadband connection. >>> >> Balls. Just last week it identified I was getting periodic spotty DNS >> service, I contacted my ISP and they identified out of date DNS settings >> on my router (supposedly managed and updated by them). >> > > A DNS fail is not a broadband service fail. It's a fail at a protocol > operating at a higher level. > > You're splitting hairs now, it's an ISP problem and the ISP provides my broadband service. I don't care if the errors are at the ATM level or the TCP/IP level, all of that is my ISPs responsibility. I think you'll find that most people's understanding of the term "broadband service" include DNS resolution and indeed anything else the ISP usually does pursuant to providing them with internet connectivity. >> They corrected these by hand and I have had considerably better service >> ever since. I see no reason why, given a known good computer and router >> the above method could not generate quite useful results in most >> domestic/SoHo environments. >> > > Yes it probably could to some degree assuming that all those variables > beyond your ability to measure accurately or control remain fairly > static. My point is that there are immensely better ways to measure the > quality of an internet connection. > > Well either there are or there aren't. In your last post you said there was precisely one correct way to measure connectivity and the ISP was the only entity well placed to do it. Now you're talking in the plural! It should be clear by now what I am trying to achieve and you know that implementing monitoring at the ISP level isn't an option for me or my clients as half the point is ascertaining if the ISP needs to be contacted and gathering some objective facts to take to them. IF what you say is right how about you help out, make with the info and explain these 'immensely better' techniques so that I may improve my tool? >>> It's also a waste of resources in almost every case >>> > > >> <3MB memory use, unmeasurable processor use and with 350 bytes * every 5 >> seconds = 4.3Mb per day, spread across > 20,000 servers its hardly going >> to cause the internet to grind to a halt is it? >> > > No, your math's wrong. That's 5.7678 MB per day. It's over 175MB per > month. A customer with a light usage broadband package may well find > that his is 17.5% of their monthly usage allowance. That's a waste of > resources. > > Touche, you're right about the maths, I have to admit it would actually generate a a whopping 6 Meg of traffic per day of testing, about he size of a long MP3 or a short porn clip. I can't think why one would need to run this app for any more than a week so Mr Worstcase there might burn upto 5% of his monthly bandwidth allowance. Given that he would only be running it when he is experiencing connectivity problems and that it might help quantify his problems and diagnose a solution he might consider that bandwidth well spent. > The issue isn't whether it's going to cause problems for "the internet" > or uses computing resources but rather it consumes the far more scarce > and costly resource, which is bandwidth, and thus causes problems for > the specific people whose connections you run this on. > > As I said, if they're running it they already have problems. You're being melodramatic to suggest bandwidth is so scarce and costly that a measly 6Meg a day might cause anyone any problems, this isn't 1999 and we're not all on dialup still. I can download 6 meg in under 10 seconds on my "value" broadband connection. It wouldn't take that much longer on my 3G connection, assuming I were in the kitchen ;) Roger. From cehunter at gb-x.org Sat Dec 12 22:09:59 2009 From: cehunter at gb-x.org (Christopher Hunter) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2009 22:09:59 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Internet connection through mobile phone In-Reply-To: <4B23E6CA.9010906@technicalbloke.com> References: <4B2354F3.8030705@technicalbloke.com> <1260608278.2040.21.camel@L1> <4B236EF5.8090102@technicalbloke.com> <1260615496.2040.54.camel@L1> <4B23E6CA.9010906@technicalbloke.com> Message-ID: <1260655799.10086.17.camel@localhost> On Sat, 2009-12-12 at 18:54 +0000, general_email at technicalbloke.com wrote: > Well Jason the op said he wanted something fairly cheap for a bit of web > surfing, specifically not streaming (so dropouts aren't a huge issue to > him) and not downloading ISO's (so bandwidth isn't top priority either). > Given his requirements, 3G may actually be a 'better' solution than > 'fixed line broadband'. I wouldn't suggest it is an appropriate > 'replacement' for most use cases but he was quite clear about what he > wants and 3G would seem to fit that. No!!! 3G is largely unavailable (in 80% of the country, it's a figment of the "service" provider's imagination). Where it does actually exist, it's flaky as hell - it's not reliable enough for even the most casual use. It's also seriously expensive, when you compare data rates and download allowances with other media. Don't go there - it'll just lead to tears! > Advertising "up to" 20Meg! and delivering a fraction of that most of the > day is dishonest in my book. It's fraudulent. Virgin-on-the-ridiculous do that - they advertise "up to 40 Mb" and a "fibre network", both of which are almost entirely untrue. Their top-speed service (if you're VERY lucky) is 20 Mb bursts with an average of around 4 Mb. They have virtually no actual fibre on their network at all - most of it is rotting coax and rented capacity from the ever-failing BT. They have no FTTH whatsoever, and no plans for it as "it's too expensive". Under their bizarre and draconian usage rules, a top-rate Virgin customer downloading a Linux ISO would have his connection capped at 10% of his normal rate for almost 24 hours, which renders their "unlimited" boast entirely specious too. Many other ISPs are much the same - advertising services that they simply can never supply, and often charging for them. That's fraud. I have a lawyer examining a number of ISP contracts at the moment (VM, BT, talk,talk, and a couple of others), to locate the errors, obfuscations, and downright lies. It's time that some of these thieves were taken on! C. From zvi.grauer at gmail.com Sat Dec 12 23:23:50 2009 From: zvi.grauer at gmail.com (Zvi Grauer) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2009 23:23:50 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] [Lonix] Phone Apps Question Message-ID: <1260660221203890@lonix.org.uk>Mime-Version: 1.0 Happy Holidays, everyone! I have several questions regarding apps for Android, iPhone and maybe other OS's. Let me start with some background - I have an interest in GPS and sharing GPS data. I have a hobby web site, www.words2u.net, which could explain what this is about. At any rate, I am interesting in developing a GPS app to facilitate GPS data exchange from GPS enabled 'smart phones'. Hopefully, the app can be sold to cover the development costs and support storing the data. I am not a developer, but have experience in software testing and documenting. I like Android because it is open source and does not place requirements on the developers. I like the iPhone because it has the most successful app store, and while it is walled source, and has all kinds of hoops to jump through, it is probably the best shot at recovering the costs. I am not familiar with other mobile OS's, but I do know that Nokia has several GPS phones (N95 and others), as does RIM (Blackberry models) Now to the questions: 1. What is your advice regarding developing such an app - what are the minimal legal requirements to assure the team is fairly and evenly compensated if there is any income from the app? I am familiar with the extremes of the spectrum (working for a software company with NDA's, code encryption, etc. and non profit, open source idea code sharing in PHP, Python and Javascripts freely with others, where no money was to be made), but not the middle ground. 2. Would there be anyone on this list who has the experience, time and inclination to help/join me in such an endeavor? Feel free to answer either on or off the list. Z. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.gllug.org.uk/pipermail/gllug/attachments/20091212/19e73332/attachment.htm From lesleyb at herlug.org.uk Sun Dec 13 11:41:03 2009 From: lesleyb at herlug.org.uk ('LesleyB ') Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2009 11:41:03 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] HackerSpace In-Reply-To: References: <20091209204049.GI12648@pgcroft.net> Message-ID: <20091213114103.GJ12648@pgcroft.net> On Wed, Dec 09, 2009 at 11:39:59PM +0100, Chris Bell wrote: > On Wed 09 Dec, Lesley wrote: > > > > > It depends what you envisage this space doing? > > > > Regards > > > > Lesley > > The meeting was running late, but there was just time for questions > before the lights started going out. The remaining time was taken by three > young lads and two neighbourhood policewomen asking for more youth > facilities. > I spoke to the Park Royal Partnership representative afterwards and > requested a combination of education opportunities, a community computer > club, and hacker space. I explained that I wanted to provide community > facilities for anyone to learn how to install, configure, and administer > anything from a single computer to a network suitable for a small business, > plus space for further development, pointing out that this could be > beneficial for both the community and local businesses that might need > expertise in the future. I worked with James Wallbank and his team at Access Space in Sheffield for a short while. Jame's model involved recycling thrown away computers often receiving donations from business updating their sometimes very antiquated stock. There are a bunch of regulations about recycling electronic equipment and I don't think the recycling exercise itself was profitable but sometimes useful kit turned up - like an A3 scanner. Access Space provided an arts/open source bridge for many arts/technology projects as well as a free community centre for artists needing to use a networked computer for internet access in a supportive environment. I ran a Level 1 course there for a short while, for women only, where we were able to demistify the whole technology thing by showing them the insides of a computer, doing things like taking a hard disk drive apart to show the platters and materials used and then building one and installing Mandriva on it. The course was funded by a women only organisation and one of the pre-requisites was that it be women only. So we simply closed the Space to public access for the course dates. The space itself was used by various folk, from the unemployed needing a place to be and people to communicate with, to artists trying to get sound and video working in particular ways using the Mandriva disribution, to people teaching themselves Blender for their own projects. There was a particular team of youngsters that came in to play a particular on-line game. The attitude taken was that at least they were off the streets and in an environment where they could and might pick up on other opportunities. > I was told that the representative was not personally involved in that > part of the organisation, but he had already been convinced about Open > Source by his son who is attending Imperial College, and he would pass on > the requests. The response appears to be encouraging. There is EU and > Government funding available to the Park Royal Partnership, and they can > request help from a very large number of local businesses. > Funding can come from various sources for various everchanging projects. I don't know the whole funding base of Access Space but it supported full time work for about five people and occasional work for myself and a number of others. Not at great salary levels but reasonable enough. I would love to do similar down here and I think you have a huge base at Park Royal. I also think London is big enough to support the East and West having their own hackspaces. There is also no reason why these hackspaces can't all get along at some level and learn from each other's different models. I encourage you to stay in contact with the council team and dig for more information, space and funding. Regards Lesley From general_email at technicalbloke.com Sun Dec 13 12:26:47 2009 From: general_email at technicalbloke.com (general_email at technicalbloke.com) Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2009 12:26:47 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Internet connection through mobile phone In-Reply-To: <1260655799.10086.17.camel@localhost> References: <4B2354F3.8030705@technicalbloke.com> <1260608278.2040.21.camel@L1> <4B236EF5.8090102@technicalbloke.com> <1260615496.2040.54.camel@L1> <4B23E6CA.9010906@technicalbloke.com> <1260655799.10086.17.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <4B24DD87.5000509@technicalbloke.com> Christopher Hunter wrote: > On Sat, 2009-12-12 at 18:54 +0000, general_email at technicalbloke.com > wrote: > > >> Well Jason the op said he wanted something fairly cheap for a bit of web >> surfing, specifically not streaming (so dropouts aren't a huge issue to >> him) and not downloading ISO's (so bandwidth isn't top priority either). >> Given his requirements, 3G may actually be a 'better' solution than >> 'fixed line broadband'. I wouldn't suggest it is an appropriate >> 'replacement' for most use cases but he was quite clear about what he >> wants and 3G would seem to fit that. >> > > No!!! 3G is largely unavailable (in 80% of the country, it's a figment > of the "service" provider's imagination). Where it does actually exist, > it's flaky as hell - it's not reliable enough for even the most casual > use. It's also seriously expensive, when you compare data rates and > download allowances with other media. Don't go there - it'll just lead > to tears! > > Yes coverage IS patchy on a national level but I'm guessing OP lives in London where you've got a better shot than most places, see this ofcom map... http://www.ofcom.org.uk/radiocomms/ifi/licensing/classes/broadband/cellular/3g/maps/3gmaps/coverage_maps.pdf My experience is that flakiness is more to do with the building you are in than where in London you live. Anyway if you only have modest needs it IS a cheaper option. How recently have you checked the data tariffs anyway? They're not nearly as harsh as they were even 12 months ago. If your needs are such that you can stay within their download allowances and you don't do anything else that triggers higher charges like roaming outside the mainland then it's not that bad. What's more, you can use PAYG so no need for a contract and the setup costs are tiny in comparison so it's not even risky or expensive to try. ADSL... Line installation £122 Line rental ~£13/mn ASDL contract ~£13/mn (low use tarriff) 3G Dongle £20 PAYG £15/mn Year one cost ADSL: £434 3G: £200 Year two cost ADSL: £312 3G: £180 Roger. From robert at mckay.com Sun Dec 13 17:21:05 2009 From: robert at mckay.com (Robert McKay) Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2009 17:21:05 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Internet connection through mobile phone In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 10, 2009 at 4:09 PM, felix swart wrote: > Hi all, > > I have moved into a flat which is not connected to the local exchange and > am loathe to hand over roughly £120 to BT for the connection. Does anyone > have experience with mobile internet used for a home connection; no > streaming or downloading distro images, just general surfing. > I'm basically in exactly the same situation - moved into a flat with no BT landline and balked at the install fee. I am currently using a T-Mobile 3g broadband stick on PAYG £15 for 30 days of internet access. No contract. This gives you 5GB of download per 30 days.. after you use that up, they restrict your access so that you can only make http requests for non-media files (eg: .flv, .mp3 etc requests will not be permitted; yes it actually looks at the filename of the GET request). Non HTTP protocols are also banned after 5GB. Low throughput udp seems to be tolerated but destinations become banned for a few seconds if the throughput exceeds some threshold. Even with the first 5GB of transfer all your http requests are degraded by a transparent proxy server which degrades the images and inserts javascript into your web pages.. All this is extremely annoying, so basically I've setup openvpn, and using it's tcp tunneling mechanism have rigged it up to go through proxy2ssh to my bytemark vm which has an extra IP - so now I have a proper static IP on the internet backhauled over http so it continues to work even after the 5GB has been depleted. It's all a bit inconvenient and does add a bit of latency (ping/mtr cows.mckay.com to see) which makes it unsuitable for online gaming however I'm still using it (it's been over 3 months now I think) and will probably continue to do so through sheer stubbornness. I'm currently over my 5GB limit for this month, but I can still stream youtube videos just fine.. although I'm probably in violation of whatever terms and conditions they have I don't have a contract with them so I'm not particularly concerned. Three mobile has a 15GB for £15/mo on an 18mo contract.. I'm somewhat tempted to get that as it might be almost enough and it would allow for udp tunneling instead of tcp which would probably be better. Three also gives you a real public IP (dynamically assigned) and doesn't mess around with compressing your images so I might even be tempted to do without tunneling which would probably be even better. On the other hand, the T-Mobile PAYG "unlimited" with restrictions (http only after 5GB) does give you unlimited access (albeit in an inconvenient way) without a contract. Another option might be the O2 iphone sims which offer unlimited access for a year. You can buy these on ebay and reports are that they will work just fine in an unlocked or o2 broadband dongle, but o2 may be banning them... for example: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/O2-iPhone-3G-Pay-Go-Sim-Card-FREE-INTERNET-AND-WIFI_W0QQitemZ170410052174QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Mobile_Home_Phones_Sim_Cards_CV?hash=item27ad3b0a4e > Related to that: Has anyone played with the Nokia N900? Any comments on its > suitability as a mobile internet modem? > Can't say that I have.. I'm using my broadband dongle in a Dovado UMR which is a small router with a usb socket for plugging in broadband dongles. It gives you ethernet and wifi presentation which is sortof nice although Linux seems to have good support for most usb broadband dongles (you will likely need to mess around with the usb_modeswitch utility to get it into 'modem' mode instead of micro-sd card reader mode, if it has a build in card reader which many of them now do). Most phones will work fine as modems over bluetooth but the usb broadband dongles are so cheap I would probably still recommend just getting one if you are planning to use it as a permanent solution. One other option I'm considering is getting some kind of parabolic dish wifi antenna and trying to hook into thecloud or the BTFON/BTOpenzone hotspot at starbucks (this actually just about works without a special antenna but it does drop out and there aren't currently any attractive price-plans for permanent connections to openzone APs). Rob. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.gllug.org.uk/pipermail/gllug/attachments/20091213/d58844aa/attachment.htm From andy at strugglers.net Sun Dec 13 17:51:15 2009 From: andy at strugglers.net (Andy Smith) Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2009 17:51:15 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Internet connection through mobile phone In-Reply-To: <1260655799.10086.17.camel@localhost> References: <4B2354F3.8030705@technicalbloke.com> <1260608278.2040.21.camel@L1> <4B236EF5.8090102@technicalbloke.com> <1260615496.2040.54.camel@L1> <4B23E6CA.9010906@technicalbloke.com> <1260655799.10086.17.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <20091213175115.GT15325@bitfolk.com> Hi Christopher, On Sat, Dec 12, 2009 at 10:09:59PM +0000, Christopher Hunter wrote: > No!!! 3G is largely unavailable (in 80% of the country, it's a figment > of the "service" provider's imagination). Where it does actually exist, > it's flaky as hell - it's not reliable enough for even the most casual > use. I can only say that my experience is very different. I have a "3" broadband dongle for Internet access whilst out and about, and in most locations it works absolutely fine. So far these locations have included out and about in London, at home in TW14, in a couple of hotels in Dublin, Plymouth, and Looe (Cornwall). It even works sometimes on train and car journeys, though it can drop out for several minutes at a time then which is frustrating. A few months ago we moved house and BT cocked up and took over 2 weeks to supply us with a phone service. During this time I used the broadband dongle for all my Internet needs, on a 1GB/month plan. Obviously I didn't try to download anything big, watch videos etc etc but otherwise my usage was no different, by necessity. No real problems, I think it dropped out for about 5 minutes on one occasion. I'm really glad that mobile broadband exists, it makes my life a lot easier. I'd never replace the DSL service with it for all use, just because I don't want to worry so much about how much I'm downloading. But if *I* can get by then I can't see why a light Internet user can't too. > It's also seriously expensive, when you compare data rates and > download allowances with other media. Don't go there - it'll just lead > to tears! It's not expensive if you stay within the limits of the service. If you need to download a lot then it's not a good solution. Cheers, Andy -- http://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting I'm still banned on #ubuntu-uk though. Or should I say, #ubuntu-anti-trans -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: Digital signature Url : http://lists.gllug.org.uk/pipermail/gllug/attachments/20091213/e9661c7d/attachment.pgp From andy at strugglers.net Sun Dec 13 17:53:20 2009 From: andy at strugglers.net (Andy Smith) Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2009 17:53:20 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Battery-backed SAS controllers In-Reply-To: References: <20091211183408.GG15325@bitfolk.com> Message-ID: <20091213175320.GU15325@bitfolk.com> Hi Rich, On Sat, Dec 12, 2009 at 09:29:25AM +0000, Rich Walker wrote: > Andy Smith wrote: > > Anyone know of a battery-backed SAS controller? That is, something > > like a RAID controller that takes SAS disks but without any RAID > > features, just a battery backed write cache and the disks exposed to > > the OS. > > I have a battery-backed RAM PCI card sitting on a shelf at work. Bought > off Ebay for a server that it doesn't fit. Email me on Monday and I'll > dig out the details. Thanks for the offer, but about 600GiB of storage is required, so actual rotational media is most likely required. Cheers, Andy -- http://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting "I'd be happy to buy all variations of sex to ensure I got what I wanted." -- Gary Coates (talking about cabling) -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: Digital signature Url : http://lists.gllug.org.uk/pipermail/gllug/attachments/20091213/4b9d0a86/attachment.pgp From damerell at chiark.greenend.org.uk Sun Dec 13 18:01:23 2009 From: damerell at chiark.greenend.org.uk (David Damerell) Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2009 18:01:23 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Internet connection through mobile phone In-Reply-To: <1260655799.10086.17.camel@localhost> References: <4B2354F3.8030705@technicalbloke.com> <1260608278.2040.21.camel@L1> <4B236EF5.8090102@technicalbloke.com> <1260615496.2040.54.camel@L1> <4B23E6CA.9010906@technicalbloke.com> <1260655799.10086.17.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <19237.11251.267679.666546@chiark.greenend.org.uk> On Saturday, 12 Dec 2009, Christopher Hunter wrote: >>Given his requirements, 3G may actually be a 'better' solution than >>'fixed line broadband'. I wouldn't suggest it is an appropriate >>'replacement' for most use cases but he was quite clear about what he >>wants and 3G would seem to fit that. >No!!! 3G is largely unavailable (in 80% of the country, it's a figment >of the "service" provider's imagination). What percentage of the _population_? What percentage of London? We are, after all, not the Outer Hebrides Linux Users Group. -- David Damerell Kill the tomato! Today is Monday, December. Tomorrow will be Tuesday, December. From hearnsj at googlemail.com Sun Dec 13 19:04:56 2009 From: hearnsj at googlemail.com (John Hearns) Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2009 19:04:56 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Internet connection through mobile phone In-Reply-To: <19237.11251.267679.666546@chiark.greenend.org.uk> References: <4B2354F3.8030705@technicalbloke.com> <1260608278.2040.21.camel@L1> <4B236EF5.8090102@technicalbloke.com> <1260615496.2040.54.camel@L1> <4B23E6CA.9010906@technicalbloke.com> <1260655799.10086.17.camel@localhost> <19237.11251.267679.666546@chiark.greenend.org.uk> Message-ID: <9f8092cc0912131104i31b3aeffy15b0835ce5d97ae9@mail.gmail.com> 2009/12/13 David Damerell : > What percentage of London? We are, after all, not the Outer Hebrides > Linux Users Group. > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n24aYzOL73U Bear with this till 2 minutes 20 seconds in. From cehunter at gb-x.org Sun Dec 13 19:14:41 2009 From: cehunter at gb-x.org (Christopher Hunter) Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2009 19:14:41 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Internet connection through mobile phone In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1260731681.8644.11.camel@localhost> On Sun, 2009-12-13 at 17:21 +0000, Robert McKay wrote: > One other option I'm considering is getting some kind of parabolic > dish wifi antenna and trying to hook into thecloud or the > BTFON/BTOpenzone hotspot at starbucks (this actually just about works > without a special antenna but it does drop out and there aren't > currently any attractive price-plans for permanent connections to > openzone APs). > If you're planning to construct a high gain wi-fi aerial, the parabolics are a PITA to make. Look at the "Pringles Tube" designs (I've got one here that works reliably over 600 metres, and other homebrew Yagi designs. The only tricky part is getting the feed point match correct - however, the hard bits have been done for you by the aerial hackers like me - just use the dimensions described. C. From general_email at technicalbloke.com Sun Dec 13 19:26:36 2009 From: general_email at technicalbloke.com (general_email at technicalbloke.com) Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2009 19:26:36 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Internet connection through mobile phone In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B253FEC.7040708@technicalbloke.com> Robert McKay wrote: > On Thu, Dec 10, 2009 at 4:09 PM, felix swart wrote: > > Even with the first 5GB of transfer all your http requests are degraded by a > transparent proxy server which degrades the images and inserts javascript > into your web pages.. > > > > > Rob. > > The image quality can be changed / disabled in the TMobile software app (nominally windows and mac only I think but maybe it works under Wine, I dunno). This is probably a good thing if you don't want to spunk all your bandwidth in the first few days of the month. Didn't know about the javascript though, what's that about? Roger. From cehunter at gb-x.org Sun Dec 13 19:29:43 2009 From: cehunter at gb-x.org (Christopher Hunter) Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2009 19:29:43 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Internet connection through mobile phone In-Reply-To: <20091213175115.GT15325@bitfolk.com> References: <4B2354F3.8030705@technicalbloke.com> <1260608278.2040.21.camel@L1> <4B236EF5.8090102@technicalbloke.com> <1260615496.2040.54.camel@L1> <4B23E6CA.9010906@technicalbloke.com> <1260655799.10086.17.camel@localhost> <20091213175115.GT15325@bitfolk.com> Message-ID: <1260732583.8644.25.camel@localhost> On Sun, 2009-12-13 at 17:51 +0000, Andy Smith wrote: > Hi Christopher, > > On Sat, Dec 12, 2009 at 10:09:59PM +0000, Christopher Hunter wrote: > > No!!! 3G is largely unavailable (in 80% of the country, it's a figment > > of the "service" provider's imagination). Where it does actually exist, > > it's flaky as hell - it's not reliable enough for even the most casual > > use. > > I can only say that my experience is very different. > > I have a "3" broadband dongle for Internet access whilst out and > about, and in most locations it works absolutely fine. So far these > locations have included out and about in London, at home in TW14, in > a couple of hotels in Dublin, Plymouth, and Looe (Cornwall). Even the most highly optimistic "coverage" maps provided by the network operators suggest that you were probably not using a "3G" service in most instances. "Mobile Broadband" is an oxymoron in this country - and indeed "broadband" is not the appropriate term for the kind of appalling "service" that much of the country endures. It frustrates me that little or nothing is being done to improve the state of affairs, and that the great British public don't complain because all they've ever seen before is dial-up and their "broadband" services are slightly quicker than that. It's the same malaise that prevents Linux reaching the great unwashed - most people just assume that persistent crashes, viruses and the expense of a replacement computer every three years to keep pace with MS' bloated crapware, are the norm. They believe that computers are "technical", "difficult" and "break down a lot". They also assume "if it's free, it can't be any good"! I was in Vienna last week, and enquired about interweb connection costs and speeds. There seems to be a bit of a price war going on there, and most of the ~20 Mb/s "slow" services are References: <4B2354F3.8030705@technicalbloke.com> <1260608278.2040.21.camel@L1> <4B236EF5.8090102@technicalbloke.com> <1260615496.2040.54.camel@L1> <4B23E6CA.9010906@technicalbloke.com> <1260655799.10086.17.camel@localhost> <19237.11251.267679.666546@chiark.greenend.org.uk> Message-ID: <1260733283.8644.37.camel@localhost> On Sun, 2009-12-13 at 18:01 +0000, David Damerell wrote: > What percentage of the _population_? > > What percentage of London? We are, after all, not the Outer Hebrides > Linux Users Group. Well, interesting you should ask. This afternoon, a couple of friends and I went visiting, which involved a trip across much of North London. Between us, we had mobile net-connected devices that used most of the service providers. The best results we got were with O2 (on a BlackBerry) which showed almost 30% of the routes we took to have 3G coverage. The rest of the routes had 2G coverage (with the very occasional drop-out). The very worst was T-Mobile, followed by "3" - both of which had much worse coverage than O2. Vodafone was almost as good as O2 on the way, but entirely failed to work in any mode at our destination! Our conclusion was that all the "mobile broadband" services are pretty poor, and the data rates are nowhere near as "high" as the abysmal ADSL speeds that most of the country endure. You can draw your own conclusions about the percentage of population coverage - I frankly don't care much. All I can say is that NONE of the "services" are truly reliable, and are certainly too poor to pay money for! C. From robert at mckay.com Sun Dec 13 22:19:16 2009 From: robert at mckay.com (Robert McKay) Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2009 22:19:16 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Internet connection through mobile phone In-Reply-To: <4B253FEC.7040708@technicalbloke.com> References: <4B253FEC.7040708@technicalbloke.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Dec 13, 2009 at 7:26 PM, general_email at technicalbloke.com < general_email at technicalbloke.com> wrote: > > The image quality can be changed / disabled in the TMobile software app > (nominally windows and mac only I think but maybe it works under Wine, I > dunno). This is probably a good thing if you don't want to spunk all > your bandwidth in the first few days of the month. > Ahh. I didn't know that.. still the problem is fixed using the tunnel so I probably won't bother trying to figure out how to disable it. > > Didn't know about the javascript though, what's that about? > The javascript they inject is part of the same thing.. it enables you to press some key (forget which one but it tells you if you hover over an image) on the keyboard to load the full quality images. I haven't really looked into it in detail. Rob. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.gllug.org.uk/pipermail/gllug/attachments/20091213/8f9dd97c/attachment.htm From benjamin at py-soft.co.uk Mon Dec 14 00:04:11 2009 From: benjamin at py-soft.co.uk (Benjamin Donnachie) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 00:04:11 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Internet connection through mobile phone In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <732076a80912131604n4852b9bub514172b335fb329@mail.gmail.com> 2009/12/10 felix swart : > I have moved into a flat which is not connected to the local exchange and am > loathe to hand over roughly £120 to BT for the connection. This just popped up in the top of Google Mail: BT Broadband & Phone Deal[1] - www.bt.com/ - No Line Connection Fee with a Phone Line & Broadband Package. Haven't had a look at it through, so may be a complete rip off... Ben [1] http://www.broadband.bt.com/ppc/index.aspx?keyword=british%20telecom&s_cid=con_ppc_zedmedia_vidZ60_Broadband&vendorid=Z60&gclid=CKe-z4nQ1J4CFeZr4wodWGhMsQ From S.Tohill at westminster.ac.uk Mon Dec 14 00:07:52 2009 From: S.Tohill at westminster.ac.uk (sean) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 00:07:52 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Internet connection through mobile phone In-Reply-To: <20091213175115.GT15325@bitfolk.com> References: <4B2354F3.8030705@technicalbloke.com> <1260608278.2040.21.camel@L1> <4B236EF5.8090102@technicalbloke.com> <1260615496.2040.54.camel@L1> <4B23E6CA.9010906@technicalbloke.com> <1260655799.10086.17.camel@localhost> <20091213175115.GT15325@bitfolk.com> Message-ID: <4B2581D8.7020707@wmin.ac.uk> Andy Smith wrote: > Hi Christopher, > > On Sat, Dec 12, 2009 at 10:09:59PM +0000, Christopher Hunter wrote: > >> No!!! 3G is largely unavailable (in 80% of the country, it's a figment >> of the "service" provider's imagination). Where it does actually exist, >> it's flaky as hell - it's not reliable enough for even the most casual >> use. >> > > I can only say that my experience is very different. > > I have a "3" broadband dongle for Internet access whilst out and > about, and in most locations it works absolutely fine. So far these > locations have included out and about in London, at home in TW14, in > a couple of hotels in Dublin, Plymouth, and Looe (Cornwall). > > It even works sometimes on train and car journeys, though it can > drop out for several minutes at a time then which is frustrating. > > i have a similar experience. i have 3 mobile just for when i'm travelling. it costs £5 per month for 1G of data with a free dongle. i use ssh, ftp and some surfing. it seems to work ok in london and on regular train journeys to southampton and cardiff. on those journeys i get mostly HSDPA, small sections of 3G and some sections with no connection, tunnels, deep cuttings etc. i sometimes have to use it for a couple of days when i'm away from work and home, and wouldn't want to use it for much longer, but it's ok for maintaining a connection with work and web surfing. the days of 300baud on a modem, now that was slow. how on earth did internetworking ever catch on :) regards sean -- The University of Westminster is a charity and a company limited by guarantee. Registration number: 977818 England. Registered Office: 309 Regent Street, London W1B 2UW, UK. From hearnsj at googlemail.com Mon Dec 14 06:47:27 2009 From: hearnsj at googlemail.com (John Hearns) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 06:47:27 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Internet connection through mobile phone In-Reply-To: <4B2581D8.7020707@wmin.ac.uk> References: <4B2354F3.8030705@technicalbloke.com> <1260608278.2040.21.camel@L1> <4B236EF5.8090102@technicalbloke.com> <1260615496.2040.54.camel@L1> <4B23E6CA.9010906@technicalbloke.com> <1260655799.10086.17.camel@localhost> <20091213175115.GT15325@bitfolk.com> <4B2581D8.7020707@wmin.ac.uk> Message-ID: <9f8092cc0912132247n2618d0adhdf0f04d2f5dea143@mail.gmail.com> 2009/12/14 sean : > the days of 300baud on a modem, now that was slow. how on earth did > internetworking ever catch on :) > 300 b'aud? Luxury. In them days, we'd a' been glad t' av 300 b'aud. From john at sinodun.org.uk Mon Dec 14 06:55:22 2009 From: john at sinodun.org.uk (John Winters) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 06:55:22 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Have recent kernels improved power consumption Message-ID: <4B25E15A.8020509@sinodun.org.uk> I have an Acer Aspire One netbook on which I ran Lenny (2.6.26) to begin with. It settled down to an estimated (and apparently fairly accurate) battery life of about 1 hour 45 minutes. Recently I've upgraded it to Squeeze (2.6.30) and I've noticed that the estimated battery life seems to have increased to about 2 hours 30 minutes. I actually put it to the test last night by leaving it running, and although I didn't run the battery right down, it certainly seemed to be on course to last significantly longer than before. I'm wondering why. Have there been improvements to power management in recent kernels? Or improvements to ancillary bits? I presume it's not just that the battery has suddenly got better. John From general_email at technicalbloke.com Mon Dec 14 07:42:55 2009 From: general_email at technicalbloke.com (general_email at technicalbloke.com) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 07:42:55 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Internet connection through mobile phone In-Reply-To: References: <4B253FEC.7040708@technicalbloke.com> Message-ID: <4B25EC7F.5040909@technicalbloke.com> Robert McKay wrote: > On Sun, Dec 13, 2009 at 7:26 PM, general_email at technicalbloke.com < > general_email at technicalbloke.com> wrote: > > > >> Didn't know about the javascript though, what's that about? >> >> > > The javascript they inject is part of the same thing.. it enables you to > press some key (forget which one but it tells you if you hover over an > image) on the keyboard to load the full quality images. I haven't really > looked into it in detail. > > Rob. > > Hmm, I don't like the sound of that, although I'd recommend anyone using 3G to use NoScript anyway, or at least AdBlock Plus. 3rd parties injecting code into my pages makes my skin crawl, I feel man-in-the-middled! All the more reason to use https whenever possible I suppose. Incidentally I would have thought there was a firefox extension for that but I can't find one, guess it's a non trivial problem :/ Roger. From rw at shadowrobot.com Mon Dec 14 10:25:55 2009 From: rw at shadowrobot.com (Rich Walker) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 10:25:55 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Battery-backed SAS controllers In-Reply-To: <20091213175320.GU15325@bitfolk.com> (Andy Smith's message of "Sun, 13 Dec 2009 17:53:20 +0000") References: <20091211183408.GG15325@bitfolk.com> <20091213175320.GU15325@bitfolk.com> Message-ID: Andy Smith writes: > Hi Rich, >> I have a battery-backed RAM PCI card sitting on a shelf at work. Bought >> off Ebay for a server that it doesn't fit. Email me on Monday and I'll >> dig out the details. > > Thanks for the offer, but about 600GiB of storage is required, so > actual rotational media is most likely required. This is the battery-backed RAM cache from some kind of disk store unit. I assume that under Linux you'd partition it, and use each partition as the journal for a separate rotating file system. cheers, Rich. > > Cheers, > Andy > > -- > http://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting > > "I'd be happy to buy all variations of sex to ensure I got what I wanted." > -- Gary Coates (talking about cabling) > > -- > Gllug mailing list - Gllug at gllug.org.uk > http://lists.gllug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/gllug -- rich walker | Shadow Robot Company | rw at shadowrobot.com managing director 251 Liverpool Road | skype: rich_at_shadow need a Hand? London N1 1LX | +44 20 7700 2487 http://www.shadowrobot.com/hand/ | +44 7866 561014 From zvi.grauer at gmail.com Mon Dec 14 02:45:26 2009 From: zvi.grauer at gmail.com (Zvi Grauer) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 01:45:26 -0100 Subject: [Gllug] [Lonix] Phone App question Message-ID: <1260759676216661@lonix.org.uk>Mime-Version: 1.0 Hi All, 1. Thanks for the advice and responses. 2. I updated Wordpress which I use for a rather dormant blog, and for some unknown reason it took over the web server... - following the update, words2u.net and www.words2u.net now direct to the blog, blog.words2u.net, even though I have not done anything to apache2 configuration. So please, if you want to see what I do with GPS, following my previous email, use the following: gps.words2u.net which still goes to the right place. I will try and figure out what went wrong with my virtual host configuration and fix it in the meantime. Z. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.gllug.org.uk/pipermail/gllug/attachments/20091214/b0af5133/attachment.htm From sean at practicalweb.co.uk Mon Dec 14 13:47:55 2009 From: sean at practicalweb.co.uk (Sean Burlington) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 13:47:55 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Internet connection through mobile phone In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5e3a9daa0912140547y1ef8c0acj9b74410d9acc510e@mail.gmail.com> 2009/12/11 Caroline Ford : > 2009/12/10 felix swart >> . Does anyone >> have experience with mobile internet used for a home connection; no >> streaming or downloading distro images, just general surfing. >> > > It's terrible. Third rate, blocked ports, filtered, crap bandwidth. Not a > replacement. > generally that's been my experience (doesn't even connect half the time) I did recently find out that 3G can work though! I was on holiday in Wales and must have been near a 3G transmitter that nobody else was using - connected every time, fast responses - happy web surfing! Ports were still blocked and images quality was rubbish (compressing transparent proxy) But it turns out the technology does actually work (under perfect conditions) I have since cancelled my contract - those conditions were just too rare. I'm looking into whether I can connect via my G1 as it seems silly to pay for a separate 3G connection when my phone already has one. -- Sean Burlington www.practicalweb.co.uk From gordon.joly at pobox.com Mon Dec 14 17:11:28 2009 From: gordon.joly at pobox.com (Gordon Joly) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 17:11:28 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Internet connection through mobile phone In-Reply-To: <5e3a9daa0912140547y1ef8c0acj9b74410d9acc510e@mail.gmail.com> References: <5e3a9daa0912140547y1ef8c0acj9b74410d9acc510e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B2671C0.80709@pobox.com> Similar to a comment above... I tried to use my Nokia 5800 as a mobile phone modem/router to connect to my laptop, and was forced to abandon the Bluetooth method (well documented bug in the o/s, I discovered). I now connect to the Internet via wifi; the phone acts as an access point (via Virgin GPRS services). Free software from http://www.joiku.com/ (also a paid version with more features). Gordo From jason at ukfsn.org Mon Dec 14 17:24:39 2009 From: jason at ukfsn.org (Jason Clifford) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 17:24:39 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Internet connection through mobile phone In-Reply-To: <732076a80912131604n4852b9bub514172b335fb329@mail.gmail.com> References: <732076a80912131604n4852b9bub514172b335fb329@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1260811479.2010.215.camel@L1> On Mon, 2009-12-14 at 00:04 +0000, Benjamin Donnachie wrote: > This just popped up in the top of Google Mail: > > BT Broadband & Phone Deal[1] - www.bt.com/ - No Line Connection Fee > with a Phone Line & Broadband Package. > > Haven't had a look at it through, so may be a complete rip off... It's BT so expect to be tied into a long contract and for them to call you and offer you a deal when the minimum term is almost up but to "forget" to mention that taking the deal with result in you being tied into the contract for a further 12 months. If your requirements are modest and you don't mind your connection being throttled to death BT are OK but there are much better providers out there. Personally I'd rather pay the £99+VAT fee for a new line than to be tied into a contract. In fact I've just done so for the flat I moved into some time ago. The PSTN and ADSL will be on 1 month contracts and that's far more important to me than the money. From chrisbell at 3966.ukfsn.org Tue Dec 15 09:46:04 2009 From: chrisbell at 3966.ukfsn.org (Chris Bell) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 10:46:04 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Gllug] Internet connection through mobile phone In-Reply-To: <1260811479.2010.215.camel@L1> Message-ID: On Mon 14 Dec, Jason Clifford wrote: > > Personally I'd rather pay the £99+VAT fee for a new line than to be tied > into a contract. In fact I've just done so for the flat I moved into > some time ago. The PSTN and ADSL will be on 1 month contracts and that's > far more important to me than the money. > PSTN provided by BT, or some other deal? -- Chris Bell www.chrisbell.org.uk (was www.overview.demon.co.uk) Microsoft sells you Windows ... Linux gives you the whole house. From jason at ukfsn.org Tue Dec 15 10:06:28 2009 From: jason at ukfsn.org (Jason Clifford) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 10:06:28 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Internet connection through mobile phone In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1260871588.2092.2.camel@L1> On Tue, 2009-12-15 at 10:46 +0100, Chris Bell wrote: > > Personally I'd rather pay the £99+VAT fee for a new line than to be tied > > into a contract. In fact I've just done so for the flat I moved into > > some time ago. The PSTN and ADSL will be on 1 month contracts and that's > > far more important to me than the money. > > > PSTN provided by BT, or some other deal? No. It's via UKFSN. It is a BT line but only on a wholesale basis so it's not anything to do with BT retail. From matthew.king at monnsta.net Tue Dec 15 10:18:01 2009 From: matthew.king at monnsta.net (Matthew King) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 10:18:01 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Internet connection through mobile phone In-Reply-To: <1260871588.2092.2.camel@L1> (Jason Clifford's message of "Tue, 15 Dec 2009 10:06:28 +0000") References: <1260871588.2092.2.camel@L1> Message-ID: <87pr6gr15y.fsf@knight.monnsta.net> Jason Clifford writes: > On Tue, 2009-12-15 at 10:46 +0100, Chris Bell wrote: >> > Personally I'd rather pay the £99+VAT fee for a new line than to be tied >> > into a contract. In fact I've just done so for the flat I moved into >> > some time ago. The PSTN and ADSL will be on 1 month contracts and that's >> > far more important to me than the money. >> > >> PSTN provided by BT, or some other deal? > > No. It's via UKFSN. It is a BT line but only on a wholesale basis so > it's not anything to do with BT retail. It must be useful being your own ISP. Matthew -- I must take issue with the term "a mere child", for it has been my invariable experience that the company of a mere child is infinitely preferable to that of a mere adult. -- Fran Lebowitz From avismailinglistaccount at googlemail.com Tue Dec 15 12:33:40 2009 From: avismailinglistaccount at googlemail.com (Avi Greenbury) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 12:33:40 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Internet connection through mobile phone In-Reply-To: <5e3a9daa0912140547y1ef8c0acj9b74410d9acc510e@mail.gmail.com> References: <5e3a9daa0912140547y1ef8c0acj9b74410d9acc510e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B278224.5020008@gmail.com> On 14/12/2009 13:47, Sean Burlington wrote: > I'm looking into whether I can connect via my G1 as it seems silly to > pay for a separate 3G connection when my phone already has one. I don't think you can with the stock software, but mine with Cyanogen does. Settings->Wireles Controls, turn on tethering, plug it in, and Ubuntu's 9.10 network-manager picks it up and connects. I've never tried it with any other distros/OSs/network mangler. -- Avi Greenbury :) http://aviswebsite.co.uk From jason at ukfsn.org Tue Dec 15 13:08:46 2009 From: jason at ukfsn.org (Jason Clifford) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 13:08:46 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Internet connection through mobile phone In-Reply-To: <87pr6gr15y.fsf@knight.monnsta.net> References: <1260871588.2092.2.camel@L1> <87pr6gr15y.fsf@knight.monnsta.net> Message-ID: <1260882526.2092.6.camel@L1> On Tue, 2009-12-15 at 10:18 +0000, Matthew King wrote: > > No. It's via UKFSN. It is a BT line but only on a wholesale basis so > > it's not anything to do with BT retail. > > It must be useful being your own ISP. Yes but it's nothing really special. UKFSN could supply these to anyone but I don't push them at the moment as they are supplied through Enta who still have not delivered the ordering and management systems for PSTN that they have been promising for ages. Jason From james.dutton at gmail.com Tue Dec 15 13:17:58 2009 From: james.dutton at gmail.com (James Courtier-Dutton) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 13:17:58 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Battery-backed SAS controllers In-Reply-To: <20091212003219.GM15325@bitfolk.com> References: <20091211183408.GG15325@bitfolk.com> <20091212003219.GM15325@bitfolk.com> Message-ID: 2009/12/12 Andy Smith : > On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 06:34:08PM +0000, Andy Smith wrote: >> Anyone know of a battery-backed SAS controller?  That is, something >> like a RAID controller that takes SAS disks but without any RAID >> features, just a battery backed write cache and the disks exposed to >> the OS. > > Based on some off-list chatter maybe I could do with elaborating. > > I can remove the need for hardware RAID cards in all respects except > their battery-backed write cache. > > By using a hardware RAID card I risk the hardware failing and taking > all data with it.  Even holding spares of the card does not always > protect against this.  It would be desirable to remove this point of > failure. > > The cheapest 3ware SAS card with a BBU seems to be about £300, and > it seems a shame to spend that only to put it in JBOD mode (which > may not even use the BBU). > > I can turn on the write caches in the disks themselves, but they > aren't battery-backed, so a power cut or some forms of kernel panic > may well lead to data loss. > > I'm surprised something like this does not exist. > What architecture are you using? Your requirement is very rare which is why it is not widely used. The battery is still a single point of failure. Something like DRDB might suit you better. It helps by having redundant HDs as well as redundant controllers and motherboards. From abuse at cabal.org.uk Tue Dec 15 13:31:38 2009 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 13:31:38 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Battery-backed SAS controllers In-Reply-To: References: <20091211183408.GG15325@bitfolk.com> <20091212003219.GM15325@bitfolk.com> Message-ID: <0DAB5D3D-BEA3-44FD-8F23-8AA11ACC3376@cabal.org.uk> On 15 Dec 2009, at 13:17, James Courtier-Dutton wrote: [...] > What architecture are you using? Your requirement is very rare which > is why it is not widely used. The battery is still a single point of > failure. Battery-backed JBOD isn't *that* odd a requirement. ZFS is more robust than hardware RAID, so there's little need to have (and pay for) the extra complexity. Controller manufacturers seem to be missing a trick here. From james.dutton at gmail.com Tue Dec 15 16:42:52 2009 From: james.dutton at gmail.com (James Courtier-Dutton) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 16:42:52 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Have recent kernels improved power consumption In-Reply-To: <4B25E15A.8020509@sinodun.org.uk> References: <4B25E15A.8020509@sinodun.org.uk> Message-ID: 2009/12/14 John Winters : > I have an Acer Aspire One netbook on which I ran Lenny (2.6.26) to begin > with.  It settled down to an estimated (and apparently fairly accurate) > battery life of about 1 hour 45 minutes. > > Recently I've upgraded it to Squeeze (2.6.30) and I've noticed that the > estimated battery life seems to have increased to about 2 hours 30 > minutes.  I actually put it to the test last night by leaving it > running, and although I didn't run the battery right down, it certainly > seemed to be on course to last significantly longer than before. > > I'm wondering why.  Have there been improvements to power management in > recent kernels?  Or improvements to ancillary bits?  I presume it's not > just that the battery has suddenly got better. > Recent Linux kernels have made great advances in power management. It has moved from everything being on all the time, to devices only being powered on when needed. There are still improvements to be made, but things are definitely getting better. For example, if no sound is being played, Linux can automatically turn off the sound chip and sound amp. Previously, it left the chip and amp at full power. If one is playing a DVD, previously, it would run the DVD player at full 4x or 8x or 16x speed, even though the DVD playing only needs 1x speed. All sorts of minor improvements are being made with each mainline kernel release and these releases happen every 3 months. Kind Regards James From oolon at ankh.org Tue Dec 15 17:53:03 2009 From: oolon at ankh.org (James Hawtin) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 17:53:03 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Battery-backed SAS controllers In-Reply-To: <0DAB5D3D-BEA3-44FD-8F23-8AA11ACC3376@cabal.org.uk> References: <20091211183408.GG15325@bitfolk.com> <20091212003219.GM15325@bitfolk.com> <0DAB5D3D-BEA3-44FD-8F23-8AA11ACC3376@cabal.org.uk> Message-ID: <20091215175303.GA24722@pzat.meep.org> On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 01:31:38PM +0000, Peter Corlett wrote: > Battery-backed JBOD isn't *that* odd a requirement. ZFS is more robust > than hardware RAID, so there's little need to have (and pay for) the > extra complexity. Controller manufacturers seem to be missing a trick > here. Perhaps... can you set drive timeouts for non responsing devices? Anything but mirroring is a nightmare on non hardware based system as they may require alot more reading to keep the parity in sync. For an N+1 raid system you need up to N-1 reads and 2 writes for every one real write, all that additional IO is going though your computers kernel.... Bad! Does ZFS do pre-emptive reads checks for failure? My hardware system does, so ZFS check the status of drives (smart etc), for drives getting to the end of their service life, and pre-emptively move the data to another drive before failure, So no parity rebuild is required? My hardware system does! James From chrisbell at 3966.ukfsn.org Tue Dec 15 19:54:27 2009 From: chrisbell at 3966.ukfsn.org (Chris Bell) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 20:54:27 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Gllug] Software for on-line sales? Message-ID: Hello, Can anyone recommend software suitable for a company selling retail goods via the internet? Thanks for any replies. -- Chris Bell www.chrisbell.org.uk (was www.overview.demon.co.uk) Microsoft sells you Windows ... Linux gives you the whole house. From walter.stanish at saffrondigital.com Tue Dec 15 20:48:36 2009 From: walter.stanish at saffrondigital.com (Walter Stanish) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 20:48:36 -0000 Subject: [Gllug] Software for on-line sales? References: Message-ID: > Can anyone recommend software suitable for a company selling > retail goods via the internet? Thanks for any replies. In short "no", but you will get a lot more pointers and general mileage out of asking here if you provide some more information, as there are quite a few different approaches to selling goods online. In short it depends on many factors such as: - budget - volume of trade - type of goods (eg: digital downloads, electronic media, physical goods self-stocked, physical goods with outsourced warehousing) - corporate structure (tax issues) - expected customer base (currencies required, tax...) - commercial situation - competition's offering - time to market restrictions - degree of technical control required - potential future plans... Overall, if you have volume you can get a merchant account. If you don't, there is a large array of offerings that tend to increase transaction overheads significantly... and then there's fraud. Recently I implemented an HSBC payment gateway via their Secure ePayments system for online electronic media retail. Secure ePayments is a pain of a system to deal with (due to voluminous but largely useless documentation), but GREAT once you get it set up. I just wish they offered it in more countries... - Walter -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 3256 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.gllug.org.uk/pipermail/gllug/attachments/20091215/be13c66b/attachment.bin From chrisbell at 3966.ukfsn.org Tue Dec 15 22:33:26 2009 From: chrisbell at 3966.ukfsn.org (Chris Bell) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 23:33:26 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Gllug] Software for on-line sales? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue 15 Dec, Walter Stanish wrote: > > > Can anyone recommend software suitable for a company selling > > retail goods via the internet? Thanks for any replies. > > In short "no", but you will get a lot more pointers and > general mileage out of asking here if you provide some > more information, as there are quite a few different > approaches to selling goods online. Software is needed to handle the on-line ordering, tracking, and payments. There is an existing (MySQL?) database listing items for sale, stock quantities, customer trade history, and accounting for trade customers > > In short it depends on many factors such as: > - budget I think that money is hard to come by everywhere at present > - volume of trade As much as possible > - type of goods (eg: digital downloads, electronic media, > physical goods self-stocked, physical goods with > outsourced warehousing) Imported mainly computer related hardware, using own warehouse > - corporate structure (tax issues) An established importer and wholesale distributor seeking other outlets > - expected customer base (currencies required, tax...) Mainly UK, arrangements already in use for package, parcel, and pallet delivery > - commercial situation > - competition's offering > - time to market restrictions It can take a few weeks between ordering and receiving a container load, other items may be purchased in smaller quantities for distribution > - degree of technical control required > - potential future plans... > > Overall, if you have volume you can get a merchant account. > If you don't, there is a large array of offerings that > tend to increase transaction overheads significantly... > and then there's fraud. > > Recently I implemented an HSBC payment gateway via > their Secure ePayments system for online electronic > media retail. Secure ePayments is a pain of a system > to deal with (due to voluminous but largely useless > documentation), but GREAT once you get it set up. > I just wish they offered it in more countries... > > - Walter > I am not employed by the company, I just know the owners. -- Chris Bell www.chrisbell.org.uk (was www.overview.demon.co.uk) Microsoft sells you Windows ... Linux gives you the whole house. From caroline.ford.work at googlemail.com Tue Dec 15 22:33:58 2009 From: caroline.ford.work at googlemail.com (Caroline Ford) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 22:33:58 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Software for on-line sales? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 2009/12/15 Chris Bell > On Tue 15 Dec, Walter Stanish wrote: > > > > > Can anyone recommend software suitable for a company selling > > > retail goods via the internet? Thanks for any replies. > > > > In short "no", but you will get a lot more pointers and > > general mileage out of asking here if you provide some > > more information, as there are quite a few different > > approaches to selling goods online. > > Software is needed to handle the on-line ordering, tracking, and > payments. There is an existing (MySQL?) database listing items for sale, > stock quantities, customer trade history, and accounting for trade > customers > > > > > In short it depends on many factors such as: > > - budget > > I think that money is hard to come by everywhere at present > > > - volume of trade > > As much as possible > > Well you'd need a realistic idea before you'd get any kind of sensible answer. I don't think you've thought about any of the details. Caroline -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.gllug.org.uk/pipermail/gllug/attachments/20091215/27ab1cac/attachment.htm From chrisbell at 3966.ukfsn.org Tue Dec 15 23:06:54 2009 From: chrisbell at 3966.ukfsn.org (Chris Bell) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 00:06:54 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Gllug] Software for on-line sales? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue 15 Dec, Caroline Ford wrote: > > Well you'd need a realistic idea before you'd get any kind of sensible answer. I don't think you've thought about any of the details. It is a company owned by friends, they used to import about one container load per day at one time and could gear up to almost anything, but sales hit a brick wall with the banking crisis and they are looking for other sales including on-line retail. -- Chris Bell www.chrisbell.org.uk (was www.overview.demon.co.uk) Microsoft sells you Windows ... Linux gives you the whole house. From general_email at technicalbloke.com Tue Dec 15 23:57:06 2009 From: general_email at technicalbloke.com (general_email at technicalbloke.com) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 23:57:06 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Software for on-line sales? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B282252.6050203@technicalbloke.com> Chris Bell wrote: > Hello, > Can anyone recommend software suitable for a company selling retail goods > via the internet? Thanks for any replies. > > 'OS Commerce' is the most widely know online shopping cart software. I've never used it myself though so I have no idea if it would be suitable for your friends business. It's GPL though so it wouldn't cost you anything to take a look. Roger. From andy at strugglers.net Wed Dec 16 03:04:33 2009 From: andy at strugglers.net (Andy Smith) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 03:04:33 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Battery-backed SAS controllers In-Reply-To: <20091215175303.GA24722@pzat.meep.org> References: <20091211183408.GG15325@bitfolk.com> <20091212003219.GM15325@bitfolk.com> <0DAB5D3D-BEA3-44FD-8F23-8AA11ACC3376@cabal.org.uk> <20091215175303.GA24722@pzat.meep.org> Message-ID: <20091216030433.GY15325@bitfolk.com> Hi James, On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 05:53:03PM +0000, James Hawtin wrote: > On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 01:31:38PM +0000, Peter Corlett wrote: > > Battery-backed JBOD isn't *that* odd a requirement. ZFS is more robust > > than hardware RAID, so there's little need to have (and pay for) the > > extra complexity. Controller manufacturers seem to be missing a trick > > here. > > Perhaps... can you set drive timeouts for non responsing devices? Don't know about this one. I know there are various "RAID edition" SATA drives that are supposed to give up sooner, not sure if it matters on SAS/SCSI. > Anything but mirroring is a nightmare on non hardware based system > as they may require alot more reading to keep the parity in sync. > > For an N+1 raid system you need up to N-1 reads and 2 writes for every one > real write, all that additional IO is going though your computers > kernel.... Bad! In most cases software RAID and similar schemes outperform hardware RAID. The algorithms are known, the processors in servers are faster even while doing other things than the dedicated ones in RAID cards. The only performance issue is bus speed; yes there's extra traffic going over the bus, if that's going to be your bottle neck then fair enough but for most people it isn't. Software RAID doesn't always mean parity, neither does ZFS always mean parity. They do mirroring too, if you want. > Does ZFS do pre-emptive reads checks for failure? My hardware system does, > so ZFS check the status of drives (smart etc), for drives getting to the end > of their service life, and pre-emptively move the data to another drive > before failure, So no parity rebuild is required? My hardware system does! ZFS has checksums to detect all of this. There's some up-and-coming Linux filesystems that will too (e.g. btrfs). Even existing Linux software RAID can do a consistency check and overwrite unreadable sectors with good copies. You can do SMART checks if you like (the disks are JBOD so nothing stopping you talking to them); I probably wouldn't bother though until a drive actually showed problems. I believe there is a Google paper that mentions the limited usefulness of SMART as a predictor of drive failure. Basically clever filesystems that feature extent-based storage, checksums, snapshots, online resizing, online fsck, compression, de-duplication etc. are on their way to making hardware RAID obsolete, so I have to agree with Peter that the controller manufacturers are missing a trick in not selling battery-backed cache on its own. However until I can afford to virtualise the storage to put the battery-backed cache in just one place, it seems I am stuck buying multiple RAID cards just for the cache. :( Total data loss due to RAID card failure really happens, restore from backup then isn't pretty (especially when some data belongs to other people who needed to pay for backups, and they didn't). Cheers, Andy -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: Digital signature Url : http://lists.gllug.org.uk/pipermail/gllug/attachments/20091216/b8d1cf87/attachment.pgp From peter at cannon-linux.co.uk Wed Dec 16 09:05:15 2009 From: peter at cannon-linux.co.uk (Peter Cannon) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 09:05:15 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Software for on-line sales? In-Reply-To: <4B282252.6050203@technicalbloke.com> References: <4B282252.6050203@technicalbloke.com> Message-ID: <4B28A2CB.3050305@cannon-linux.co.uk> general_email at technicalbloke.com wrote: > 'OS Commerce' is the most widely know online shopping cart software. > I've never used it myself though so I have no idea if it would be > suitable for your friends business. It's GPL though so it wouldn't cost > you anything to take a look. OK choices are as has been said 1. OS Commerce (Its OK but Meh IMO) 2. VirtueMart (You'll have to have a Joomla sight as well for this) 3. ZenCart (We use this and I hate it) 4. Actinic http://tinyurl.com/y86x7yr (Which is very good but proprietary and you'll need a Windows client machine but as to be expected integrates with most things) I've used all three of these over the years there are loads of other FOSS variants out there but your problems are not going to be the 'shop' other than customisation ability, your problems will be with payment integration with your accounting package and stock control If you (Or your friends) are happy to do this manually I.e. update stock levels, input purchases into Sage? then all of the above can be installed today and you could have something rough and ready 'live' within half a day. There are plugins for most of these online shops to integrate with lets say Sage however experience has taught me that assistance is generally required to get them working for example (about 3 years ago) we ran a VirtueMart shop that had a PayPal plugin but we had to get someone in to hack the code as it did not work. Hope that helps -- Regards Peter Cannon IRC: dick_turpin @ freenode https://twitter.com/dick_turpin http://www.linkedin.com/in/pcannon http://www.cannon-linux.co.uk http://www.archlinux.org.uk "There is every excuse for not knowing There is no excuse for not asking" From felix.swart at googlemail.com Tue Dec 15 15:14:20 2009 From: felix.swart at googlemail.com (felix swart) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 15:14:20 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Internet connection through mobile phone In-Reply-To: <1260731681.8644.11.camel@localhost> References: <1260731681.8644.11.camel@localhost> Message-ID: > > > One other option I'm considering is getting some kind of parabolic > > dish wifi antenna and trying to hook into thecloud or the > > BTFON/BTOpenzone hotspot at starbucks (this actually just about works > > without a special antenna but it does drop out and there aren't > > currently any attractive price-plans for permanent connections to > > openzone APs). > > > > If you're planning to construct a high gain wi-fi aerial, the parabolics > are a PITA to make. Look at the "Pringles Tube" designs (I've got one > here that works reliably over 600 metres, and other homebrew Yagi > designs. The only tricky part is getting the feed point match correct - > however, the hard bits have been done for you by the aerial hackers like > me - just use the dimensions described. > > C. > > Thank you to all who commented. I have checked that Virgin cover my area and tried using that in my negotiation with BT, to no avail. A work colleague living in the same block of flats is in the same situation and they wouldn't even offer us a discount if we both signed up at the same time. Arguing with them that the technician would only have to come out once to perform both connections proved futile. I actually live about 40 meters from my work and have tried picking up the work wifi network on the laptop. There was no signal indicated through the built-in receiver on a Lenovo W500. I would be interested in receiving information on constructing high gain antennas. Thanks, Felix -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.gllug.org.uk/pipermail/gllug/attachments/20091215/e1751e53/attachment.htm From addw at phcomp.co.uk Wed Dec 16 11:12:01 2009 From: addw at phcomp.co.uk (Alain Williams) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 11:12:01 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] virgin/ntl/telewest plonkers Message-ID: <20091216111201.GE25632@phcomp.co.uk> Arrrgh! I support a local school's IT systems. They are switching to NTL/Virgin for broadband access - since BT are incapable of providing anything better than 1.5MB/s access, so it has to be cable. We have succeeded in getting a fixed IP address from them - so the next thing is to ask them to set the reverse IP address on it so that various protocols (principally email) work properly. Their reply: Unfortunately we are unable to configure customer reverse DNS for cable modem Ip's. Whaaaat ? It is incredibly easy to do, they simply don't want to - or don't think that anybody would want to do that. What complete and utter plonkers. It just reinforces why I *never* recommend them as an ISP - they are as useless as BT-OpenWoes. Has anybody persuaded them to do so ? -- Alain Williams Linux/GNU Consultant - Mail systems, Web sites, Networking, Programmer, IT Lecturer. +44 (0) 787 668 0256 http://www.phcomp.co.uk/ Parliament Hill Computers Ltd. Registration Information: http://www.phcomp.co.uk/contact.php Past chairman of UKUUG: http://www.ukuug.org/ #include From abuse at cabal.org.uk Wed Dec 16 11:22:45 2009 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 11:22:45 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] virgin/ntl/telewest plonkers In-Reply-To: <20091216111201.GE25632@phcomp.co.uk> References: <20091216111201.GE25632@phcomp.co.uk> Message-ID: On 16 Dec 2009, at 11:12, Alain Williams wrote: [...] > Has anybody persuaded them to do so ? It's part of their agreement with RIPE that they have to provide rDNS. This doesn't mean that they have to provide rDNS of the customer's choice, though. From peterachilds at gmail.com Wed Dec 16 11:44:56 2009 From: peterachilds at gmail.com (Peter Childs) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 11:44:56 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] virgin/ntl/telewest plonkers In-Reply-To: <20091216111201.GE25632@phcomp.co.uk> References: <20091216111201.GE25632@phcomp.co.uk> Message-ID: 2009/12/16 Alain Williams : > > Arrrgh! > > I support a local school's IT systems. They are switching to > NTL/Virgin for broadband access - since BT are incapable of providing > anything better than 1.5MB/s access, so it has to be cable. We have > succeeded in getting a fixed IP address from them - so the next thing > is to ask them to set the reverse IP address on it so that various > protocols (principally email) work properly. > > Their reply: > >        Unfortunately we are unable to configure customer reverse DNS for cable >        modem Ip's. > > > Whaaaat ? > It is incredibly easy to do, they simply don't want to - or don't think > that anybody would want to do that. What complete and utter plonkers. > It just reinforces why I *never* recommend them as an ISP - they are as useless > as BT-OpenWoes. > > > Has anybody persuaded them to do so ? > The problem with Virgin, is that they have failed to recognise the full potential of the service they operate. What they should be able to do is quite different from what they actually manage. What they should be able to provide is "Ground Breaking" running circles round round Sky (for TV) and any ADSL 2 service provider. Instead what they provide is Competitive with extremely poor upload speeds and TV that is barely comparable with Sky. Peter. (A Happy Virgin Customer that dreams of better! (Like every UK Telecoms Customer)) From oolon at ankh.org Wed Dec 16 12:07:12 2009 From: oolon at ankh.org (James Hawtin) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 12:07:12 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] virgin/ntl/telewest plonkers In-Reply-To: References: <20091216111201.GE25632@phcomp.co.uk> Message-ID: <20091216120712.GA32621@pzat.meep.org> On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 11:44:56AM +0000, Peter Childs wrote: > The problem with Virgin, is that they have failed to recognise the > full potential of the service they operate. > ..... +1 > (A Happy Virgin Customer that dreams of better! (Like every UK > Telecoms Customer)) I am too... like Peter I wish they would do better they have the network to be the best but don't capitalise on it. James From andy at andymillar.co.uk Wed Dec 16 12:55:31 2009 From: andy at andymillar.co.uk (Andy Millar) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 12:55:31 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] virgin/ntl/telewest plonkers Message-ID: <003601ca7e4f$10608aa0$0200000a@millar.private> 2009/12/16 Alain Williams : > the next thing > is to ask them to set the reverse IP address on it so that various > protocols (principally email) work properly. > > Their reply: > >        Unfortunately we are unable to configure customer reverse DNS for cable >        modem Ip's. > Virgin media do set reverse DNS for all of their IPs. For mail to "work" (see rfc 1912, which is actually optional) you need a valid forward and reverse dns pair. Virgin media do provide this. Andy From general_email at technicalbloke.com Wed Dec 16 12:57:00 2009 From: general_email at technicalbloke.com (general_email at technicalbloke.com) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 12:57:00 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Better podcatcher than Gpodder Message-ID: <4B28D91C.6070000@technicalbloke.com> I'm thoroughly fed up with Gpodder, it's by far the flakiest app on my system, forever seizing up, bombing out and generally being not fit for purpose. I suppose I would consider CLI based solutions but ideally I'd prefer something with a gui. What do you guys use? (those of you that listen to podcasts) Roger. From alan at popey.com Wed Dec 16 13:01:50 2009 From: alan at popey.com (Alan Pope) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 13:01:50 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Better podcatcher than Gpodder In-Reply-To: <4B28D91C.6070000@technicalbloke.com> References: <4B28D91C.6070000@technicalbloke.com> Message-ID: 2009/12/16 general_email at technicalbloke.com : > What do you guys use? (those of you that listen to podcasts) > iTunes ;) However on Linux I have used hpodder in the recent past.It works, but it doesn't have any kind of opml import/export which is annoying. I had to script the subscription process by making lots of:- hpodder add Equally, when I stopped using hpodder I had to use sqlite3 to query the hpodder database to get the URLs out again. Doubleplus ungood. However for the bit in the middle, the actual downloading of podcasts, it seems okay. I hear good things about bashpodder too, but have not used it. In terms of GUIs on Linux I've used Rhythmbox and Banshee in the past. Neither was quite right for me. Cheers, Al. From mail-lists at karan.org Wed Dec 16 13:07:43 2009 From: mail-lists at karan.org (Karanbir Singh) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 13:07:43 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] tv tuner with hdmi input In-Reply-To: <1260477898.19447.11.camel@localhost> References: <4B1FA343.5090405@karan.org> <1260405297.10439.12.camel@Gecko.local> <4B210645.1020301@karan.org> <1260477898.19447.11.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <4B28DB9F.70703@karan.org> Hi, On 12/10/2009 08:44 PM, Christopher Hunter wrote: >> The build quality I am sure is fine, it's not broken down yet. > Actually, it has! The faults you describe are significant failures. true :) > I'm told that this is quite a common problem. > >> Power cycling the sky hd+ box resolved the situation. > > That suggests that either the firmware's flaky (probable) or that > there's a thermal problem with the electronics. You could eliminate the > possibility of the thermal problem by making sure that there's a good > air gap around all sides of the thing, and that it's away from other > sources of heat (and NOT placed on top of the TV!). I had thought of that, and moved it around a bit - but unless there is something internal, there should be no heat issues in the area. The area around it isnt very dusty either that it would have clogged up internal fans etc. > them to replace it. That way you should get the updated version! > You'll just have to be careful to make your vandalism subtle enough to > prevent them realising what's gone on! Rumour has it that the 'thomson' built devices are not nearly as broken as the 'samsung' models... -- Karanbir Singh London, UK | http://www.karan.org/ | twitter.com/kbsingh ICQ: 2522219 | Yahoo IM: z00dax | Gtalk: z00dax GnuPG Key : http://www.karan.org/publickey.asc From mail-lists at karan.org Wed Dec 16 13:13:24 2009 From: mail-lists at karan.org (Karanbir Singh) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 13:13:24 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] tv tuner with hdmi input In-Reply-To: <1260532829.18333.67.camel@Gecko.local> References: <4B1FA343.5090405@karan.org> <1260405297.10439.12.camel@Gecko.local> <4B210645.1020301@karan.org> <1260532829.18333.67.camel@Gecko.local> Message-ID: <4B28DCF4.6040702@karan.org> Hi Justin, On 12/11/2009 12:00 PM, Justin Perreault wrote: > For your situation I would recommend setting a record program to start > before a match by a few minutes and to finish an hour or two afterwards, We are using the regular +/- 10min gap, the problem in my case is not so much as the 10 min, but the fact that the box actually has a clock that slows down. Even if its set to record till 9pm, its a 20% change that it will stop around 8:15 wallclock time ( but the clock on the box will show 9pm, and epg would have moved onto 9pm as well ). A complete power cycle seems to resolve that and bring the time back to reality. > As mentioned by others, a mythtv box might also crash when you are > having signal issues and introducing a mythtv box may compound the > frustrations you get. Though of course as you can actually play with the > system it is possible to find ways around problems. I found that my > system was only dying once every 3-4 months, unless I toyed with it. good point, let me see what can be done about finding some metrics on signal quality. > If you fancy making a rf power cycling script that uses object > recognition(or sound variance recognition) to watch the signal for you > from a remote machine, then a couple of X10 power switches will let you > cycle your sky box automatically along with your myth box if needed. There is major potential in a over-the-xmas-holidays project here... thanks for the info. -- Karanbir Singh London, UK | http://www.karan.org/ | twitter.com/kbsingh ICQ: 2522219 | Yahoo IM: z00dax | Gtalk: z00dax GnuPG Key : http://www.karan.org/publickey.asc From mail-lists at karan.org Wed Dec 16 13:27:23 2009 From: mail-lists at karan.org (Karanbir Singh) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 13:27:23 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] tv tuner with hdmi input In-Reply-To: References: <4B1FA343.5090405@karan.org> <4B207E1F.2010107@lineone.net> Message-ID: <4B28E03B.3010401@karan.org> On 12/10/2009 05:26 PM, Andre Newman wrote: > Being an Engineer for a moment; do you have good signal strength, > is your dish properly aligned, not damaged, trees overgrown although > that's usually a spring problem. Are your cables good quality (not > shotgun cable), water sealed at the dish, not rubbed through > somewhere (sky love throwing cables over roofs) and good plugs > properly fitted at the Sky box end?? The only real 'metric' I have to go on at the moment is what is reported by the sky box itself, which seems to indicate a very good signal, everytime I've looked. I am going to do some research and see if I can somehow record ( snmp -> rrdgraph! ) the signal strength. Will post here and let you guys know what I come up with. w.r.t cable - the cable distance from dish to sky box is just under seven feet, the cable looks solid (its the usual dual-core that they now use), no water logging around and connectors look and 'feel' good. Dish alignment ? no idea - but given that the box reports a good connection I'm guessing its fine. On the 'admin' menu, there seems to be some more detailed info - when I get back home today will dig that up and see if any of it is relevant. thanks -- Karanbir Singh London, UK | http://www.karan.org/ | twitter.com/kbsingh ICQ: 2522219 | Yahoo IM: z00dax | Gtalk: z00dax GnuPG Key : http://www.karan.org/publickey.asc From jjllmmss at googlemail.com Wed Dec 16 13:38:31 2009 From: jjllmmss at googlemail.com (JLMS) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 13:38:31 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Better podcatcher than Gpodder In-Reply-To: <4B28D91C.6070000@technicalbloke.com> References: <4B28D91C.6070000@technicalbloke.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 12:57 PM, general_email at technicalbloke.com wrote: > I'm thoroughly fed up with Gpodder, it's by far the flakiest app on my > system, forever seizing up, bombing out and generally being not fit for > purpose. I suppose I would consider CLI based solutions but ideally I'd > prefer something with a gui. > > What do you guys use? (those of you that listen to podcasts) > > Roger. Amarok 1.4, it is almost perfect for podcasts (don't try Amarok 2.x, it is utterly unusable). From proggaprogga at gmail.com Wed Dec 16 13:45:06 2009 From: proggaprogga at gmail.com (Progga) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 13:45:06 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Software for on-line sales? In-Reply-To: <4B28A2CB.3050305@cannon-linux.co.uk> References: <4B282252.6050203@technicalbloke.com> <4B28A2CB.3050305@cannon-linux.co.uk> Message-ID: <2227b8590912160545g499467d6i10178e748f51c89e@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 9:05 AM, Peter Cannon wrote: > general_email at technicalbloke.com wrote: > 1. OS Commerce (Its OK but Meh IMO) > 2. VirtueMart (You'll have to have a Joomla sight as well for this) > 3. ZenCart (We use this and I hate it) > 4. Actinic http://tinyurl.com/y86x7yr (Which is very good but > proprietary and you'll need a Windows client machine but as to be > expected integrates with most things) I'll want to add Magento (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magento). But if I want sell anything online today, I'll probably just stick to Ebay or Amazon :-) They get far more hits from potential buyers than small ecommerce stores. Shopify is another option if you expect a decent amount of sell: https://app.shopify.com/services/signup. And since we are on the topic of selling online, this might be an enjoyable read - http://blog.davidwurtz.com/smart-people-should-do-stupid-stuff (This one got upvoted to proggit's (reddit.com/r/programming) top yesterday). From robertc at boogdesign.com Wed Dec 16 13:54:38 2009 From: robertc at boogdesign.com (Rob Crowther) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 13:54:38 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] virgin/ntl/telewest plonkers In-Reply-To: <20091216111201.GE25632@phcomp.co.uk> References: <20091216111201.GE25632@phcomp.co.uk> Message-ID: <4B28E69E.2000206@boogdesign.com> On 16/12/2009 11:12, Alain Williams wrote: > > Unfortunately we are unable to configure customer reverse DNS for cable > modem Ip's. > > Do you have a 'business' account with them, or regular consumer broadband? Rob From abuse at cabal.org.uk Wed Dec 16 14:18:59 2009 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 14:18:59 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Software for on-line sales? In-Reply-To: <2227b8590912160545g499467d6i10178e748f51c89e@mail.gmail.com> References: <4B282252.6050203@technicalbloke.com> <4B28A2CB.3050305@cannon-linux.co.uk> <2227b8590912160545g499467d6i10178e748f51c89e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2CB9DFFA-2C82-4E2C-A97A-941E6B7F2204@cabal.org.uk> On 16 Dec 2009, at 13:45, Progga wrote: [...] > I'll want to add Magento (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magento). Having watched a fellow contractor drink like a fish to forget, while lighting cigars with twenties, I gather that customising Magento is a right pain in the arse, and expensive to get somebody else to fix. But this also appears to be a feature of all boxed e-commerce "solutions". [...] > And since we are on the topic of selling online, this might be an > enjoyable read - http://blog.davidwurtz.com/smart-people-should-do-stupid-stuff > (This one got upvoted to proggit's (reddit.com/r/programming) top > yesterday). That link just redirects me to http://posterous.com/. I think they're trying to be too clever with cookies and redirection and have a rather brittle result. From gllug at dinkum.org.uk Wed Dec 16 14:28:48 2009 From: gllug at dinkum.org.uk (Andre Newman) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 14:28:48 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] virgin/ntl/telewest plonkers In-Reply-To: <4B28E69E.2000206@boogdesign.com> References: <20091216111201.GE25632@phcomp.co.uk> <4B28E69E.2000206@boogdesign.com> Message-ID: <9EB1237C-E4B8-4F97-A731-EDE580017FCA@dinkum.org.uk> On 16 Dec 2009, at 13:54, Rob Crowther wrote: > On 16/12/2009 11:12, Alain Williams wrote: >> >> Unfortunately we are unable to configure customer reverse DNS for cable >> modem Ip's. I had the same guff from a German provider, recently I decided to get persistent, when I got to speak to the right person, rdns was configured within the hour. >> >> > Do you have a 'business' account with them, or regular consumer broadband? Can you even get a business account with them? I enquired about such things a couple of years ago and they didn't have the faintest idea what I was talking about! Andre From gllug at dinkum.org.uk Wed Dec 16 15:01:44 2009 From: gllug at dinkum.org.uk (Andre Newman) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 15:01:44 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] tv tuner with hdmi input In-Reply-To: <4B28E03B.3010401@karan.org> References: <4B1FA343.5090405@karan.org> <4B207E1F.2010107@lineone.net> <4B28E03B.3010401@karan.org> Message-ID: On 16 Dec 2009, at 13:27, Karanbir Singh wrote: > On 12/10/2009 05:26 PM, Andre Newman wrote: >> Being an Engineer for a moment; do you have good signal strength, >> is your dish properly aligned, not damaged, trees overgrown although >> that's usually a spring problem. Are your cables good quality (not >> shotgun cable), water sealed at the dish, not rubbed through >> somewhere (sky love throwing cables over roofs) and good plugs >> properly fitted at the Sky box end?? > > The only real 'metric' I have to go on at the moment is what is reported > by the sky box itself, which seems to indicate a very good signal, For my sins I have spent some time working with domestic satellite boxes! It's best to ignore the signal strength unless it's saying something very low or very high, even two identical boxes can read very differently from the same feed. The signal quality is sometimes meaningful, if that reads anything other than "lots" 90% 10-6 or however it's shown then you have a problem. Dish alignment or interference into the downlead are the most common, I'd say that the Sky people should have isolated these kind of problems but I spend a lot of time solving problems caused by Sky grade installers so it's very likely they wouldn't find an interference problem unless it was labelled in flashing ink or bit them in the bum. > everytime I've looked. I am going to do some research and see if I can > somehow record ( snmp -> rrdgraph! ) the signal strength. Will post here > and let you guys know what I come up with. If you have a PC card or USB satellite tuner femon is really useful, the actual numbers are BS but it will show changes over time and relative signal to noise across different transponders. H'mm I like that idea, maybe someone has hooked up femon to snmp, might have to go play with that idea :-)) > > w.r.t cable - the cable distance from dish to sky box is just under > seven feet, That's very short, although too much signal isn't likely, domestic boxes do go very wobbly when you hook them up to a 7M or even 3M dish but I doubt that's your problem. ;-) > the cable looks solid (its the usual dual-core that they now If it's the two cores in a round outer, (shotgun cable) that stuff is a disaster, very likely to get pulse interference due to poor screening, it's massively high loss too. If it's only 7 feet away I'd be inclined to get a decent ready made cable and string it out of the window to a spare LNB output and see if the problems go away. > use), no water logging around and connectors look and 'feel' good. Dish > alignment ? no idea - but given that the box reports a good connection > I'm guessing its fine. You could try some channels on Astra (most sky channels) compared to some channels on Eurobird (Brit Shorts comes to mind), Eurobird is usually a little lower level but if it's massively lower your dish could do with a tweak. I get about 30% to 60% level on my Sky box (setup then signal) and that's from an overspecced (by me) communal system that hangs in there though all weather. Got a welding shop as a neighbour? Or as my Uncle found, a neighbour who specialises in Austin Seven maintenance (best in the country apparently, owns five of them himself), plays hell with my Uncle's Sky reception though! You couldn't make that one up :-) Andre From ba1020 at homie.homelinux.net Wed Dec 16 15:12:41 2009 From: ba1020 at homie.homelinux.net (Juergen Schinker) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 15:12:41 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Better podcatcher than Gpodder In-Reply-To: <4B28D91C.6070000@technicalbloke.com> References: <4B28D91C.6070000@technicalbloke.com> Message-ID: <4B28F8E9.50407@homie.homelinux.net> general_email at technicalbloke.com wrote: > I'm thoroughly fed up with Gpodder, it's by far the flakiest app on my > system, forever seizing up, bombing out and generally being not fit for > purpose. I suppose I would consider CLI based solutions but ideally I'd > prefer something with a gui. > > What do you guys use? (those of you that listen to podcasts) > > Roger. > Miro getmiro.com From robertc at boogdesign.com Wed Dec 16 15:55:54 2009 From: robertc at boogdesign.com (Rob Crowther) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 15:55:54 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] virgin/ntl/telewest plonkers In-Reply-To: <9EB1237C-E4B8-4F97-A731-EDE580017FCA@dinkum.org.uk> References: <20091216111201.GE25632@phcomp.co.uk> <4B28E69E.2000206@boogdesign.com> <9EB1237C-E4B8-4F97-A731-EDE580017FCA@dinkum.org.uk> Message-ID: <4B29030A.40000@boogdesign.com> On 16/12/2009 14:28, Andre Newman wrote: > Can you even get a business account with them? > > I enquired about such things a couple of years ago and they didn't have the faintest idea what I was talking about! > At work, we used to have a leased line supplied, indirectly, by Virgin Media. Perhaps that was just classed as a business service rather than a consumer one so we got a different level of support. Rob From justinperreault at dl-jp.com Wed Dec 16 15:56:09 2009 From: justinperreault at dl-jp.com (Justin Perreault) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 15:56:09 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] tv tuner with hdmi input In-Reply-To: <4B28DCF4.6040702@karan.org> References: <4B1FA343.5090405@karan.org> <1260405297.10439.12.camel@Gecko.local> <4B210645.1020301@karan.org> <1260532829.18333.67.camel@Gecko.local> <4B28DCF4.6040702@karan.org> Message-ID: <1260978969.14523.5.camel@Gecko.local> On Wed, 2009-12-16 at 13:13 +0000, Karanbir Singh wrote: > Hi Justin, > > On 12/11/2009 12:00 PM, Justin Perreault wrote: > > For your situation I would recommend setting a record program to start > > before a match by a few minutes and to finish an hour or two afterwards, > > We are using the regular +/- 10min gap, the problem in my case is not so > much as the 10 min, but the fact that the box actually has a clock that > slows down. Even if its set to record till 9pm, its a 20% change that it > will stop around 8:15 wallclock time ( but the clock on the box will > show 9pm, and epg would have moved onto 9pm as well ). A complete power > cycle seems to resolve that and bring the time back to reality. With others comments and the rest of the background you are providing I would almost guarantee that you are having a heat issue. If there is no warranty per se or if the access is easy, it might be worthwhile opening the box and ensuring no build up on the inside. Also check for capacitors burst etc, (I have no idea what your contract with sky says about doing such) And if the timing is messing up that might be a suitable reason to have them replace it. One really should not be having such difficulties with a STB. Justin -- ?We are all agreed that your theory is crazy. The question that divides us is whether it is crazy enough to have a chance of being correct.? -Neils Bohr From general_email at technicalbloke.com Wed Dec 16 16:01:57 2009 From: general_email at technicalbloke.com (general_email at technicalbloke.com) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 16:01:57 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Better podcatcher than Gpodder In-Reply-To: References: <4B28D91C.6070000@technicalbloke.com> Message-ID: <4B290475.2080909@technicalbloke.com> Alan Pope wrote: > 2009/12/16 general_email at technicalbloke.com : > >> What do you guys use? (those of you that listen to podcasts) >> >> > > iTunes ;) > LOL :D Thanks for the suggestions. Roger. From general_email at technicalbloke.com Wed Dec 16 16:06:10 2009 From: general_email at technicalbloke.com (general_email at technicalbloke.com) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 16:06:10 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Software for on-line sales? In-Reply-To: <2227b8590912160545g499467d6i10178e748f51c89e@mail.gmail.com> References: <4B282252.6050203@technicalbloke.com> <4B28A2CB.3050305@cannon-linux.co.uk> <2227b8590912160545g499467d6i10178e748f51c89e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B290572.9000800@technicalbloke.com> Progga wrote: > On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 9:05 AM, Peter Cannon wrote: > >> general_email at technicalbloke.com wrote: >> > > >> 1. OS Commerce (Its OK but Meh IMO) >> 2. VirtueMart (You'll have to have a Joomla sight as well for this) >> 3. ZenCart (We use this and I hate it) >> 4. Actinic http://tinyurl.com/y86x7yr (Which is very good but >> proprietary and you'll need a Windows client machine but as to be >> expected integrates with most things) >> > > I'll want to add Magento (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magento). > > But if I want sell anything online today, I'll probably just stick to > Ebay or Amazon :-) They get far more hits from potential buyers than > small ecommerce stores. > > That's a good point actually, an ebay store would be quick and easy and then you could use turbolister for inventory mamangement. I suppose it depends how large they want things to scale and what granularity of control they need but it might be a good way to get started while you're helping them source a more comprehensive bespoke setup. Roger. > Shopify is another option if you expect a decent amount of sell: > https://app.shopify.com/services/signup. > > And since we are on the topic of selling online, this might be an > enjoyable read - > http://blog.davidwurtz.com/smart-people-should-do-stupid-stuff (This > one got upvoted to proggit's (reddit.com/r/programming) top > yesterday). > From addw at phcomp.co.uk Wed Dec 16 17:31:31 2009 From: addw at phcomp.co.uk (Alain Williams) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 17:31:31 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] virgin/ntl/telewest plonkers In-Reply-To: <003601ca7e4f$10608aa0$0200000a@millar.private> References: <003601ca7e4f$10608aa0$0200000a@millar.private> Message-ID: <20091216173131.GP25632@phcomp.co.uk> On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 12:55:31PM +0000, Andy Millar wrote: > 2009/12/16 Alain Williams : > > the next thing > > is to ask them to set the reverse IP address on it so that various > > protocols (principally email) work properly. > > > > Their reply: > > > >        Unfortunately we are unable to configure customer reverse DNS for cable > >        modem Ip's. > > > > Virgin media do set reverse DNS for all of their IPs. > > For mail to "work" (see rfc 1912, which is actually optional) you need a valid forward and reverse dns pair. Virgin media do provide this. I must admit that I didn't think of this completely obvious solution, no reason why the school's MX record should not point to SOMEWHERE.lutn.cable.ntl.com. It would still be nice ... On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 01:54:38PM +0000, Rob Crowther wrote: > On 16/12/2009 11:12, Alain Williams wrote: > > > > Unfortunately we are unable to configure customer reverse DNS for cable > > modem Ip's. > > > > > Do you have a 'business' account with them, or regular consumer broadband? It is a business account. They still said 'no'. -- Alain Williams Linux/GNU Consultant - Mail systems, Web sites, Networking, Programmer, IT Lecturer. +44 (0) 787 668 0256 http://www.phcomp.co.uk/ Parliament Hill Computers Ltd. Registration Information: http://www.phcomp.co.uk/contact.php Past chairman of UKUUG: http://www.ukuug.org/ #include From cehunter at gb-x.org Wed Dec 16 18:03:09 2009 From: cehunter at gb-x.org (Christopher Hunter) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 18:03:09 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] virgin/ntl/telewest plonkers In-Reply-To: <20091216111201.GE25632@phcomp.co.uk> References: <20091216111201.GE25632@phcomp.co.uk> Message-ID: <1260986589.28843.20.camel@localhost> On Wed, 2009-12-16 at 11:12 +0000, Alain Williams wrote: > Arrrgh! > > I support a local school's IT systems. They are switching to > NTL/Virgin for broadband access - since BT are incapable of providing > anything better than 1.5MB/s access, so it has to be cable. NO!!! You're just exchanging one problem for a huge heap of new ones! You will get persistent, repeated outages that the b*st*rds won't admit are faults. You'll get arbitrary slow-downs - often to dial-up speeds, which they also won't admit are faults. You'll find that their capping just kicks in whenever it feels like it - usually when you're actually trying to do something important. You'll find that they'll NEVER admit that they cap their "service", that any faults you experience are YOUR fault, and you will be lucky to get 1/8th of the rated speed, no matter how much you pay. They use the usual "up-to" get-out, and you might find you get close to the advertised speed for a few minutes in the middle of the night..... > We have > succeeded in getting a fixed IP address from them - so the next thing > is to ask them to set the reverse IP address on it so that various > protocols (principally email) work properly. > > Their reply: > > Unfortunately we are unable to configure customer reverse DNS for cable > modem Ip's. > > > Whaaaat ? > It is incredibly easy to do, they simply don't want to - or don't think > that anybody would want to do that. What complete and utter plonkers. > It just reinforces why I *never* recommend them as an ISP - they are as useless > as BT-OpenWoes. > > > Has anybody persuaded them to do so ? No, and you're unlikely to be able to either. They are a bunch of intransigent, malicious, stupid money-grabbers who'll be amongst the first against the wall when the revolution comes! As an aside - the street I live in has had cable for over twenty years. We used to enjoy services from Cable Camden (later Cable London) and take-up in this neighbourhood was roughly 98% of the households. Since those Virgin-on-the-ridiculous clowns took over, there are less than 7% of homes that remain connected to the cable... C. From cehunter at gb-x.org Wed Dec 16 18:11:30 2009 From: cehunter at gb-x.org (Christopher Hunter) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 18:11:30 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] virgin/ntl/telewest plonkers In-Reply-To: References: <20091216111201.GE25632@phcomp.co.uk> Message-ID: <1260987090.28843.28.camel@localhost> On Wed, 2009-12-16 at 11:44 +0000, Peter Childs wrote: > The problem with Virgin, is that they have failed to recognise the > full potential of the service they operate. The REAL problem with Virgin is that they have bought a cable network that's rotting. It was installed with the cheapest possible coax and that cost-cutting is now biting them hard. Don't ever believe the hype about a "fibre" network - they have (roughly) 4% FTTC (fibre to the cabinet at the corner of your street), and 0% FTTH (into homes). It's just one of their blatant lies. Almost all of their "network" is cheap, rotting coax. The other problems with Virgin are lies about speeds, contention, and capping, and outrageously high prices for a "service" they simply can't deliver properly. All my neighbours voted with their chequebooks, cancelled Virgin, reinstalled BT lines, got Sky TV, went with a multitude of ADSL ISPs at much lower prices, and got the service they paid for. Virgin just can't compete. C. From cehunter at gb-x.org Wed Dec 16 18:21:49 2009 From: cehunter at gb-x.org (Christopher Hunter) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 18:21:49 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Internet connection through mobile phone In-Reply-To: References: <1260731681.8644.11.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <1260987709.28843.30.camel@localhost> On Tue, 2009-12-15 at 15:14 +0000, felix swart wrote: > I actually live about 40 meters from my work and have tried picking up > the work wifi network on the laptop. There was no signal indicated > through the built-in receiver on a Lenovo W500. I would be interested > in receiving information on constructing high gain antennas. http://www.turnpoint.net/wireless/cantennahowto.html The above is a design my brother uses with great success. There are also copious links to other pages on the topic! C. From chrisbell at 3966.ukfsn.org Wed Dec 16 19:27:25 2009 From: chrisbell at 3966.ukfsn.org (Chris Bell) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 20:27:25 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Gllug] Internet connection through mobile phone In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue 15 Dec, felix swart wrote: > > I actually live about 40 meters from my work and have tried picking up the > work wifi network on the laptop. There was no signal indicated through the > built-in receiver on a Lenovo W500. I would be interested in receiving > information on constructing high gain antennas. > > Thanks, > Felix 3adl.com stock high power base units and some higher gain aerials, no idea about prices. -- Chris Bell www.chrisbell.org.uk (was www.overview.demon.co.uk) Microsoft sells you Windows ... Linux gives you the whole house. From nix at esperi.org.uk Wed Dec 16 20:30:52 2009 From: nix at esperi.org.uk (Nix) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 20:30:52 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] [OFFTOPIC] Re: Vista vs seven In-Reply-To: (Chris Bell's message of "Tue, 8 Dec 2009 09:42:37 +0100 (BST)") References: Message-ID: <87hbrqd5kz.fsf@spindle.srvr.nix> On 8 Dec 2009, Chris Bell said: > On Tue 08 Dec, Christopher Hunter wrote: >> In fact my blind friend gave up entirely on Windows software (that he >> had to pay a lot of money for from the RNIB) after the persistent >> crashes, infections and all the rest. > > What does he use instead? I don't know the guy but if he's got half a clue he uses emacspeak. It's really bloody good. From roger at rabbit.name Wed Dec 16 20:37:05 2009 From: roger at rabbit.name (Benjamin Goodacre) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 20:37:05 -0000 Subject: [Gllug] virgin/ntl/telewest plonkers [and Pipex] References: <20091216111201.GE25632@phcomp.co.uk> <1260987090.28843.28.camel@localhost> Message-ID: I have had the same problem with PTRs with Pipex business broadband. I was shocked when they stated that they didn't "support reverse DNS." I thought all business packages with static IPs did PTRs. I made a big fuss and even rang the 'if you wish to cancel us' line to threaten to leave. - No joy. It is my fault of course for not checking first. Thankfully it is rare for an smtp server to check reverse DNS. -- Benjamin Goodacre www.goodacre.name -----Original Message----- From: gllug-bounces at gllug.org.uk [mailto:gllug-bounces at gllug.org.uk] On Behalf Of Christopher Hunter Sent: 16 December 2009 18:12 To: Greater London Linux User Group Subject: Re: [Gllug] virgin/ntl/telewest plonkers On Wed, 2009-12-16 at 11:44 +0000, Peter Childs wrote: > The problem with Virgin, is that they have failed to recognise the > full potential of the service they operate. The REAL problem with Virgin is that they have bought a cable network that's rotting. It was installed with the cheapest possible coax and that cost-cutting is now biting them hard. Don't ever believe the hype about a "fibre" network - they have (roughly) 4% FTTC (fibre to the cabinet at the corner of your street), and 0% FTTH (into homes). It's just one of their blatant lies. Almost all of their "network" is cheap, rotting coax. The other problems with Virgin are lies about speeds, contention, and capping, and outrageously high prices for a "service" they simply can't deliver properly. All my neighbours voted with their chequebooks, cancelled Virgin, reinstalled BT lines, got Sky TV, went with a multitude of ADSL ISPs at much lower prices, and got the service they paid for. Virgin just can't compete. C. -- Gllug mailing list - Gllug at gllug.org.uk http://lists.gllug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/gllug From addw at phcomp.co.uk Wed Dec 16 21:00:22 2009 From: addw at phcomp.co.uk (Alain Williams) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 21:00:22 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] virgin/ntl/telewest plonkers [and Pipex] In-Reply-To: References: <1260987090.28843.28.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <20091216210022.GW25632@phcomp.co.uk> On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 08:37:05PM -0000, Benjamin Goodacre wrote: > I have had the same problem with PTRs with Pipex business broadband. I > was shocked when they stated that they didn't "support reverse DNS." I > thought all business packages with static IPs did PTRs. I made a big > fuss and even rang the 'if you wish to cancel us' line to threaten to > leave. - No joy. It is my fault of course for not checking first. > Thankfully it is rare for an smtp server to check reverse DNS. Incoming mail, maybe not - but if an SMTP server is receiving mail a reverse DNS check is frequently checked. If many smaller ISPs can handle it - it must require a special skill to be really that stupid and incompetent. -- Alain Williams Linux/GNU Consultant - Mail systems, Web sites, Networking, Programmer, IT Lecturer. +44 (0) 787 668 0256 http://www.phcomp.co.uk/ Parliament Hill Computers Ltd. Registration Information: http://www.phcomp.co.uk/contact.php Past chairman of UKUUG: http://www.ukuug.org/ #include From tim at seacon.co.uk Wed Dec 16 20:56:14 2009 From: tim at seacon.co.uk (t.clarke) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 20:56:14 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] virgin/ntl/telewest plonkers In-Reply-To: <20091216111201.GE25632@phcomp.co.uk> References: <20091216111201.GE25632@phcomp.co.uk> Message-ID: There is, of course, no need to use your ISP to provide DNS service for your domain. I believe there are providers who can do this for you regardless of who actually 'owns' your IP address. For example, we have three separate ADSL circuits from completely different ISPs, but the domain name service is provided by just one of them. You don't actually need a reverse DNS entry for email to work. However (from memory - so may recall this incorrectly) some mail-exchangers check for a reverse DNS entry (match it against your smtp 'helo' ?) and will reject your emails if no entry found. Tim From nix at esperi.org.uk Wed Dec 16 21:15:15 2009 From: nix at esperi.org.uk (Nix) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 21:15:15 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Vista vs seven In-Reply-To: <1260143790.3859.15.camel@chris-laptop> (Christopher Hunter's message of "Sun, 06 Dec 2009 23:56:30 +0000") References: <224524288-1259839647-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1274287355-@bda124.bisx.produk.on.blackberry> <1260143790.3859.15.camel@chris-laptop> Message-ID: <87zl5iboyk.fsf@spindle.srvr.nix> On 6 Dec 2009, Christopher Hunter uttered the following: > There is NO Microsoft product that > has EVER worked entirely properly, and they have the gall to expect > their users - who have been fooled into wasting lots of money on > brokenware - to be their beta-testers! To be fair the same is true of all other proprietary software I've ever heard of. MS's brokenness quotient is higher, perhaps, but then they have a love affair with pointless complexity, all hidden from the user except when it goes wrong. From nix at esperi.org.uk Wed Dec 16 21:19:29 2009 From: nix at esperi.org.uk (Nix) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 21:19:29 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Mapping from disk block to LVM partitions In-Reply-To: <20091206161403.GA27187@annexia.org> (Richard Jones's message of "Sun, 6 Dec 2009 16:14:03 +0000") References: <20091206161403.GA27187@annexia.org> Message-ID: <87vdg6bori.fsf@spindle.srvr.nix> On 6 Dec 2009, Richard Jones stated: > The metadata itself is in plain text as I said, in a simple C-like > recursive format. > > # pvs > PV VG Fmt Attr PSize PFree > /dev/dm-0 vg_trick lvm2 a- 931.31G 575.38G > > # strings /dev/dm-0 If you get tired of using strings(1), the vgcfgbackup(8) tool will give you the metadata, and vgcfgrestore(8) will let you replace it (obviously dangerous). From nix at esperi.org.uk Wed Dec 16 21:41:15 2009 From: nix at esperi.org.uk (Nix) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 21:41:15 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Thunderbird 3 In-Reply-To: <4B216C83.6040007@technicalbloke.com> (general's message of "Thu, 10 Dec 2009 21:47:47 +0000") References: <4B1FE415.30409@shadowrobot.com> <4B2104DD.3040704@karan.org> <4B211290.20708@shrdlu.com> <4B216C83.6040007@technicalbloke.com> Message-ID: <87r5qubnr8.fsf@spindle.srvr.nix> On 10 Dec 2009, general stated: > OMG Turnpike still exists! That's quite a blast from the past, I > remember getting it from demon in the mid/late 90s. It was a really good > program at the time but I've not heard mention of it for over a decade. My mother still uses it: it Just Works. It's a real shame it's died but not surprising, what with Demon firing everyone they had left with half a clue a year ago, it's not suprising that the Turnpike hackers got canned as well. :( From nix at esperi.org.uk Wed Dec 16 22:17:25 2009 From: nix at esperi.org.uk (Nix) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 22:17:25 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Battery-backed SAS controllers In-Reply-To: (Rich Walker's message of "Mon, 14 Dec 2009 10:25:55 +0000") References: <20091211183408.GG15325@bitfolk.com> <20091213175320.GU15325@bitfolk.com> Message-ID: <87hbrqbm2y.fsf@spindle.srvr.nix> On 14 Dec 2009, Rich Walker said: > Andy Smith writes: > >> Hi Rich, > >>> I have a battery-backed RAM PCI card sitting on a shelf at work. Bought >>> off Ebay for a server that it doesn't fit. Email me on Monday and I'll >>> dig out the details. >> >> Thanks for the offer, but about 600GiB of storage is required, so >> actual rotational media is most likely required. > > This is the battery-backed RAM cache from some kind of disk store > unit. I assume that under Linux you'd partition it, and use each > partition as the journal for a separate rotating file system. That wouldn't help avoid the failure mode which RAID controllers have battery backing to avoid (power failure while a stripe is partially written on several drives, but different amounts are written on each), unless of course journal guided resync lands (in which case you don't need battery backing at all, just ordinary md). From adrian at newgolddream.dyndns.info Wed Dec 16 22:53:33 2009 From: adrian at newgolddream.dyndns.info (Adrian McMenamin) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 22:53:33 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Mu;tiple asudio track wmvs on linux Message-ID: <1261004013.3793.1.camel@bossclass> I have a (lgeally!) downloaded video from the European parliament which is in wmv format and has multiple audio tracks - I can select it to play in English on windows, but I cannot seem to select the correct audio on Linux - which is where I really want it. Any clues - googling has got me nowhere so far From addw at phcomp.co.uk Wed Dec 16 23:57:57 2009 From: addw at phcomp.co.uk (Alain Williams) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 23:57:57 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] virgin/ntl/telewest plonkers In-Reply-To: References: <20091216111201.GE25632@phcomp.co.uk> Message-ID: <20091216235757.GX25632@phcomp.co.uk> On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 08:56:14PM +0000, t.clarke wrote: > There is, of course, no need to use your ISP to provide DNS service for your > domain. I believe there are providers who can do this for you regardless > of who actually 'owns' your IP address. > > For example, we have three separate ADSL circuits from completely different > ISPs, but the domain name service is provided by just one of them. > > > You don't actually need a reverse DNS entry for email to work. However > (from memory - so may recall this incorrectly) some mail-exchangers check > for a reverse DNS entry (match it against your smtp 'helo' ?) and will reject > your emails if no entry found. Some will also look up your IP address, to get a name & then see if that name resolves to the IP address ... at least exim will do so. -- Alain Williams Linux/GNU Consultant - Mail systems, Web sites, Networking, Programmer, IT Lecturer. +44 (0) 787 668 0256 http://www.phcomp.co.uk/ Parliament Hill Computers Ltd. Registration Information: http://www.phcomp.co.uk/contact.php Past chairman of UKUUG: http://www.ukuug.org/ #include From damerell at chiark.greenend.org.uk Thu Dec 17 03:24:04 2009 From: damerell at chiark.greenend.org.uk (David Damerell) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 03:24:04 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] virgin/ntl/telewest plonkers In-Reply-To: References: <20091216111201.GE25632@phcomp.co.uk> Message-ID: <19241.42068.524690.2544@chiark.greenend.org.uk> On Wednesday, 16 Dec 2009, t.clarke wrote: >There is, of course, no need to use your ISP to provide DNS service for your >domain. I believe there are providers who can do this for you regardless >of who actually 'owns' your IP address. That would be an extremely neat trick with reverse DNS. There seems to be a lot of confusion between "no reverse DNS" (which relatively few ISPs have) and "no control of reverse DNS" (much more common, not a problem for many things including sending email), with "bogus reverse DNS" in between. -- David Damerell flcl? Today is Friday, December. Tomorrow will be Saturday, December - a weekend. From tim at seacon.co.uk Thu Dec 17 06:09:46 2009 From: tim at seacon.co.uk (t.clarke) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 6:09:46 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] virgin/ntl/telewest plonkers In-Reply-To: <19241.42068.524690.2544@chiark.greenend.org.uk> References: <19241.42068.524690.2544@chiark.greenend.org.uk> <20091216111201.GE25632@phcomp.co.uk> Message-ID: David wrote: > That would be a neat trick with reverse dns..... Absolutely ! Shame my post was after a long and tiring drive - not thinking straight. On reflection our domain and its various IP addresses are handled by one ISP but the reverse DNS entries are taken care of by the ISPs themselves separately. Tim From matthew.king at monnsta.net Thu Dec 17 08:33:51 2009 From: matthew.king at monnsta.net (Matthew King) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 08:33:51 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] virgin/ntl/telewest plonkers [and Pipex] In-Reply-To: <20091216210022.GW25632@phcomp.co.uk> (Alain Williams's message of "Wed, 16 Dec 2009 21:00:22 +0000") References: <1260987090.28843.28.camel@localhost> <20091216210022.GW25632@phcomp.co.uk> Message-ID: <87tyvqm234.fsf@knight.monnsta.net> Alain Williams writes: > If many smaller ISPs can handle it - it must require a special skill > to be really that stupid and incompetent. True incompetence is more than a skill, it's an art. Matthew -- I must take issue with the term "a mere child", for it has been my invariable experience that the company of a mere child is infinitely preferable to that of a mere adult. -- Fran Lebowitz From matthew.king at monnsta.net Thu Dec 17 08:37:05 2009 From: matthew.king at monnsta.net (Matthew King) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 08:37:05 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Mu;tiple asudio track wmvs on linux In-Reply-To: <1261004013.3793.1.camel@bossclass> (Adrian McMenamin's message of "Wed, 16 Dec 2009 22:53:33 +0000") References: <1261004013.3793.1.camel@bossclass> Message-ID: <87pr6em1xq.fsf@knight.monnsta.net> Adrian McMenamin writes: > I have a (lgeally!) downloaded video from the European parliament which I know there's talk banded about of draconian measures and fascism and so forth, but has the EU stooped so low as to make videos of parliament sessions potentially illegal? Matthew -- I must take issue with the term "a mere child", for it has been my invariable experience that the company of a mere child is infinitely preferable to that of a mere adult. -- Fran Lebowitz From jjllmmss at googlemail.com Thu Dec 17 10:11:21 2009 From: jjllmmss at googlemail.com (JLMS) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 10:11:21 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] virgin/ntl/telewest plonkers In-Reply-To: <20091216173131.GP25632@phcomp.co.uk> References: <003601ca7e4f$10608aa0$0200000a@millar.private> <20091216173131.GP25632@phcomp.co.uk> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 5:31 PM, Alain Williams wrote: > > On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 01:54:38PM +0000, Rob Crowther wrote: >> On 16/12/2009 11:12, Alain Williams wrote: >> > >> >     Unfortunately we are unable to configure customer reverse DNS for cable >> >     modem Ip's. >> > >> > >> Do you have a 'business' account with them, or regular consumer broadband? > > It is a business account. They still said 'no'. > I would not class such account as a business one then. From general_email at technicalbloke.com Thu Dec 17 12:37:26 2009 From: general_email at technicalbloke.com (general_email at technicalbloke.com) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 12:37:26 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Mu;tiple asudio track wmvs on linux In-Reply-To: <1261004013.3793.1.camel@bossclass> References: <1261004013.3793.1.camel@bossclass> Message-ID: <4B2A2606.3020708@technicalbloke.com> Adrian McMenamin wrote: > I have a (lgeally!) downloaded video from the European parliament which > is in wmv format and has multiple audio tracks - I can select it to play > in English on windows, but I cannot seem to select the correct audio on > Linux - which is where I really want it. > > Any clues - googling has got me nowhere so far > > Have you tried VLC? That let's you select audio channels when playing DVDs/MPEG maybe it will allow it with multitrack wmv too. Failing that you could open it in kdenlive and re-encode it with only the audio tracks you want (or ffmepeg if you're a masochist!). Roger. From rich at annexia.org Thu Dec 17 16:43:41 2009 From: rich at annexia.org (Richard Jones) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 16:43:41 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Software for on-line sales? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20091217164341.GA24303@annexia.org> On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 12:06:54AM +0100, Chris Bell wrote: > On Tue 15 Dec, Caroline Ford wrote: > > > > Well you'd need a realistic idea before you'd get any kind of sensible > answer. I don't think you've thought about any of the details. > > It is a company owned by friends, they used to import about one container > load per day at one time and could gear up to almost anything, but sales hit > a brick wall with the banking crisis and they are looking for other sales > including on-line retail. It could also be dangerous to make recommendations to friends. When I worked in this area, all the merchant systems I saw were awful and full of fail in numerous ways. You'll be blamed for this when the inevitable happens at your friends' company. Rich. -- Richard Jones Red Hat From alan at popey.com Thu Dec 17 21:53:35 2009 From: alan at popey.com (Alan Pope) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 21:53:35 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Mini pre-$HOLIDAY event Message-ID: Hi, Some Ubuntu types are getting together next week in the evening for a bit of pre-$NON_DENOMINATIONAL_SEASONAL_EVENT cheer with sherry[*], mince pies and other nibbles (bring your own). When: 6pm - 9pm, Tuesday 22nd December 2009 Where: The Hub, Islington Link: http://islington.the-hub.net/public/ Register: http://www.doodle.com/4szmpii3prqdia77 Cost: Between £0 and £5. The registration link is just so we have an idea of numbers. The venue isn't free, so a small entry fee may be charged depending upon how many people turn up and whether we can get someone nice to pay for it [HINT]. We're working on that. We have room for about 60 people. It isn't really an Ubuntu specific event, mostly an opportunity to get together and have a chat, pie and swig some drink. So we welcome people from all denominations and creeds etc. If you fancy giving a talk about something you're passionate about, tick the box in the doodle poll. Look forward to seeing some of you there. Cheers, Al. [*] Old lady drink optional. From adrian at newgolddream.dyndns.info Fri Dec 18 10:47:00 2009 From: adrian at newgolddream.dyndns.info (Adrian McMenamin) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 10:47:00 -0000 Subject: [Gllug] rsync over ssh Message-ID: <9fd19755d443757987efaee96f0a9a0e.squirrel@newgolddream.dyndns.info> Sorry for such a simple question but this is driving me mad. I want to backup a directory on a remote server with rsync over ssh. I have been trying the solution in Linux server hacks vol 1 but it's not working and I really don't know why The remote server uses a non-standard ssh port so I try rsync -ave ssh -p [odd port number] root at remoteserver:/var/www/somedirectory/ ./backup and I get "Unexpected remote arg: root at remoteserver:/var/www/somedirectory/" What have I done wrong? From matthew.king at monnsta.net Fri Dec 18 10:54:48 2009 From: matthew.king at monnsta.net (Matthew King) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 10:54:48 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] rsync over ssh In-Reply-To: <9fd19755d443757987efaee96f0a9a0e.squirrel@newgolddream.dyndns.info> (Adrian McMenamin's message of "Fri, 18 Dec 2009 10:47:00 -0000") References: <9fd19755d443757987efaee96f0a9a0e.squirrel@newgolddream.dyndns.info> Message-ID: <87iqc4mu13.fsf@knight.monnsta.net> "Adrian McMenamin" writes: > The remote server uses a non-standard ssh port > > so I try rsync -ave ssh -p [odd port number] > root at remoteserver:/var/www/somedirectory/ ./backup Do you you run rsync -ave ssh -p PORT root at remoteserver:/var/www/somedirectory/ ./backup or rsync -ave "ssh -p PORT" root at remoteserver:/var/www/somedirectory/ ./backup Matthew -- I must take issue with the term "a mere child", for it has been my invariable experience that the company of a mere child is infinitely preferable to that of a mere adult. -- Fran Lebowitz From abuse at cabal.org.uk Fri Dec 18 10:53:25 2009 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 10:53:25 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] rsync over ssh In-Reply-To: <9fd19755d443757987efaee96f0a9a0e.squirrel@newgolddream.dyndns.info> References: <9fd19755d443757987efaee96f0a9a0e.squirrel@newgolddream.dyndns.info> Message-ID: On 18 Dec 2009, at 10:47, Adrian McMenamin wrote: [...] > so I try rsync -ave ssh -p [odd port number] > root at remoteserver:/var/www/somedirectory/ ./backup > and I get "Unexpected remote arg: root at remoteserver:/var/www/ > somedirectory/" > What have I done wrong? Quoting. You want something like this: rsync -ave 'ssh -p [odd port number]' root at remoteserver:/var/www/ somedirectory/ ./backup From andy at andymillar.co.uk Fri Dec 18 10:56:04 2009 From: andy at andymillar.co.uk (Andy Millar) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 10:56:04 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] rsync over ssh In-Reply-To: <9fd19755d443757987efaee96f0a9a0e.squirrel@newgolddream.dyndns.info> References: <9fd19755d443757987efaee96f0a9a0e.squirrel@newgolddream.dyndns.info> Message-ID: <1261133764.5115.118.camel@millaralpt> On Fri, 2009-12-18 at 10:47 +0000, Adrian McMenamin wrote: > so I try rsync -ave ssh -p [odd port number] > root at remoteserver:/var/www/somedirectory/ ./backup > > and I get "Unexpected remote arg: root at remoteserver:/var/www/somedirectory/" > > What have I done wrong? >From the rsync man page you might want: rsync -av -e "ssh -p PORT" root at remoteserver:/dir/ ./backup Andy From adrian at newgolddream.dyndns.info Fri Dec 18 11:01:56 2009 From: adrian at newgolddream.dyndns.info (Adrian McMenamin) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 11:01:56 -0000 Subject: [Gllug] rsync over ssh In-Reply-To: <87iqc4mu13.fsf@knight.monnsta.net> References: <9fd19755d443757987efaee96f0a9a0e.squirrel@newgolddream.dyndns.info> <87iqc4mu13.fsf@knight.monnsta.net> Message-ID: On Fri, December 18, 2009 10:54 am, Matthew King wrote: > "Adrian McMenamin" writes: > >> The remote server uses a non-standard ssh port >> >> so I try rsync -ave ssh -p [odd port number] >> root at remoteserver:/var/www/somedirectory/ ./backup > > Do you you run > > rsync -ave ssh -p PORT root at remoteserver:/var/www/somedirectory/ ./backup > The above (NB I do have the trailing / too - just forgot to copy it before) ie rsync -ave ssh -p PORT root at remoteserver:/var/www/somedirectory/ ./backup/ From adrian at newgolddream.dyndns.info Fri Dec 18 11:04:17 2009 From: adrian at newgolddream.dyndns.info (Adrian McMenamin) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 11:04:17 -0000 Subject: [Gllug] rsync over ssh In-Reply-To: <1261133764.5115.118.camel@millaralpt> References: <9fd19755d443757987efaee96f0a9a0e.squirrel@newgolddream.dyndns.info> <1261133764.5115.118.camel@millaralpt> Message-ID: On Fri, December 18, 2009 10:56 am, Andy Millar wrote: > On Fri, 2009-12-18 at 10:47 +0000, Adrian McMenamin wrote: >> so I try rsync -ave ssh -p [odd port number] >> root at remoteserver:/var/www/somedirectory/ ./backup >> >> and I get "Unexpected remote arg: >> root at remoteserver:/var/www/somedirectory/" >> >> What have I done wrong? > >>From the rsync man page you might want: > > rsync -av -e "ssh -p PORT" root at remoteserver:/dir/ ./backup > Indeed. Many thanks. I tried quotes before (last night) but I quoted the whole ssh expression. But this one certainly seems to be working. From vchurchill at softwareshack.eu Fri Dec 18 11:18:36 2009 From: vchurchill at softwareshack.eu (Victor Churchill) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 11:18:36 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] rsync over ssh In-Reply-To: References: <9fd19755d443757987efaee96f0a9a0e.squirrel@newgolddream.dyndns.info> <1261133764.5115.118.camel@millaralpt> Message-ID: <6026496c0912180318t414073bcl2c41ba1d84cdb00f@mail.gmail.com> Amen to all the above on quoting. You can also set it up in your ~/.ssh/config file with a stanza Host remoteserver Port portnumber Then when you use ssh or any tool like rsync that runs over ssh that port will be used instead of the default port 22. It used to be also possible to control this (just for rsync) by setting the RSYNC_RSH environment variable, but that was years ago when rsync used rsh by default so that could be obsolete now. From andy at andymillar.co.uk Fri Dec 18 11:22:59 2009 From: andy at andymillar.co.uk (Andy Millar) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 11:22:59 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] rsync over ssh In-Reply-To: <6026496c0912180318t414073bcl2c41ba1d84cdb00f@mail.gmail.com> References: <9fd19755d443757987efaee96f0a9a0e.squirrel@newgolddream.dyndns.info> <1261133764.5115.118.camel@millaralpt> <6026496c0912180318t414073bcl2c41ba1d84cdb00f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1261135379.5115.119.camel@millaralpt> On Fri, 2009-12-18 at 11:18 +0000, Victor Churchill wrote: > It used to be also possible to control this (just for rsync) by > setting the RSYNC_RSH environment variable, but that was years ago > when rsync used rsh by default so that could be obsolete now. "You can also specify any remote shell you like, either by using the -e command line option, or by setting the RSYNC_RSH environment variable." You, sir, are correct! Andy From general_email at technicalbloke.com Fri Dec 18 13:00:50 2009 From: general_email at technicalbloke.com (general_email at technicalbloke.com) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 13:00:50 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] rsync over ssh In-Reply-To: <1261133764.5115.118.camel@millaralpt> References: <9fd19755d443757987efaee96f0a9a0e.squirrel@newgolddream.dyndns.info> <1261133764.5115.118.camel@millaralpt> Message-ID: <4B2B7D02.9010304@technicalbloke.com> Andy Millar wrote: > On Fri, 2009-12-18 at 10:47 +0000, Adrian McMenamin wrote: > >> so I try rsync -ave ssh -p [odd port number] >> root at remoteserver:/var/www/somedirectory/ ./backup >> >> and I get "Unexpected remote arg: root at remoteserver:/var/www/somedirectory/" >> >> What have I done wrong? >> > > >From the rsync man page you might want: > > rsync -av -e "ssh -p PORT" root at remoteserver:/dir/ ./backup > > Andy > Interesting, I've never tried it but I'd always assumed that's what the colon was for, like in http requests i.e. rsync -axP ssh_account at 192.168.1.1:32323/whatever/ /home/user/backups/whatever/ I take it that won't work then? Roger. From matthew.king at monnsta.net Fri Dec 18 14:05:49 2009 From: matthew.king at monnsta.net (Matthew King) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 14:05:49 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] rsync over ssh In-Reply-To: <6026496c0912180318t414073bcl2c41ba1d84cdb00f@mail.gmail.com> (Victor Churchill's message of "Fri, 18 Dec 2009 11:18:36 +0000") References: <9fd19755d443757987efaee96f0a9a0e.squirrel@newgolddream.dyndns.info> <1261133764.5115.118.camel@millaralpt> <6026496c0912180318t414073bcl2c41ba1d84cdb00f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <87eimsml6q.fsf@knight.monnsta.net> Victor Churchill writes: > Amen to all the above on quoting. > > You can also set it up in your ~/.ssh/config file with a stanza > > Host remoteserver > Port portnumber Or creating a host entry especially for rsync: Host host-rsync HostName remoteserver Port port Then use 'host-rsync' in the remote url. Matthew -- I must take issue with the term "a mere child", for it has been my invariable experience that the company of a mere child is infinitely preferable to that of a mere adult. -- Fran Lebowitz From john at cornerstonelinux.co.uk Sat Dec 19 11:58:01 2009 From: john at cornerstonelinux.co.uk (John Edwards) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2009 11:58:01 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] [OT] Odd PSU / connector In-Reply-To: <4B1BCDAB.6080907@technicalbloke.com> References: <4B1BBBAB.2060400@technicalbloke.com> <20091206143141.GC17365@cornerstonelinux.co.uk> <4B1BCDAB.6080907@technicalbloke.com> Message-ID: <20091219115800.GA904@cornerstonelinux.co.uk> On Sun, Dec 06, 2009 at 03:28:43PM +0000, general_email at technicalbloke.com wrote: > John Edwards wrote: >> On Sun, Dec 06, 2009 at 02:11:55PM +0000, general_email at technicalbloke.com wrote: >>> Picture here... http://www.technicalbloke.com/12v5v.jpg >> >> Looks like it might be a 4 pin "Snap and Lock": >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DC_connector#Snap_and_lock_DC_power_connectors >> >> Though I have not seen this in the UK, and don't know where to >> buy replacement PSUs for them. > > Yep, that looks like the one, thanks John. I can't find a supplier for > whole PSUs either although it looks like I can at least buy the plugs. > It looks like there's no standard wiring for them either and neither the > nominal manufacturer "Appliansys", or the actual manufacturer "Kink Yung > HK" make any mention of this box on ther websites, let alone have any > downloadable information about them :( Hi If you ever find out more the voltages that this devices uses, then LinITX are selling a couple of different Kycon 4-pin power supplies that may be compatible: http://linitx.com/viewcategory.php?catid=151 One 12V, the other 20V. Prices 20 to 35 UKP. They list two pins as V+ and the other two as GND. -- #---------------------------------------------------------# | John Edwards Email: john at cornerstonelinux.co.uk | #---------------------------------------------------------# -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: Digital signature Url : http://lists.gllug.org.uk/pipermail/gllug/attachments/20091219/41e0241d/attachment.pgp From general_email at technicalbloke.com Sat Dec 19 19:15:25 2009 From: general_email at technicalbloke.com (general_email at technicalbloke.com) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2009 19:15:25 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] [OT] Odd PSU / connector In-Reply-To: <20091219115800.GA904@cornerstonelinux.co.uk> References: <4B1BBBAB.2060400@technicalbloke.com> <20091206143141.GC17365@cornerstonelinux.co.uk> <4B1BCDAB.6080907@technicalbloke.com> <20091219115800.GA904@cornerstonelinux.co.uk> Message-ID: <4B2D264D.2080402@technicalbloke.com> John Edwards wrote: > On Sun, Dec 06, 2009 at 03:28:43PM +0000, general_email at technicalbloke.com wrote: > >> John Edwards wrote: >> >>> On Sun, Dec 06, 2009 at 02:11:55PM +0000, general_email at technicalbloke.com wrote: >>> > > >>>> Picture here... http://www.technicalbloke.com/12v5v.jpg >>>> >>> Looks like it might be a 4 pin "Snap and Lock": >>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DC_connector#Snap_and_lock_DC_power_connectors >>> >>> Though I have not seen this in the UK, and don't know where to >>> buy replacement PSUs for them. >>> >> Yep, that looks like the one, thanks John. I can't find a supplier for >> whole PSUs either although it looks like I can at least buy the plugs. >> It looks like there's no standard wiring for them either and neither the >> nominal manufacturer "Appliansys", or the actual manufacturer "Kink Yung >> HK" make any mention of this box on ther websites, let alone have any >> downloadable information about them :( >> > > > Hi > > If you ever find out more the voltages that this devices uses, then > LinITX are selling a couple of different Kycon 4-pin power supplies > that may be compatible: > http://linitx.com/viewcategory.php?catid=151 > > One 12V, the other 20V. Prices 20 to 35 UKP. They list two pins as > V+ and the other two as GND. > > > Thanks John, I have sourced the correct adaptor now, luckily I found someone with the exact same machine and got the part number of their PSU. Thanks for the link though, looks like a good site, it never hurts to have another supplier to hand :) Cheers, Roger. From neil at safeharbourit.co.uk Sun Dec 20 11:44:12 2009 From: neil at safeharbourit.co.uk (Neil Tancock) Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2009 11:44:12 -0000 Subject: [Gllug] virgin/ntl/telewest plonkers Message-ID: Hi Alain, It may be a little too far down the line for you, but have you tried Cerberus Networks? www.cerberusnetworks.co.uk I have a client off the Bloomsbury exchange who got a pitifully slow connection with BT; we're talking 2.4m/bit download and 448k upload. They're now on 5.8m/bit down and 1.3m/bit up, which is sill not great, but is a huge amount better than anyone else could offer. We've been able to implement some VoIP services with some hope of them working! They charge £40/month for their full package (I have one running in Willenhall that's giving me 14m/bit down and 2.3m/bit up) or £24/month if they can only get you up to 1.5m/bit upload. I have no ties with this supplier, other than I've just converted one of my own broadbands to them as well..... Many thanks, -Neil Neil Tancock Safeharbour Technology           Your IT Department for commercial information and communication technology IT | Communications | Consultancy | Support phone: National: 0845 644 3607 London: 0207 183 3709 Westcountry: 01803 500101 mob: 07812 114784 email: neil at safeharbourit.co.uk web: www.safeharbourit.co.uk Please consider the environment before printing this email The information in this e-mail is confidential and may be legally privileged. It is intended solely for the addressee. Access to this e-mail by anyone else is unauthorised. If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution or any action taken or omitted to be taken in reliance on it, is prohibited and may be unlawful. When addressed to our clients, any opinions or advice contained in this e-mail are subject to the terms and conditions expressed in any applicable governing terms of business. -----Original Message----- From: gllug-bounces at gllug.org.uk [mailto:gllug-bounces at gllug.org.uk] On Behalf Of Alain Williams Sent: 16 December 2009 11:15 To: Greater London Linux UUG Subject: [Gllug] virgin/ntl/telewest plonkers Arrrgh! I support a local school's IT systems. They are switching to NTL/Virgin for broadband access - since BT are incapable of providing anything better than 1.5MB/s access, so it has to be cable. We have succeeded in getting a fixed IP address from them - so the next thing is to ask them to set the reverse IP address on it so that various protocols (principally email) work properly. Their reply: Unfortunately we are unable to configure customer reverse DNS for cable modem Ip's. Whaaaat ? It is incredibly easy to do, they simply don't want to - or don't think that anybody would want to do that. What complete and utter plonkers. It just reinforces why I *never* recommend them as an ISP - they are as useless as BT-OpenWoes. Has anybody persuaded them to do so ? -- Alain Williams Linux/GNU Consultant - Mail systems, Web sites, Networking, Programmer, IT Lecturer. +44 (0) 787 668 0256 http://www.phcomp.co.uk/ Parliament Hill Computers Ltd. Registration Information: http://www.phcomp.co.uk/contact.php Past chairman of UKUUG: http://www.ukuug.org/ #include -- Gllug mailing list - Gllug at gllug.org.uk http://lists.gllug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/gllug From general_email at technicalbloke.com Sun Dec 20 17:54:54 2009 From: general_email at technicalbloke.com (general_email at technicalbloke.com) Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2009 17:54:54 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Overriding Wine dll files. Message-ID: <4B2E64EE.9020902@technicalbloke.com> I'm trying to help service a Wine bug and have been advised to override "ole32.dll". The interface for setting this up in winecfg is quite straightforward and I have set ole32 to "Native then Builtin" for this particular app but I have never told it were my 'native' Microsoft ole32.dll is so I can't imagine this by itself will be enough. The Wine help files suggest I need to put such dll files into ~/.wine/windows/system32/ which would be easy enough, however it would also involve overwriting Wine's version of ole32.dll which several other sites advise against doing: without explaining what the alternative is! Wine has been working fine for me with Photoshop and Spotify so I am inclined to agree with them. The question now is where should I copy the replacement ole32.dll to, if not the /windows/system32/ folder? I can see no way of specifying a path in winecfg or the "WINEDLLOVERRIDES" environment variable and Google's not turned up owt useful yet either :-/ Roger. From addw at phcomp.co.uk Sun Dec 20 21:00:56 2009 From: addw at phcomp.co.uk (Alain Williams) Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2009 21:00:56 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] virgin/ntl/telewest plonkers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20091220210056.GM25632@phcomp.co.uk> On Sun, Dec 20, 2009 at 11:44:12AM -0000, Neil Tancock wrote: > Hi Alain, > > It may be a little too far down the line for you, but have you tried Cerberus Networks? www.cerberusnetworks.co.uk Too late, but not much use anyway. Due to location the local ADSL (phone service) is too slow, so it had to be cable ... thus virgin. -- Alain Williams Linux/GNU Consultant - Mail systems, Web sites, Networking, Programmer, IT Lecturer. +44 (0) 787 668 0256 http://www.phcomp.co.uk/ Parliament Hill Computers Ltd. Registration Information: http://www.phcomp.co.uk/contact.php Past chairman of UKUUG: http://www.ukuug.org/ #include From andy at andymillar.co.uk Sun Dec 20 23:04:29 2009 From: andy at andymillar.co.uk (Andy Millar) Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2009 23:04:29 -0000 Subject: [Gllug] virgin/ntl/telewest plonkers Message-ID: From: gllug-bounces at gllug.org.uk on behalf of Alain Williams > Too late, but not much use anyway. Due to location the local ADSL (phone service) is too slow, so it had to be cable ... thus virgin. - Multiple ADSL Lines? - Leased Line? Andy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.gllug.org.uk/pipermail/gllug/attachments/20091220/2adb99c0/attachment.htm From jjllmmss at googlemail.com Mon Dec 21 08:26:45 2009 From: jjllmmss at googlemail.com (JLMS) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 08:26:45 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] virgin/ntl/telewest plonkers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Dec 20, 2009 at 11:04 PM, Andy Millar wrote: > From: gllug-bounces at gllug.org.uk on behalf of Alain Williams > >> Too late, but not much use anyway. Due to location the local ADSL (phone >> service) is too slow, so it had to be cable ... thus virgin. > > - Multiple ADSL Lines? ??? Explain please. > - Leased Line? > Too expensive? From jason at ukfsn.org Mon Dec 21 08:43:16 2009 From: jason at ukfsn.org (Jason Clifford) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 08:43:16 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] virgin/ntl/telewest plonkers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1261384996.2054.2.camel@L1> On Mon, 2009-12-21 at 08:26 +0000, JLMS wrote: > > - Multiple ADSL Lines? > > ??? > > Explain please. I presume he is referring to bonded ADSL service which uses mlppp to create a single virtual connection. It doesn't always result in the increase in download speed people might expect due to the way BT's IP profile management system works however it can be a good solution. From andy at andymillar.co.uk Mon Dec 21 10:11:19 2009 From: andy at andymillar.co.uk (Andy Millar) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 10:11:19 -0000 Subject: [Gllug] virgin/ntl/telewest plonkers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1261390279.5115.145.camel@millaralpt> On Mon, 2009-12-21 at 08:26 +0000, JLMS wrote: > On Sun, Dec 20, 2009 at 11:04 PM, Andy Millar wrote: > > From: gllug-bounces at gllug.org.uk on behalf of Alain Williams > > > >> Too late, but not much use anyway. Due to location the local ADSL (phone > >> service) is too slow, so it had to be cable ... thus virgin. > > > > - Multiple ADSL Lines? You really have 2 options here. 1. Bonded ADSL http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Channel_bonding http://www.managedcomms.co.uk/services/bonded-adsl 2. Load Balance across separate lines. Assuming most of your data is outbound, a decent router should be able to handle multiple DSL lines and load balance between them. > > > - Leased Line? > > > > Too expensive? You get what you pay for :-) Andy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.gllug.org.uk/pipermail/gllug/attachments/20091221/067c6214/attachment.htm From addw at phcomp.co.uk Mon Dec 21 10:28:57 2009 From: addw at phcomp.co.uk (Alain Williams) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 10:28:57 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] virgin/ntl/telewest plonkers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20091221102857.GR25632@phcomp.co.uk> On Sun, Dec 20, 2009 at 11:04:29PM -0000, Andy Millar wrote: > From: gllug-bounces at gllug.org.uk on behalf of Alain Williams > > > Too late, but not much use anyway. Due to location the local ADSL (phone service) is too slow, so it had to be cable ... thus virgin. Both of the below are too expensive: > - Multiple ADSL Lines? The virgin connection gives a speed some 15x greater than what could be got through the very slow BT lines (long runs, etc). 15 ADSL lines would be too expensive, even if it gave 15x the speed. > - Leased Line? Too expensive -- remember this is a school. -- Alain Williams Linux/GNU Consultant - Mail systems, Web sites, Networking, Programmer, IT Lecturer. +44 (0) 787 668 0256 http://www.phcomp.co.uk/ Parliament Hill Computers Ltd. Registration Information: http://www.phcomp.co.uk/contact.php Past chairman of UKUUG: http://www.ukuug.org/ #include From chrisbell at 3966.ukfsn.org Mon Dec 21 12:35:20 2009 From: chrisbell at 3966.ukfsn.org (Chris Bell) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 13:35:20 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Gllug] virgin/ntl/telewest plonkers In-Reply-To: <20091221102857.GR25632@phcomp.co.uk> Message-ID: On Mon 21 Dec, Alain Williams wrote: > > > Too expensive -- remember this is a school. > I thought that the government was funding fibre to schools. -- Chris Bell www.chrisbell.org.uk (was www.overview.demon.co.uk) Microsoft sells you Windows ... Linux gives you the whole house. From robert at mckay.com Mon Dec 21 12:42:42 2009 From: robert at mckay.com (Robert McKay) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 12:42:42 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] virgin/ntl/telewest plonkers In-Reply-To: References: <20091221102857.GR25632@phcomp.co.uk> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 21, 2009 at 12:35 PM, Chris Bell wrote: > On Mon 21 Dec, Alain Williams wrote: > > > > > > > Too expensive -- remember this is a school. > > > > > I thought that the government was funding fibre to schools. > > I guess the £40/mo (or whatever) the school is paying Virgin technically counts as "government funding fibre to schools".. or at least street cabinets near schools.. ;) Rob. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.gllug.org.uk/pipermail/gllug/attachments/20091221/05e473f7/attachment.htm From dylan at dylan.me.uk Thu Dec 24 17:21:45 2009 From: dylan at dylan.me.uk (Dylan) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2009 17:21:45 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Cartography software Message-ID: <200912241721.45680.dylan@dylan.me.uk> Hi All, I have a series of maps covering aproximately the same area. They are at different scales and the scanned images are different sizes and orientations. Do any of you know of any packages which would (ideally) be able to resize and otherwise adjust the images so they can be overlaid on each other? Cheers Dylan -- ? ?... but there is so much else behind what I say. It makes itself known to me so slowly, so incompletely! ...? ? From hearnsj at googlemail.com Thu Dec 24 20:50:43 2009 From: hearnsj at googlemail.com (John Hearns) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2009 20:50:43 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Cartography software In-Reply-To: <200912241721.45680.dylan@dylan.me.uk> References: <200912241721.45680.dylan@dylan.me.uk> Message-ID: <9f8092cc0912241250i497c8fbeq8a937fbac46a951c@mail.gmail.com> Pbmtools comes to mind: http://netpbm.sourceforge.net/ I guess the problem here is one of image registration (I used to work in multi modality medical imaging). You'll have to identify common points in each image, and resize/transform one image so the points line up to the other. From hearnsj at googlemail.com Thu Dec 24 20:56:02 2009 From: hearnsj at googlemail.com (John Hearns) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2009 20:56:02 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Cartography software In-Reply-To: <9f8092cc0912241250i497c8fbeq8a937fbac46a951c@mail.gmail.com> References: <200912241721.45680.dylan@dylan.me.uk> <9f8092cc0912241250i497c8fbeq8a937fbac46a951c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9f8092cc0912241256m6698be7bw2b4dd7f563406031@mail.gmail.com> Quick Google for image registration software: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image_registration#Open_Source_Software From rich at annexia.org Sat Dec 26 11:00:10 2009 From: rich at annexia.org (Richard Jones) Date: Sat, 26 Dec 2009 11:00:10 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Cartography software In-Reply-To: <200912241721.45680.dylan@dylan.me.uk> References: <200912241721.45680.dylan@dylan.me.uk> Message-ID: <20091226110010.GA13660@annexia.org> On Thu, Dec 24, 2009 at 05:21:45PM +0000, Dylan wrote: > I have a series of maps covering aproximately the same area. They are at > different scales and the scanned images are different sizes and orientations. > > Do any of you know of any packages which would (ideally) be able to resize and > otherwise adjust the images so they can be overlaid on each other? I've not tried it, but is this something that Hugin could do? Rich. -- Richard Jones Red Hat From adrian at newgolddream.dyndns.info Sun Dec 27 17:48:01 2009 From: adrian at newgolddream.dyndns.info (Adrian McMenamin) Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2009 17:48:01 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] LyX/TeX question Message-ID: <1261936081.21057.2.camel@bossclass> I need to draw things such as finite automata, logic gates, boolean equations etc Can anyone recommend places to look for the appropriate extensions for TeX - or as it is a bit simpler - LyX? So far I have been drawing this by hand then embedding it in the LyX - but I am an appalling freehand drawer Thanks From gllug at eco.li Sun Dec 27 17:49:33 2009 From: gllug at eco.li (Dan Kolb) Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2009 17:49:33 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] LyX/TeX question In-Reply-To: <1261936081.21057.2.camel@bossclass> References: <1261936081.21057.2.camel@bossclass> Message-ID: <20091227174933.GS21523@hades.eco.li> On Sun, Dec 27, 2009 at 05:48:01PM +0000, Adrian McMenamin wrote: > I need to draw things such as finite automata, logic gates, boolean > equations etc > > Can anyone recommend places to look for the appropriate extensions for > TeX - or as it is a bit simpler - LyX? xfig (or take a look at the LaTeX graphics companion) Dan -- I am not an Economist. I am an honest man! -- Paul McCracken From sta296 at astradyne.co.uk Sun Dec 27 18:12:39 2009 From: sta296 at astradyne.co.uk (Tethys) Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2009 18:12:39 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] LyX/TeX question In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 27 Dec 2009 17:48:01 GMT." <1261936081.21057.2.camel@bossclass> References: <1261936081.21057.2.camel@bossclass> Message-ID: <200912271812.nBRICdIZ030844@leto.astradyne.corp> -------- Adrian McMenamin writes: >Can anyone recommend places to look for the appropriate extensions for >TeX - or as it is a bit simpler - LyX? The best option is probably to draw stuff in something sane (inkscape, dia, etc.), and include the resulting output into your TeX file. My preferred tool for that sort of diagram is pic, but it's a bit of a hassle getting pic output into a form that you can import into TeX. If you want to do it directly in TeX, then look at the metaobj package. Tet From mark at markpreston.co.uk Sun Dec 27 19:17:04 2009 From: mark at markpreston.co.uk (Mark Preston) Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2009 19:17:04 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] LyX/TeX question Message-ID: <1261941424.3522.107.camel@zlp> Hi Adrian, How about TeXmacs? http://www.texmacs.org/ Regards, Mark Preston From nix at esperi.org.uk Sun Dec 27 20:08:03 2009 From: nix at esperi.org.uk (Nix) Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2009 20:08:03 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] LyX/TeX question In-Reply-To: <200912271812.nBRICdIZ030844@leto.astradyne.corp> (Tethys's message of "Sun, 27 Dec 2009 18:12:39 +0000") References: <1261936081.21057.2.camel@bossclass> <200912271812.nBRICdIZ030844@leto.astradyne.corp> Message-ID: <87y6ko18po.fsf@spindle.srvr.nix> On 27 Dec 2009, Tethys verbalised: > Adrian McMenamin writes: > >>Can anyone recommend places to look for the appropriate extensions for >>TeX - or as it is a bit simpler - LyX? > > The best option is probably to draw stuff in something sane > (inkscape, dia, etc.), and include the resulting output into > your TeX file. My preferred tool for that sort of diagram is > pic, but it's a bit of a hassle getting pic output into a form > that you can import into TeX. If you want to do it directly in > TeX, then look at the metaobj package. You could do it in xypic too, but xypic has the most rebarbative syntax imaginable, so it's perhaps best to look for something else. From adrian at newgolddream.dyndns.info Sun Dec 27 20:11:56 2009 From: adrian at newgolddream.dyndns.info (Adrian McMenamin) Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2009 20:11:56 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] LyX/TeX question In-Reply-To: <1261941424.3522.107.camel@zlp> References: <1261941424.3522.107.camel@zlp> Message-ID: <1261944716.21057.4.camel@bossclass> On Sun, 2009-12-27 at 19:17 +0000, Mark Preston wrote: > Hi Adrian, > How about TeXmacs? http://www.texmacs.org/ > Regards, > Mark Preston > Thanks. I have written stuff in TeX before, I suppose I was looking for a close to "out of the box" solution to writing all this and, especially, to draing the circuits. The most recent freehand PNG I have drawn with GIMP would shame a three year old. From sta296 at astradyne.co.uk Sun Dec 27 22:10:00 2009 From: sta296 at astradyne.co.uk (Tethys) Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2009 22:10:00 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] LyX/TeX question In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 27 Dec 2009 20:08:03 GMT." <87y6ko18po.fsf@spindle.srvr.nix> References: <1261936081.21057.2.camel@bossclass> <200912271812.nBRICdIZ030844@leto.astradyne.corp> <87y6ko18po.fsf@spindle.srvr.nix> Message-ID: <200912272210.nBRMA0jk032735@leto.astradyne.corp> -------- Nix writes: >You could do it in xypic too, but xypic has the most rebarbative syntax >imaginable, so it's perhaps best to look for something else. You've previously made the same claim about sendmail.cf, and you can't have it both ways. Unless you're going to call it a dead heat between the two, that is :-) Tet From roger.whittaker at gmail.com Mon Dec 28 12:14:26 2009 From: roger.whittaker at gmail.com (Roger Whittaker) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2009 12:14:26 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] LyX/TeX question In-Reply-To: <1261936081.21057.2.camel@bossclass> References: <1261936081.21057.2.camel@bossclass> Message-ID: <18b20d490912280414q7a509148j9a70f350ba9dd496@mail.gmail.com> On Sun, Dec 27, 2009 at 5:48 PM, Adrian McMenamin wrote: > I need to draw things such as finite automata, logic gates, boolean > equations etc > > Can anyone recommend places to look for the appropriate extensions for > TeX - or as it is a bit simpler - LyX? TikZ can do some very nice things: http://www.texample.net/tikz/examples/ Roger From johngeoffreywalker at yahoo.co.uk Mon Dec 28 14:10:51 2009 From: johngeoffreywalker at yahoo.co.uk (John G Walker) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2009 14:10:51 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Home sweet home Message-ID: <20091228141051.29658d9d@Rosebud.Harmony> I've just installed OpenSuSE 11.2 on my test machine, and it went through a breeze This was something of a relief, since I've never actually updated a Linux OS before. However, I've now got what I hope is a minor problem, SuSE automatically allocates new partitions for its installation, thus, in the first instance, making things easy for a dummy like me. In particular, the default is to create /home on a separate partition to everything else. This, I have been told, is the way to enable my data to be accessible to the new OS. But, because the installation procedure just creates two partitions, one for /home and one for the rest, the new /home partition is empty. I can access my data perfectly well if I boot up the old version of SuSE, so it's not lost. It's just invisible to SuSE 11.2. Is there any way I can get the two OS's to look at the same partition when I try to access /home. Is there anything clever I can do with YaST? Or command-line stuff would be perfectly acceptable. I surely should be able to tell the system which partition to look at to find /home? -- All the best, John From chrisbell at 3966.ukfsn.org Mon Dec 28 14:39:46 2009 From: chrisbell at 3966.ukfsn.org (Chris Bell) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2009 14:39:46 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Gllug] Home sweet home In-Reply-To: <20091228141051.29658d9d@Rosebud.Harmony> Message-ID: On Mon 28 Dec, John G Walker wrote: > > I've just installed OpenSuSE 11.2 on my test machine, and it went > through a breeze This was something of a relief, since I've never > actually updated a Linux OS before. > > However, I've now got what I hope is a minor problem, SuSE > automatically allocates new partitions for its installation, thus, in > the first instance, making things easy for a dummy like me. In > particular, the default is to create /home on a separate partition to > everything else. This, I have been told, is the way to enable my data > to be accessible to the new OS. The problem you need to get round is that your personal settings for the new system will be in your new /home, which will probably not match those for your old /home, although your general files and data from the old /home can be shared. You could automount your old /home partition as something like /old_home (is it /etc/fstab for SuSE?) and then create one or more symlinks to the relevant personal files using ln -s [old_filename] [new filename] see man ln -- Chris Bell www.chrisbell.org.uk (was www.overview.demon.co.uk) Microsoft sells you Windows ... Linux gives you the whole house. From general_email at technicalbloke.com Mon Dec 28 16:27:00 2009 From: general_email at technicalbloke.com (general_email at technicalbloke.com) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2009 16:27:00 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Wiping free space. Message-ID: <4B38DC54.6080406@technicalbloke.com> I was wondering how one would go about overwriting empty space on a standard ext3 partition. The quickest naive solution would seem to be to pipe the output of /dev/random to a file until all the disk space is used then delete it but... a) I've heard bad things may happen if the system disk get completely full on unix systems, and... b) AFAIK, files are block aligned so files which don't divide perfectly into the block size may have space at the very end of that the OS doesn't regard as free. Are the above conerns legitimate or just here-say? If the former are there any apps I would find in the big 3 repos that overwrite unused space while mitigating the above? Roger. From johngeoffreywalker at yahoo.co.uk Mon Dec 28 16:28:16 2009 From: johngeoffreywalker at yahoo.co.uk (John G Walker) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2009 16:28:16 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Home sweet home In-Reply-To: References: <20091228141051.29658d9d@Rosebud.Harmony> Message-ID: <20091228162816.7f3e235b@Rosebud.Harmony> On Mon, 28 Dec 2009 14:39:46 +0000 (GMT) Chris Bell wrote: > The problem you need to get round is that your personal settings > for the new system will be in your new /home, which will probably not > match those for your old /home, although your general files and data > from the old /home can be shared. You could automount your old /home > partition as something like /old_home (is it /etc/fstab for SuSE?) > and then create one or more symlinks to the relevant personal files > using Thanks, Chris. This makes eminent sense. And SuSE does indeed use /etc/fstab. I thought that this file might turn out to be my friend here. In fact, it occurs to me that the best thing to do would be to move everything (including hidden files, which might contain useful information) over to the new /home directories. This will be a pain at first when I'm actually doing it, but will then mean that I don't have various things in different places, so will make things easier in the long run. Two questions follow on from this, one essential, the other merely useful: First, how do I determine what partitions I have. In particular, I'd like to make sure I'm mounting the correct partition. There must be commands to list partitions and partition contents, but I've never come across them. I can't possibly see how a professional sysadmin could work without these. Secondly, since I'll end up with a spare partition, is there anything useful I could keep there in the long run, once the data has been moved? Anything that the collective experience of the list suggests would be useful to keep separate as well as /home? -- All the best, John From rich at annexia.org Mon Dec 28 17:25:57 2009 From: rich at annexia.org (Richard Jones) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2009 17:25:57 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Wiping free space. In-Reply-To: <4B38DC54.6080406@technicalbloke.com> References: <4B38DC54.6080406@technicalbloke.com> Message-ID: <20091228172557.GA15113@annexia.org> On Mon, Dec 28, 2009 at 04:27:00PM +0000, general_email at technicalbloke.com wrote: > I was wondering how one would go about overwriting empty space on a > standard ext3 partition. The quickest naive solution would seem to be to > pipe the output of /dev/random to a file until all the disk space is > used then delete it but... There are two programs you should probably look at: scrub and zerofree. Scrub simply automates the process you described of creating a large random file and deleteing it. > a) I've heard bad things may happen if the system disk get completely > full on unix systems, and... If the system is quiet, then the bad stuff that could happen is unlikely. You might lose a few log file entries. Don't try it on your busy production webserver though. > b) AFAIK, files are block aligned so files which don't divide perfectly > into the block size may have space at the very end of that the OS > doesn't regard as free. The filesystem writes whole blocks, and if a file doesn't fill a whole block then the fs will write zeroes to the end of the block. > Are the above conerns legitimate or just here-say? If the former are > there any apps I would find in the big 3 repos that overwrite unused > space while mitigating the above? zerofree overwrites unused ext2/3 blocks by knowing something about the ext2/3 format itself. IIRC you have to unmount the filesystem before using it which makes it much less convenient to use than scrub. The above is a bit more complicated if the underlying device is an SSD (not a hard drive) because there the OS doesn't really have full control of the true use and placement of blocks. There is no good way o solve this at the filesystem or OS level - you'd have to issue some sort of "secure wipe" command to the IDE interface directly, and there's no guarantee that it would do anything useful or that you could find out what it was really doing at all. Hard drives can also remap sectors below the OS level but at least you can find out if they did that by issuing SMART commands ("smartctl"). Rich. -- Richard Jones Red Hat From chrisbell at 3966.ukfsn.org Mon Dec 28 17:31:22 2009 From: chrisbell at 3966.ukfsn.org (Chris Bell) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2009 17:31:22 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Gllug] Home sweet home In-Reply-To: <20091228162816.7f3e235b@Rosebud.Harmony> Message-ID: On Mon 28 Dec, John G Walker wrote: > > In fact, it occurs to me that the best thing to do would be to move > everything (including hidden files, which might contain useful > information) over to the new /home directories. This will be a pain at > first when I'm actually doing it, but will then mean that I don't have > various things in different places, so will make things easier in the > long run. > > Two questions follow on from this, one essential, the other merely > useful: > > First, how do I determine what partitions I have. In particular, I'd > like to make sure I'm mounting the correct partition. There must be > commands to list partitions and partition contents, but I've never come > across them. I can't possibly see how a professional sysadmin could > work without these. > > Secondly, since I'll end up with a spare partition, is there anything > useful I could keep there in the long run, once the data has been > moved? Anything that the collective experience of the list suggests > would be useful to keep separate as well as /home? > There is nothing to stop you from automounting your /new_home from the old version and creating symlinks the other way round. A symlink allows you to read, write, and execute with the same permissions that already exist at the other end of the symlink, so you effectively combine the two, just be careful which actual directories are linked across. The quickest way to list the partitions available on each system, including usb plug-in devices, is to use df on each system, or you can examine the contents of each /etc/fstab -- Chris Bell www.chrisbell.org.uk (was www.overview.demon.co.uk) Microsoft sells you Windows ... Linux gives you the whole house. From chrisbell at 3966.ukfsn.org Mon Dec 28 17:43:12 2009 From: chrisbell at 3966.ukfsn.org (Chris Bell) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2009 17:43:12 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Gllug] Home sweet home In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon 28 Dec, Chris Bell wrote: > > > There is nothing to stop you from automounting your /new_home from the > old version and creating symlinks the other way round. A symlink allows you > to read, write, and execute with the same permissions that already exist at > the other end of the symlink, so you effectively combine the two, just be > careful which actual directories are linked across. The quickest way to list > the partitions available on each system, including usb plug-in devices, is to > use > > df > > on each system, or you can examine the contents of each /etc/fstab > Another way of doing things is to originally create very small /home directories with a symlink to a much larger partition or perhaps a separate server. -- Chris Bell www.chrisbell.org.uk (was www.overview.demon.co.uk) Microsoft sells you Windows ... Linux gives you the whole house. From johngeoffreywalker at yahoo.co.uk Mon Dec 28 18:35:35 2009 From: johngeoffreywalker at yahoo.co.uk (John G Walker) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2009 18:35:35 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Home sweet home In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20091228183535.7b7dbbcb@Rosebud.Harmony> On Mon, 28 Dec 2009 17:43:12 +0000 (GMT) Chris Bell wrote: > Another way of doing things is to originally create very small /home > directories with a symlink to a much larger partition or perhaps a > separate server. I can see you're trying to shepherd me into the symlink option I hesitate not to take advice from a professional, but in this case I think I will. The main reason is that the pre-existing data is only a small part of what I'll be using. It belongs to a fun account I run on my test machine. Once I've got the test machine running SuSE 11.2 to my satisfaction then it will become my production machine and I'll be moving across all my live data. If I take the symlink route then I have two options: I can load all my live data in the old /home partition and use symlink for that, which seems a bit of a waste of time. It's no more effort to load it onto the new /home partition. The other option, to load the live data into the new /home partition while using symlink for the "fun" data, seems like adding a bit of pointless complexity in the long run just to avoid a bit of effort now. But thanks for your posts. They've given me a lot to think about, together with some good pointers. I shall sleep on things, -- All the best, John From chrisbell at 3966.ukfsn.org Mon Dec 28 18:54:42 2009 From: chrisbell at 3966.ukfsn.org (Chris Bell) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2009 18:54:42 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Gllug] Home sweet home In-Reply-To: <20091228183535.7b7dbbcb@Rosebud.Harmony> Message-ID: On Mon 28 Dec, John G Walker wrote: > > > I can see you're trying to shepherd me into the symlink option I > hesitate not to take advice from a professional, but in this case I > think I will. > No way "a professional" but a retired TV Outside Broadcast Engineer interested in top quality computer software. -- Chris Bell www.chrisbell.org.uk (was www.overview.demon.co.uk) Microsoft sells you Windows ... Linux gives you the whole house. From lesleyb at herlug.org.uk Mon Dec 28 20:43:40 2009 From: lesleyb at herlug.org.uk ('LesleyB ') Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2009 20:43:40 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] LyX/TeX question In-Reply-To: <1261944716.21057.4.camel@bossclass> References: <1261941424.3522.107.camel@zlp> <1261944716.21057.4.camel@bossclass> Message-ID: <20091228204340.GA6500@pgcroft.net> On Sun, Dec 27, 2009 at 08:11:56PM +0000, Adrian McMenamin wrote: > On Sun, 2009-12-27 at 19:17 +0000, Mark Preston wrote: > > Hi Adrian, > > How about TeXmacs? http://www.texmacs.org/ > > Regards, > > Mark Preston > > > Thanks. > > I have written stuff in TeX before, I suppose I was looking for a close > to "out of the box" solution to writing all this and, especially, to > draing the circuits. > > The most recent freehand PNG I have drawn with GIMP would shame a three > year old. > You don't say what distro you are on, but I can vouch for xfig when creating graphics for a LaTeX document. It produces the eps you need and the output is pretty good. Regards Lesley From hearnsj at googlemail.com Mon Dec 28 21:59:20 2009 From: hearnsj at googlemail.com (John Hearns) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2009 21:59:20 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Home sweet home In-Reply-To: <20091228162816.7f3e235b@Rosebud.Harmony> References: <20091228141051.29658d9d@Rosebud.Harmony> <20091228162816.7f3e235b@Rosebud.Harmony> Message-ID: <9f8092cc0912281359vb5df2cdr3b26d244a2c5a940@mail.gmail.com> 2009/12/28 John G Walker : > > > First, how do I determine what partitions I have. In particular, I'd > like to make sure I'm mounting the correct partition. There must be > commands to list partitions and partition contents, but I've never come > across them. I can't possibly see how a professional sysadmin could > work without these. fdisk -l Regarding the contents of a partition... the only way I know is to mount the thing as (say) /mnt/tmp and go see wat is in there! From adrian at newgolddream.dyndns.info Mon Dec 28 22:16:40 2009 From: adrian at newgolddream.dyndns.info (Adrian McMenamin) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2009 22:16:40 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] LyX/TeX question In-Reply-To: <20091228204340.GA6500@pgcroft.net> References: <1261941424.3522.107.camel@zlp> <1261944716.21057.4.camel@bossclass> <20091228204340.GA6500@pgcroft.net> Message-ID: <1262038600.19878.1.camel@bossclass> On Mon, 2009-12-28 at 20:43 +0000, 'LesleyB ' wrote: > > > > You don't say what distro you are on, but I can vouch for xfig when > creating graphics for a LaTeX document. > > It produces the eps you need and the output is pretty good. It took me a while to get used tio xfig, and it feels like going back 15 years to running SunOS 2.whatever, but it does the job, as you say. From walter.stanish at saffrondigital.com Tue Dec 29 09:20:53 2009 From: walter.stanish at saffrondigital.com (Walter Stanish) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2009 09:20:53 -0000 Subject: [Gllug] Cartography software In-Reply-To: <200912241721.45680.dylan@dylan.me.uk> References: <200912241721.45680.dylan@dylan.me.uk> Message-ID: > I have a series of maps covering aproximately the same area. They are at > different scales and the scanned images are different sizes and orientations. > > Do any of you know of any packages which would (ideally) be able to resize and > otherwise adjust the images so they can be overlaid on each other? GIMP or possibly inkscape (don?t know offhand if it lets you drop in bitmaps) Will let you do this interactively. However, it really depends what you want to overlay them for. For example, if you are building a geospatial dataset from scanned sources (heheh... been there, done that!) then you may be better off using Google Maps API and a custom overlay to enable you to automatically achieve latitude/ longitude for points you select. That way you also get the benefit of at least one extra source, being google Maps satellite view ... and possible two, ie: Google Maps. Guessing another use-case, if you are looking to resize a new map (or two) to meet an existing map's registration (eg: if you have manually stored points on this map using X/Y offsets), then you can often (depending upon accuracy and projection type) use an algorithm to determine required scaling based on the registration of three common points across all maps. Hope that helps. - Walter (I used to a decent sized custom geospatial database with X/Y offsets and a Javascript-based interface in the pre-Google Maps days, so have felt your pain). From walter.stanish at saffrondigital.com Tue Dec 29 09:28:05 2009 From: walter.stanish at saffrondigital.com (Walter Stanish) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2009 09:28:05 -0000 Subject: [Gllug] LyX/TeX question In-Reply-To: <1261936081.21057.2.camel@bossclass> References: <1261936081.21057.2.camel@bossclass> Message-ID: > I need to draw things such as finite automata, logic gates, boolean > equations etc For finite automata and logic gates, consider graphviz. (My second recommendation would be Dia, though that's already been suggested.) Graphviz is *really* great! Basically you define a simple text file called a 'DOT file' with nodes and their relationships / labels / properties. Graphviz ties them all together and outputs SVG/PNG/EPS/ HTML image maps (eg: if you want clickable components)... For some examples see: http://www.ryandesign.com/canviz/ These ones are visualised using a javascript-based DOT renderer, typically though you'd use graphviz to render. The syntax can be a bit of a pain to come to terms with once you start doing larger and more complex layouts and want specific things to happen, but the source is out there... Recently I made a little tool using graphviz to visualise the relationships (explicit through foreign keys or assumed) in a MySQL database direct from a mysqldump file: http://code.google.com/p/mysqlviz Enjoy - Walter From bap at shrdlu.com Tue Dec 29 09:50:43 2009 From: bap at shrdlu.com (Bernard Peek) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2009 09:50:43 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Home sweet home In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B39D0F3.4090509@shrdlu.com> On 28/12/2009 17:43, Chris Bell wrote: > Another way of doing things is to originally create very small /home > directories with a symlink to a much larger partition or perhaps a separate > server. > > What I have done with my test system is to use a separate partition for /home. When I've installed a new distro on it I used custom partitioning to mount that as /home for the new distro. So far that hasn't caused any major problems, although I can see where some might arise. -- bap at shrdlu.com From jjllmmss at googlemail.com Tue Dec 29 10:30:34 2009 From: jjllmmss at googlemail.com (JLMS) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2009 10:30:34 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Wiping free space. In-Reply-To: <4B38DC54.6080406@technicalbloke.com> References: <4B38DC54.6080406@technicalbloke.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 28, 2009 at 4:27 PM, general_email at technicalbloke.com wrote: > I was wondering how one would go about overwriting empty space on a > standard ext3 partition. The quickest naive solution would seem to be to > pipe the output of /dev/random to a file until all the disk space is > used then delete it but... > > a) I've heard bad things may happen if the system disk get completely > full on unix systems, and... It depends. If you do something like that in your / filesystem, then yes, you will see all kind of weird behaviour. If you do that anywhere else, most likely it would only affect applications writing there, so just stop any applications using that filesystem prior to do what you suggest. > > b) AFAIK, files are block aligned so files which don't divide perfectly > into the block size may have space at the very end of that the OS > doesn't regard as free. > > Are the above conerns legitimate or just here-say? If the former are > there any apps I would find in the big 3 repos that overwrite unused > space while mitigating the above? > My main concern would be why to do all this at all. If the data is so sensitive then backup your file systems, clean the disk properly (using DBAN or something similar) or destroy it (if it is old you can get a cheap replacement easily, if it is new, it will cost you relatively little to get a newer, bigger disk), and recover your system from the backups. From chrisbell at 3966.ukfsn.org Tue Dec 29 10:46:56 2009 From: chrisbell at 3966.ukfsn.org (Chris Bell) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2009 10:46:56 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Gllug] Wiping free space. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue 29 Dec, JLMS wrote: > > If the data is so sensitive then backup your file systems, clean the > disk properly (using DBAN or something similar) or destroy it (if it > is old you can get a cheap replacement easily, if it is new, it will > cost you relatively little to get a newer, bigger disk), and recover > your system from the backups. If it is not SATA but IDE you might be surprised at the price because very few are made now and the price has rocketed. -- Chris Bell www.chrisbell.org.uk (was www.overview.demon.co.uk) Microsoft sells you Windows ... Linux gives you the whole house. From rich at annexia.org Tue Dec 29 10:57:00 2009 From: rich at annexia.org (Richard Jones) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2009 10:57:00 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] LyX/TeX question In-Reply-To: <1262038600.19878.1.camel@bossclass> References: <1261941424.3522.107.camel@zlp> <1261944716.21057.4.camel@bossclass> <20091228204340.GA6500@pgcroft.net> <1262038600.19878.1.camel@bossclass> Message-ID: <20091229105700.GA12090@annexia.org> On Mon, Dec 28, 2009 at 10:16:40PM +0000, Adrian McMenamin wrote: > On Mon, 2009-12-28 at 20:43 +0000, 'LesleyB ' wrote: > > > > > > > > You don't say what distro you are on, but I can vouch for xfig when > > creating graphics for a LaTeX document. > > > > It produces the eps you need and the output is pretty good. > > It took me a while to get used tio xfig, and it feels like going back 15 > years to running SunOS 2.whatever, but it does the job, as you say. Indeed ... I think it's interesting that no "modern" tool[1] is as capable as xfig for making accurate figures for technical documentation. Rich. [1] I've tried: dia, inkscape, Visio, gimp/gfig. -- Richard Jones Red Hat From rich at annexia.org Tue Dec 29 10:59:11 2009 From: rich at annexia.org (Richard Jones) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2009 10:59:11 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] LyX/TeX question In-Reply-To: References: <1261936081.21057.2.camel@bossclass> Message-ID: <20091229105911.GB12090@annexia.org> On Tue, Dec 29, 2009 at 09:28:05AM -0000, Walter Stanish wrote: > > I need to draw things such as finite automata, logic gates, boolean > > equations etc > > For finite automata and logic gates, consider graphviz. (My second > recommendation would be Dia, though that's already been suggested.) > > Graphviz is *really* great! Basically you define a simple text file > called a 'DOT file' with nodes and their relationships / labels / > properties. Graphviz ties them all together and outputs SVG/PNG/EPS/ > HTML image maps (eg: if you want clickable components)... Graphviz is great, but I don't think I'd want to use it for drawing anything that wasn't a mathematical graph. Rich. -- Richard Jones Red Hat From rw at shadowrobot.com Tue Dec 29 14:41:02 2009 From: rw at shadowrobot.com (Rich Walker) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2009 14:41:02 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Wiping free space. In-Reply-To: References: <4B38DC54.6080406@technicalbloke.com> Message-ID: <4B3A14FE.8050205@shadowrobot.com> On 29/12/2009 10:30, JLMS wrote: > If you do something like that in your / filesystem, then yes, you will > see all kind of weird behaviour. > > If you do that anywhere else, most likely it would only affect > applications writing there, so just stop any applications using that > filesystem prior to do what you suggest. We have regular fun from /var filling up. Typical symptom is that you can't log-in from kdm/gdm - it accepts the password, but fails to start your desktop... As a result, now /var/tmp is usually tmpfs, and /var/log in a separate partition. cheers, Rich. -- rich walker | Shadow Robot Company | rw at shadowrobot.com managing director 251 Liverpool Road | skype: rich_at_shadow need a Hand? London N1 1LX | +44 20 7700 2487 http://www.shadowrobot.com/hand/ @shadowrobot From jjllmmss at googlemail.com Tue Dec 29 15:22:48 2009 From: jjllmmss at googlemail.com (JLMS) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2009 15:22:48 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Wiping free space. In-Reply-To: <4B3A14FE.8050205@shadowrobot.com> References: <4B38DC54.6080406@technicalbloke.com> <4B3A14FE.8050205@shadowrobot.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 29, 2009 at 2:41 PM, Rich Walker wrote: > On 29/12/2009 10:30, JLMS wrote: > >> If you do something like that in your / filesystem, then yes, you will >> see all kind of weird behaviour. >> >> If you do that anywhere else, most likely it would only affect >> applications writing there, so just stop any applications using that >> filesystem prior to do what you suggest. > > We have regular fun from /var filling up. Typical symptom is that you > can't log-in from kdm/gdm - it accepts the password, but fails to start > your desktop... > > As a result, now /var/tmp is usually tmpfs, and /var/log in a separate > partition. /var/tmp is supposed to be persistent between boots, I have seen some dumb applications wanting to find something there to function properly, so beware :-) From rw at shadowrobot.com Tue Dec 29 15:36:43 2009 From: rw at shadowrobot.com (Rich Walker) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2009 15:36:43 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Wiping free space. In-Reply-To: References: <4B38DC54.6080406@technicalbloke.com> <4B3A14FE.8050205@shadowrobot.com> Message-ID: <4B3A220B.6020402@shadowrobot.com> On 29/12/2009 15:22, JLMS wrote: > /var/tmp is supposed to be persistent between boots, I have seen some > dumb applications wanting to find something there to function > properly, so beware :-) *sound of head banging on desk* -- rich walker | Shadow Robot Company | rw at shadowrobot.com managing director 251 Liverpool Road | skype: rich_at_shadow need a Hand? London N1 1LX | +44 20 7700 2487 http://www.shadowrobot.com/hand/ @shadowrobot From essuu at ourshack.com Tue Dec 29 15:42:11 2009 From: essuu at ourshack.com (Simon Wilcox) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2009 15:42:11 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Wiping free space. In-Reply-To: <4B3A220B.6020402@shadowrobot.com> References: <4B38DC54.6080406@technicalbloke.com> <4B3A14FE.8050205@shadowrobot.com> <4B3A220B.6020402@shadowrobot.com> Message-ID: <4B3A2353.6030500@ourshack.com> On 29/12/09 15:36, Rich Walker wrote: > On 29/12/2009 15:22, JLMS wrote: > >> /var/tmp is supposed to be persistent between boots, I have seen some >> dumb applications wanting to find something there to function >> properly, so beware :-) > > *sound of head banging on desk* It's defined that way in the FHS: http://www.pathname.com/fhs/pub/fhs-2.3.html#VARTMPTEMPORARYFILESPRESERVEDBETWEE What was that saying about the great thing about standards ? S. From rw at shadowrobot.com Tue Dec 29 15:59:55 2009 From: rw at shadowrobot.com (Rich Walker) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2009 15:59:55 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Wiping free space. In-Reply-To: <4B3A2353.6030500@ourshack.com> References: <4B38DC54.6080406@technicalbloke.com> <4B3A14FE.8050205@shadowrobot.com> <4B3A220B.6020402@shadowrobot.com> <4B3A2353.6030500@ourshack.com> Message-ID: <4B3A277B.20403@shadowrobot.com> On 29/12/2009 15:42, Simon Wilcox wrote: > On 29/12/09 15:36, Rich Walker wrote: >> On 29/12/2009 15:22, JLMS wrote: >> >>> /var/tmp is supposed to be persistent between boots, I have seen some >>> dumb applications wanting to find something there to function >>> properly, so beware :-) >> >> *sound of head banging on desk* > > It's defined that way in the FHS: > > http://www.pathname.com/fhs/pub/fhs-2.3.html#VARTMPTEMPORARYFILESPRESERVEDBETWEE > > What was that saying about the great thing about standards ? That's fair enough then. Big problem we were/are having was updatedb uses it for the database during rebuild. And tends to fill the tree... cheers, Rich. -- rich walker | Shadow Robot Company | rw at shadowrobot.com managing director 251 Liverpool Road | skype: rich_at_shadow need a Hand? London N1 1LX | +44 20 7700 2487 http://www.shadowrobot.com/hand/ @shadowrobot From rich at annexia.org Tue Dec 29 16:08:49 2009 From: rich at annexia.org (Richard Jones) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2009 16:08:49 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Wiping free space. In-Reply-To: <4B3A2353.6030500@ourshack.com> References: <4B38DC54.6080406@technicalbloke.com> <4B3A14FE.8050205@shadowrobot.com> <4B3A220B.6020402@shadowrobot.com> <4B3A2353.6030500@ourshack.com> Message-ID: <20091229160849.GA22035@annexia.org> On Tue, Dec 29, 2009 at 03:42:11PM +0000, Simon Wilcox wrote: > On 29/12/09 15:36, Rich Walker wrote: > > On 29/12/2009 15:22, JLMS wrote: > > > >> /var/tmp is supposed to be persistent between boots, I have seen some > >> dumb applications wanting to find something there to function > >> properly, so beware :-) > > > > *sound of head banging on desk* > > It's defined that way in the FHS: > > http://www.pathname.com/fhs/pub/fhs-2.3.html#VARTMPTEMPORARYFILESPRESERVEDBETWEE Indeed, but no sane app should depend on this behaviour. 'rm -rf /var/tmp/*' is a perfectly valid thing for an admin to do if, say, /var/tmp is filling up and preventing the machine from booting. Apps should store cached data that they want to be persistent somewhere else, like /var/cache (still allowing the admin to delete it) or /var/lib. Rich. -- Richard Jones Red Hat From addw at phcomp.co.uk Tue Dec 29 16:12:22 2009 From: addw at phcomp.co.uk (Alain Williams) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2009 16:12:22 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Wiping free space. In-Reply-To: <20091229160849.GA22035@annexia.org> References: <4B38DC54.6080406@technicalbloke.com> <4B3A14FE.8050205@shadowrobot.com> <4B3A220B.6020402@shadowrobot.com> <4B3A2353.6030500@ourshack.com> <20091229160849.GA22035@annexia.org> Message-ID: <20091229161222.GR4329@phcomp.co.uk> On Tue, Dec 29, 2009 at 04:08:49PM +0000, Richard Jones wrote: > On Tue, Dec 29, 2009 at 03:42:11PM +0000, Simon Wilcox wrote: > > On 29/12/09 15:36, Rich Walker wrote: > > > On 29/12/2009 15:22, JLMS wrote: > > > > > >> /var/tmp is supposed to be persistent between boots, I have seen some > > >> dumb applications wanting to find something there to function > > >> properly, so beware :-) > > > > > > *sound of head banging on desk* > > > > It's defined that way in the FHS: > > > > http://www.pathname.com/fhs/pub/fhs-2.3.html#VARTMPTEMPORARYFILESPRESERVEDBETWEE > > Indeed, but no sane app should depend on this behaviour. > > 'rm -rf /var/tmp/*' is a perfectly valid thing for an admin to do if, > say, /var/tmp is filling up and preventing the machine from booting. If you don't know what is running, this will remove stuff more than 1 hour old: find /var/tmp -mmin +60 | xargs rm -f > Apps should store cached data that they want to be persistent > somewhere else, like /var/cache (still allowing the admin to delete > it) or /var/lib. -- Alain Williams Linux/GNU Consultant - Mail systems, Web sites, Networking, Programmer, IT Lecturer. +44 (0) 787 668 0256 http://www.phcomp.co.uk/ Parliament Hill Computers Ltd. Registration Information: http://www.phcomp.co.uk/contact.php Past chairman of UKUUG: http://www.ukuug.org/ #include From general_email at technicalbloke.com Tue Dec 29 18:29:24 2009 From: general_email at technicalbloke.com (general_email at technicalbloke.com) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2009 18:29:24 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Wiping free space. In-Reply-To: References: <4B38DC54.6080406@technicalbloke.com> Message-ID: <4B3A4A84.8090005@technicalbloke.com> JLMS wrote: > On Mon, Dec 28, 2009 at 4:27 PM, general_email at technicalbloke.com > wrote: > > > >> b) AFAIK, files are block aligned so files which don't divide perfectly >> into the block size may have space at the very end of that the OS >> doesn't regard as free. >> >> Are the above conerns legitimate or just here-say? If the former are >> there any apps I would find in the big 3 repos that overwrite unused >> space while mitigating the above? >> >> > > > My main concern would be why to do all this at all. > > If the data is so sensitive then backup your file systems, clean the > disk properly (using DBAN or something similar) or destroy it (if it > is old you can get a cheap replacement easily, if it is new, it will > cost you relatively little to get a newer, bigger disk), and recover > your system from the backups. > I agree in most use cases there is a better alternative such as whole disk encryption and offline wiping a la dban. I was just curious if this can be accomplished in place to a reasonable degree too. Scrub (mentioned by RJ earlier, thanks :) seems good enough to prevent recovery of files and their names on non-journaled filesystems, although it does not clean any journal data. Although that might still leave a fair chunk of data that digital forensics analysts could retrieve evidence from it looks good enough for day to day privacy on systems where encryption / full disk wiping isn't an option. Roger. From mark at markpreston.co.uk Tue Dec 29 23:12:24 2009 From: mark at markpreston.co.uk (Mark Preston) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2009 23:12:24 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Home sweet home Message-ID: <20091229231224.7b6cc164@mnp> John G Walker wrote inter alia: > First, how do I determine what partitions I have. In particular, I'd > like to make sure I'm mounting the correct partition. There must be > commands to list partitions and partition contents, but I've never > come across them. I can't possibly see how a professional sysadmin > could work without these. > > Secondly, since I'll end up with a spare partition, is there anything > useful I could keep there in the long run, once the data has been > moved? Anything that the collective experience of the list suggests > would be useful to keep separate as well as /home? Hi John, df will show the mounted partitions: Filesystem 1K-blocks Used Available Use% Mounted on /dev/sda1 946607648 3393348 895129360 1% / tmpfs 1677724 0 1677724 0% /lib/init/rw varrun 1677724 128 1677596 1% /var/run varlock 1677724 0 1677724 0% /var/lock udev 1677724 196 1677528 1% /dev tmpfs 1677724 0 1677724 0% /dev/shm lrm 1677724 2192 1675532 1% /lib/modules/2.6.28-13-g sudo fdisk -l gives amongst other things: Device Boot Start End Blocks Id System /dev/sda1 * 1 119726 961699063+ 83 Linux /dev/sda2 119727 121601 15060937+ 5 Extended /dev/sda5 120379 121601 9823716 82 Linux swap / Solaris /dev/sda6 120053 120356 2441817 83 Linux /dev/sda7 120357 120378 176683+ 82 Linux swap / Solaris /dev/sda8 119727 120030 2441817 83 Linux /dev/sda9 120031 120052 176683+ 82 Linux swap / Solaris Partition table entries are not in disk order Disk /dev/sdb: 400.0 GB, 400088457216 bytes 255 heads, 63 sectors/track, 48641 cylinders Units = cylinders of 16065 * 512 = 8225280 bytes Disk identifier: 0x000bd67d Device Boot Start End Blocks Id System /dev/sdb1 * 1 7903 63480816 83 Linux /dev/sdb2 7904 8390 3911827+ 82 Linux swap / Solaris /dev/sdb3 8391 48641 323316157+ 83 Linux Thus fdisk -l shows unmounted partitions such as /dev/sdb1 To mount an unmounted partition: As root # mkdir /media/sdb1 then # mount /dev/sdb1 /media/sdb1 df will then show that the partition is mounted: /dev/sdb1 62483396 17687752 41621604 30% /media/sdb1 With the above method you should then be able to browse both your old and new home partitions with a file manager. Regards, Mark From chrisbell at 3966.ukfsn.org Wed Dec 30 10:19:12 2009 From: chrisbell at 3966.ukfsn.org (Chris Bell) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2009 10:19:12 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Gllug] Technology and UK Education Message-ID: Hello, If anyone is interested in Technology and UK education, there is a large annual exhibition at Olympia. Free passes are normally available either online or at the door (fill in a questionnaire), although schoolchildren are not admitted unless they are working on one of the stands. Details: BETT 2010 - Welcome to BETT online -- Chris Bell www.chrisbell.org.uk (was www.overview.demon.co.uk) Microsoft sells you Windows ... Linux gives you the whole house. From isabell121 at gmail.com Wed Dec 30 10:22:38 2009 From: isabell121 at gmail.com (Isabell Long) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2009 10:22:38 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Technology and UK Education In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20091230102237.GB3431@vps.achtung-outrage.com> On Wed, Dec 30, 2009 at 10:19:12AM +0000, Chris Bell wrote: > Hello, > If anyone is interested in Technology and UK education, there is a large > annual exhibition at Olympia. Free passes are normally available either > online or at the door (fill in a questionnaire), although schoolchildren are > not admitted unless they are working on one of the stands. Details: > > BETT 2010 - Welcome to BETT online Thank you for this. Why oh why am I still in full time education?! It looks very good! -- Regards, Isabell Long [[User:Isabell121]] on all public Wikimedia projects Freenode Community Co-Ordinator - issyl0 on irc.freenode.net PGP Key ID: 0xEB83C2BD -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 835 bytes Desc: Digital signature Url : http://lists.gllug.org.uk/pipermail/gllug/attachments/20091230/4b37c5ed/attachment.pgp From chrisbell at 3966.ukfsn.org Wed Dec 30 11:01:31 2009 From: chrisbell at 3966.ukfsn.org (Chris Bell) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2009 11:01:31 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Gllug] Technology and UK Education In-Reply-To: <20091230102237.GB3431@vps.achtung-outrage.com> Message-ID: On Wed 30 Dec, Isabell Long wrote: > > Thank you for this. Why oh why am I still in full time education?! It looks very good! > It normally fills at least a couple of exhibition halls and includes areas dedicated to individual topics such as special needs. It used to be dominated by Acorn, then Microsoft, but Apple were beginning to make progress. There are normally at least three stands run by government education departments. There has been a growing tendency to stand back from insisting on anything specific, but many representatives appeared to be oblivious to anything other than "the norm". Last January I asked a few people what they knew about Unix and FOSS (by description rather than name) but was generally met by totally blank looks. I asked how individual teachers were expected to find out what was available, and was told that it was the job of the Universities (such as Kent who provide www.mirrorservice.org) to contact the teachers. I offered a few copies of Knoppix but was met by general disinterest. Go and make your opinions known. -- Chris Bell www.chrisbell.org.uk (was www.overview.demon.co.uk) Microsoft sells you Windows ... Linux gives you the whole house. From chrisbell at 3966.ukfsn.org Wed Dec 30 12:02:03 2009 From: chrisbell at 3966.ukfsn.org (Chris Bell) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2009 12:02:03 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Gllug] Technology and UK Education In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed 30 Dec, Chris Bell wrote: > > There are normally at least three stands run by government education > departments. There has been a growing tendency to stand back from insisting > on anything specific, but many representatives appeared to be oblivious to > anything other than "the norm". I was told that if anyone wished to provide a service to or for schools it is now a government requirement that they should bid for a total comprehensive contract, providing everything from building and building maintenance services to waste management as well as educational facilities. Start by finding a plumber, an electrician, a bricklayer, and a roofer. -- Chris Bell www.chrisbell.org.uk (was www.overview.demon.co.uk) Microsoft sells you Windows ... Linux gives you the whole house. From walter.stanish at saffrondigital.com Wed Dec 30 12:15:11 2009 From: walter.stanish at saffrondigital.com (Walter Stanish) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2009 12:15:11 -0000 Subject: [Gllug] Technology and UK Education In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > I was told that if anyone wished to provide a service to or for schools > it is now a government requirement that they should bid for a total > comprehensive contract, providing everything from building and building > maintenance services to waste management as well as educational facilities. > Start by finding a plumber, an electrician, a bricklayer, and a roofer. I'm not sure if you have them in this country but in Australia there's a sort of 'parent and citizen' group associated with each government school which has some degree of lobbying power as the representative body of the local community in school administrative affairs. If one were to present alternatives to costlier options and/or donate services through such a group, then it may provide a viable legal route around the oppressive, innovation stifling, centralised bureaucratic regime that you describe. - Walter From martin at hinterlands.org Wed Dec 30 12:37:23 2009 From: martin at hinterlands.org (Martin A. Brooks) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2009 12:37:23 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Technology and UK Education In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B3B4983.4080902@hinterlands.org> On 30/12/2009 12:15, Walter Stanish wrote: >> I was told that if anyone wished to provide a service to or for schools >> it is now a government requirement that they should bid for a total >> comprehensive contract, providing everything from building and building >> maintenance services to waste management as well as educational facilities. >> Start by finding a plumber, an electrician, a bricklayer, and a roofer. > > I'm not sure if you have them in this country but in Australia there's a > sort of 'parent and citizen' group associated with each government school > which has some degree of lobbying power as the representative body of the > local community in school administrative affairs. We have the Parent Teacher Association. http://www.pta.org/ From chrisbell at 3966.ukfsn.org Wed Dec 30 12:48:49 2009 From: chrisbell at 3966.ukfsn.org (Chris Bell) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2009 12:48:49 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Gllug] Technology and UK Education In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed 30 Dec, Walter Stanish wrote: > > I'm not sure if you have them in this country but in Australia there's a > sort of 'parent and citizen' group associated with each government school > which has some degree of lobbying power as the representative body of the > local community in school administrative affairs. > > If one were to present alternatives to costlier options and/or donate > services through such a group, then it may provide a viable legal route > around the oppressive, innovation stifling, centralised bureaucratic > regime that you describe. > > - Walter It was the introduction of parent governors, many of whom had their own business interests, that marked a change from general education about computing and computer techniques to specific education about using the latest Microsoft offering because it took some effort from employers to teach the use of packages such as Microsoft Word. A few years ago I was asked to attend a small discission group at BETT to ascertain the views of visitors. One teacher said that she had just been told that she had been made head of the IT department, knew nothing about the subject, so had come along to find out. I understand that some schools are interested, subject to financial restrictions. I have spemt some time trying to get some sense out of my local council, but had to start by trying to educate the education department. -- Chris Bell www.chrisbell.org.uk (was www.overview.demon.co.uk) Microsoft sells you Windows ... Linux gives you the whole house. From walter.stanish at saffrondigital.com Wed Dec 30 13:14:27 2009 From: walter.stanish at saffrondigital.com (Walter Stanish) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2009 13:14:27 -0000 Subject: [Gllug] Technology and UK Education In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > A few years ago I was asked to attend a small discission group at BETT to > ascertain the views of visitors. One teacher said that she had just been > told that she had been made head of the IT department, knew nothing about > the subject, so had come along to find out. These people are excellent candidates for FOSS adoption, since they can often look past cosmetic / habitual concerns and see the real monetary, maintenance and flexibility gains from FOSS offerings. Perhaps a good GLLUG project could be building a representative (diskless?) Linux based solution for schools to present at the next BETT, since there's not much time left before the show this year. The solution could highlight things like ease of maintenance, flexibility, hardware and TCO savings vs. an equivalent commercial solution. Particularly if a small group were to donate time for the cause, I am sure that we could achieve excellent results with such a presentation, and provide the work to groups elsewhere assist with similar efforts. It may be possible to involve computing and education students at a nearby university to guarantee long-term viability to a trial rollout. Getting a university involved would have the secondary benefit that their opinions carry some weight against commercial marketeers when it comes to the immense value of increased software literacy later in life (eg: most tertiary education, and almost any modern/academic/ technical discipline). (IMHO FOSS is simply a superior technical platform for low-cost teaching, since you can find tools and techniques to teach almost anything within computing without having to shell out for umpteen pieces of software or employ a team of full time network maintenance people. But that's preaching to the choir...) I'm not a UK citizen and have very little free time but I'd be willing to donate to such a cause. I for one would also be willing to lobby my employer to donate some of my time to teaching specific aspects of computing to interested secondary students on such a platform, and could definitely find some time regardless. I don't use it personally but it would seem that Ubuntu's globalised / ease of use / education-oriented philosophy would place them as a strong potential partner and source of recruitment for such a project. In short, anyone in the group wishing to carry such an idea forward would have my full support. It shouldn't take much to get things rolling.... perhaps start a wiki, autocratically choose a basis for the project so as to avoid time- consuming pontification (eg: Ubuntu. I don't use it personally but I can see the benefits it would offer for such a project), and then research and recruit a little. With a 12 month time period, I'm sure we could present something extremely polished that would turn heads. - Walter From bap at shrdlu.com Wed Dec 30 13:45:56 2009 From: bap at shrdlu.com (Bernard Peek) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2009 13:45:56 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Technology and UK Education In-Reply-To: <4B3B4983.4080902@hinterlands.org> References: <4B3B4983.4080902@hinterlands.org> Message-ID: <4B3B5994.5050908@shrdlu.com> On 30/12/2009 12:37, Martin A. Brooks wrote: > On 30/12/2009 12:15, Walter Stanish wrote: > >>> I was told that if anyone wished to provide a service to or for schools >>> it is now a government requirement that they should bid for a total >>> comprehensive contract, providing everything from building and building >>> maintenance services to waste management as well as educational facilities. >>> Start by finding a plumber, an electrician, a bricklayer, and a roofer. >>> >> I'm not sure if you have them in this country but in Australia there's a >> sort of 'parent and citizen' group associated with each government school >> which has some degree of lobbying power as the representative body of the >> local community in school administrative affairs. >> > We have the Parent Teacher Association. > > PTAs are a possible route into schools. for FOSS. They do a lot of fundraising and are likely to be sympathetic to any suggestions for saving money. They may have people with some knowledge of Linux, although that's a long shot. All of them would appreciate some tech-savvy volunteers. Or any volunteers. There's another route. Most schools use interactive whiteboards, often in every classroom. The market-leader is Smartboards distributed in the UK by Steljes (www.steljes.co.uk) The manufacturer Smart (http://smarttech.com/) does have some Linux driver software but Steljes don't have the resources (or as far as I know the will) to support it in the UK. FOSS will get nowhere in UK schools unless all of the major interactive whiteboard brands have adequate Linux support. It's a cool technology and hasn't really penetrated much outside of the education sector in the UK. -- bap at shrdlu.com From martin at hinterlands.org Wed Dec 30 14:14:13 2009 From: martin at hinterlands.org (Martin A. Brooks) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2009 14:14:13 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Technology and UK Education In-Reply-To: <4B3B5994.5050908@shrdlu.com> References: <4B3B4983.4080902@hinterlands.org> <4B3B5994.5050908@shrdlu.com> Message-ID: <4B3B6035.4070504@hinterlands.org> On 30/12/2009 13:45, Bernard Peek wrote: > PTAs are a possible route into schools. for FOSS. I can tell you from personal experience that pitching FOSS or FOSS-based products and services to education is really hard work. It took literally months to get a technology provider for an LEA (MEWAN)to sign up to antibodyMX, and that was via a direct route; I didn't have to go via their front door. It has been well worth the time invested, though and I know that they have done some internal newsletters mentioning their successful use of a FOSS-based service. From chrisbell at 3966.ukfsn.org Wed Dec 30 14:35:02 2009 From: chrisbell at 3966.ukfsn.org (Chris Bell) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2009 14:35:02 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Gllug] Technology and UK Education In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed 30 Dec, Walter Stanish wrote: > > > With a 12 month time period, I'm sure we could present something > extremely polished that would turn heads. > > - Walter There are already education projects, including educational versions of Deboan and Ubuntu. I am trying to get local facilities through my local Ealing Council and the Park Royal Partnership, and we can organise practical sessions through GLLUG. The reactions from a local on-line forum are that too many people are worried that they would not be able to cope with anything technical. One of my local councillors explained that too many people employed by the council are temps, too many people employed by the council are politically correct otherwise unemployable, and too many people employed by the council move on as soon as they have half a clue about their job and are then replaced by other untrained individuals. This makes it very difficult for councillors, who are not considered to be council staff, to get anything done. -- Chris Bell www.chrisbell.org.uk (was www.overview.demon.co.uk) Microsoft sells you Windows ... Linux gives you the whole house. From chrisbell at 3966.ukfsn.org Wed Dec 30 14:48:59 2009 From: chrisbell at 3966.ukfsn.org (Chris Bell) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2009 14:48:59 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Gllug] Technology and UK Education In-Reply-To: <4B3B6035.4070504@hinterlands.org> Message-ID: On Wed 30 Dec, Martin A. Brooks wrote: > > On 30/12/2009 13:45, Bernard Peek wrote: > > PTAs are a possible route into schools. for FOSS. > > I can tell you from personal experience that pitching FOSS or FOSS-based > products and services to education is really hard work. > > It took literally months to get a technology provider for an LEA > (MEWAN)to sign up to antibodyMX, and that was via a direct route; I > didn't have to go via their front door. It has been well worth the time > invested, though and I know that they have done some internal > newsletters mentioning their successful use of a FOSS-based service. > I received a reply from the council Director Business Services Group that "Some councols, notably Camden, are reporting significant efficiencies from open source developments" and Ealing were actually using Solaris and Linux, but they were worried about the costs of retraining staff, although there was no hint that the council might wish to get involved in any educational project. -- Chris Bell www.chrisbell.org.uk (was www.overview.demon.co.uk) Microsoft sells you Windows ... Linux gives you the whole house. From psicoterapia at hotmail.com Wed Dec 30 23:02:04 2009 From: psicoterapia at hotmail.com (silver) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2009 23:02:04 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] Technology and UK Education In-Reply-To: References: , , Message-ID: Hi everybody I am trying to be a Linux user. I really love possibility this IT use approach has. So, "Linux based solutions for schools", sounds like rather a great project. I am working on my English, yet, but I am up for being of help in whatever this matter required. Indeed there are a lot of alternatives but most are spread out along the net. Just if we could arrange e.g a blog or site where currently developing projects, ideas, were shown together and provided with a propper description, summary, of course links, etc. would be a stage for more serious things in the short future. Here you have a link to an interesting solution for schools:http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Sugar_on_a_Stick And, here the notice for a next meeting they have.http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Sugar_on_a_Stick/Meetings#Upcoming Sylver _________________________________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.gllug.org.uk/pipermail/gllug/attachments/20091230/c099fe7d/attachment.htm From chrisbell at 3966.ukfsn.org Thu Dec 31 09:15:40 2009 From: chrisbell at 3966.ukfsn.org (Chris Bell) Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2009 09:15:40 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Gllug] Technology and UK Education In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed 30 Dec, silver wrote: > Here you have a link to an interesting solution for schools: > http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Sugar_on_a_Stick Unfortunately the first thing to do is persuade people to even take a look at FOSS. Linux discs are included with computer magazines. I have given away literally hundreds of Knoppix discs which obviously cost far less than memory sticks. It is much easier to boot more computers from Knoppix than a memory stick. I am sure that the vast majority never see another computer, although they are appreciated by the few people who have tried them. A local laptop repair company has placed a Debian/KDE machine in their customer reception area so that customers can enter details and view progress via the company website, and that has generated more obvious interest than the Knoppix discs, once the customers are told that it is not running Microsoft. -- Chris Bell www.chrisbell.org.uk (was www.overview.demon.co.uk) Microsoft sells you Windows ... Linux gives you the whole house. From nix at esperi.org.uk Thu Dec 31 23:21:04 2009 From: nix at esperi.org.uk (Nix) Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2009 23:21:04 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] LyX/TeX question In-Reply-To: <200912272210.nBRMA0jk032735@leto.astradyne.corp> (Tethys's message of "Sun, 27 Dec 2009 22:10:00 +0000") References: <1261936081.21057.2.camel@bossclass> <200912271812.nBRICdIZ030844@leto.astradyne.corp> <87y6ko18po.fsf@spindle.srvr.nix> <200912272210.nBRMA0jk032735@leto.astradyne.corp> Message-ID: <87ocleraqn.fsf@spindle.srvr.nix> On 27 Dec 2009, Tethys stated: > Nix writes: > >>You could do it in xypic too, but xypic has the most rebarbative syntax >>imaginable, so it's perhaps best to look for something else. > > You've previously made the same claim about sendmail.cf, and you can't > have it both ways. Unless you're going to call it a dead heat between > the two, that is :-) A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds. (i.e., don't get in the way of my hyperbolic self-contradiction, boyo.) I mean, here's an example, from chapter 3 of the user's guide: \xymatrix{ *=0{\bullet} \ar@/^/[dr]!U|1 \ar@/^/[drr]!U|2 \ar@/^/[drrr]!U|3 \\ &*+[F]\txt{x} &*+[F]\txt{x\\x} &*+[F]\txt{x\\x\\x} } That typesets this: . Sane syntax? Not hardly. From nix at esperi.org.uk Thu Dec 31 23:25:04 2009 From: nix at esperi.org.uk (Nix) Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2009 23:25:04 +0000 Subject: [Gllug] LyX/TeX question In-Reply-To: <18b20d490912280414q7a509148j9a70f350ba9dd496@mail.gmail.com> (Roger Whittaker's message of "Mon, 28 Dec 2009 12:14:26 +0000") References: <1261936081.21057.2.camel@bossclass> <18b20d490912280414q7a509148j9a70f350ba9dd496@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <87k4w2rajz.fsf@spindle.srvr.nix> On 28 Dec 2009, Roger Whittaker stated: > On Sun, Dec 27, 2009 at 5:48 PM, Adrian McMenamin > wrote: >> I need to draw things such as finite automata, logic gates, boolean >> equations etc >> >> Can anyone recommend places to look for the appropriate extensions for >> TeX - or as it is a bit simpler - LyX? > > TikZ can do some very nice things: Oh that looks really nice. Thanks for the pointer.