From benjamin at py-soft.co.uk  Wed Oct  1 22:47:53 2008
From: benjamin at py-soft.co.uk (Benjamin Donnachie)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 22:47:53 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] SATA card recommendations.
Message-ID: <732076a80810011447i10fbe235ub0a228dd678d9e0e@mail.gmail.com>

I'd be grateful for recommendations for inexpensive PCI SATA cards
that work fully under Linux AND support 1TB drives.

The version / distro is irrelevant as I can upgrade as required.  So
far I only seem to find cards that satisfy only one of the criteria...
:-/

Many thanks,

Ben

From john at sinodun.org.uk  Thu Oct  2 06:58:45 2008
From: john at sinodun.org.uk (John Winters)
Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2008 06:58:45 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] SATA card recommendations.
In-Reply-To: <732076a80810011447i10fbe235ub0a228dd678d9e0e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <732076a80810011447i10fbe235ub0a228dd678d9e0e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <48E46315.7040305@sinodun.org.uk>

Benjamin Donnachie wrote:
> I'd be grateful for recommendations for inexpensive PCI SATA cards
> that work fully under Linux AND support 1TB drives.

Errrk!  Does this mean that the hardware/firmware/interface designers
have put artificial limits on drive size again!?!  Don't they ever
learn?  How many times is it now?

John

From gllug at eco.li  Thu Oct  2 10:32:44 2008
From: gllug at eco.li (Dan Kolb)
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 10:32:44 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] SATA card recommendations.
In-Reply-To: <48E46315.7040305@sinodun.org.uk>
References: <732076a80810011447i10fbe235ub0a228dd678d9e0e@mail.gmail.com>
	<48E46315.7040305@sinodun.org.uk>
Message-ID: <20081002093244.GP7492@hades.eco.li>

On Thu, Oct 02, 2008 at 06:58:45AM +0100, John Winters wrote:
> Benjamin Donnachie wrote:
> > I'd be grateful for recommendations for inexpensive PCI SATA cards
> > that work fully under Linux AND support 1TB drives.
> 
> Errrk!  Does this mean that the hardware/firmware/interface designers
> have put artificial limits on drive size again!?!  Don't they ever
> learn?  How many times is it now?

But surely no-one would need a disk larger than 512MB^W2GB, err, 32GB, um, 1TB!


-- 
ROMEO: Courage, man; the hurt cannot be much.
MERCUTIO: No, 'tis not so deep as a well, nor so wide as a church-
	door; but 'tis enough, 'twill serve.

From peterachilds at gmail.com  Thu Oct  2 11:30:13 2008
From: peterachilds at gmail.com (Peter Childs)
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 11:30:13 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] SATA card recommendations.
In-Reply-To: <20081002093244.GP7492@hades.eco.li>
References: <732076a80810011447i10fbe235ub0a228dd678d9e0e@mail.gmail.com>
	<48E46315.7040305@sinodun.org.uk> <20081002093244.GP7492@hades.eco.li>
Message-ID: <a2de01dd0810020330l16445834yf82c20bfdfd371e2@mail.gmail.com>

2008/10/2 Dan Kolb <gllug at eco.li>:
> On Thu, Oct 02, 2008 at 06:58:45AM +0100, John Winters wrote:
>> Benjamin Donnachie wrote:
>> > I'd be grateful for recommendations for inexpensive PCI SATA cards
>> > that work fully under Linux AND support 1TB drives.
>>
>> Errrk!  Does this mean that the hardware/firmware/interface designers
>> have put artificial limits on drive size again!?!  Don't they ever
>> learn?  How many times is it now?
>
> But surely no-one would need a disk larger than 512MB^W2GB, err, 32GB, um, 1TB!
>

16Mb maximum partition size now how shall I partition this 20Mb SCSI
driver, Now those were the days.

Regards

Peter.

From farnsaw at stonedoor.com  Thu Oct  2 13:31:12 2008
From: farnsaw at stonedoor.com (Andrew Farnsworth)
Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2008 08:31:12 -0400
Subject: [Gllug] SATA card recommendations.
Message-ID: <28525.1222950672@stonedoor.com>

On Thu Oct  2  1:58 , John Winters <john at sinodun.org.uk> sent:

>Benjamin Donnachie wrote:
>> I'd be grateful for recommendations for inexpensive PCI SATA cards
>> that work fully under Linux AND support 1TB drives.
>
>Errrk!  Does this mean that the hardware/firmware/interface designers
>have put artificial limits on drive size again!?!  Don't they ever
>learn?  How many times is it now?

There will always be "Artificial Limits" in cases like these.  As long as we
limit the address space to a certain number of bits, be it 8, 16, 20, 30, 32, or
64 bits, there will be a limit.  All we can do is try to make the limits so large
we won't reach them any time soon.  Like IPv6... rather than going from 32 bit
for IPv4 up to 64 bits and risking hitting the wall again, they decided to jump
right to 128 bits.  This was a good choice because using 128 bits as an unsigned
integer, you can use numbers from zero up to
340,282,366,920,938,463,463,374,607,431,768,211,456 (i.e. 2^128).  If you divide
340,282,366,920,938,463,463,374,607,431,768,211,456 by 790,653,726,720,000,000
(the approximate surface area of the earth in square inches) that implies you can
assign over 3,700,000,000,000,000,000,000 addresses per square inch of the
earth's surface. That should be enough addresses for most requirements, even if
you stack those servers sky high.

Andy

From rich at annexia.org  Thu Oct  2 19:01:02 2008
From: rich at annexia.org (Richard Jones)
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 19:01:02 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] SATA card recommendations.
In-Reply-To: <28525.1222950672@stonedoor.com>
References: <28525.1222950672@stonedoor.com>
Message-ID: <20081002180102.GA28334@annexia.org>

On Thu, Oct 02, 2008 at 08:31:12AM -0400, Andrew Farnsworth wrote:
> Like IPv6... rather than going from 32 bit for IPv4 up to 64 bits
> and risking hitting the wall again, they decided to jump right to
> 128 bits.  This was a good choice because using 128 bits as an
> unsigned integer, you can use numbers from zero up to
[more twaddle deleted]

IPv6 gives most people a /64 address, which means that there are
really 2^64 addresses available.  Still quite a lot, but unfortunately
the decision to route by prefix reduces the effective address space
still further.

That's not to say that IPv6 isn't a big improvement over IPv4, but if
you are going to argue it based on comments about there being a
bajillion addresses per square inch of the earth or whatever, you're
just going to come across as someone who doesn't understand it.

Rich.

-- 
Richard Jones
Red Hat

From nix at esperi.org.uk  Thu Oct  2 21:22:49 2008
From: nix at esperi.org.uk (Nix)
Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2008 21:22:49 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] Caching youtube videos
In-Reply-To: <b6131fdc0809290308s2f3472bek7482673159a586d1@mail.gmail.com>
	(Stephen Nelson-Smith's message of "Mon,
	29 Sep 2008 11:08:10 +0100")
References: <1222512425.6919.2.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<b6131fdc0809290308s2f3472bek7482673159a586d1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <87skrelpba.fsf@hades.wkstn.nix>

On 29 Sep 2008, Stephen Nelson-Smith stated:

> Hi,
>
> On Sat, Sep 27, 2008 at 11:47 AM, Adrian McMenamin
> <adrian at newgolddream.dyndns.info> wrote:
>
>> But that question mark means that Squid won't cache it
>
> That has nothing to do with it at all.
>
> Squid doesn't cache dynamic content out of the box.  You need to make
> it.  Youtube also make life difficult in ways which Squid doesn't
> handle out of the box.  This is well documented on the squid wiki.

Of course this just goes to show that you should be using Polipo instead
;}

-- 
`Not even vi uses vi key bindings for its command line.' --- PdS

From nix at esperi.org.uk  Thu Oct  2 21:24:10 2008
From: nix at esperi.org.uk (Nix)
Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2008 21:24:10 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] VACANCY: Unix System Administrator (Part Time, Temp)
In-Reply-To: <d6736b830809290835v6a8c88c7r3f238aaa5b7575f9@mail.gmail.com>
	(Jose Luis Martinez's message of "Mon,
	29 Sep 2008 10:35:23 -0500")
References: <20080929143216.GB11847@salako>
	<d6736b830809290832x4ffc0f69ke1597ba6306e9d17@mail.gmail.com>
	<d6736b830809290835v6a8c88c7r3f238aaa5b7575f9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <87od22lp91.fsf@hades.wkstn.nix>

On 29 Sep 2008, Jose Luis Martinez outgrape:

> Dear all,
>
> I do apologize.
>
> I am a bit jet-lagged :-}

Ah yes, exhaustion and jetlag from insane overtime. You're a sysadmin
all right. ;}

-- 
`Not even vi uses vi key bindings for its command line.' --- PdS

From cilius.victor at hchlv.com  Thu Oct  2 21:32:27 2008
From: cilius.victor at hchlv.com (cilius.victor at hchlv.com)
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 21:32:27 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] Cilius Victor is out of the office.
Message-ID: <OFF1CBAECD.C94F9D74-ON802574D6.0070D58E-802574D6.0070D58E@henleycentre.co.uk>


I will be out of the office starting  02/10/2008 and will not return until
08/10/2008.

I will respond to your message when I return.



Visit Henley Centre HeadlightVision at www.hchlv.com 
 
Henley Centre HeadlightVision
6 More London
Tooley Street
London
SE1 2QY

T: +44 (0)20 7955 1800
F: +44 (0)20 7955 1900
 
The information in this email is confidential and may be legally privileged. 

It is intended solely for the addressee. Access to this email by anyone else is unauthorized. If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution or any action taken or omitted to be taken in reliance on it, is prohibited and may be unlawful. 

When addressed to our clients any opinions or advice contained in this email are subject to the terms and conditions expressed in the governing Henley Centre HeadlightVision client engagement contract or letter.
















From GLLUG at getaroundtoit.co.uk  Thu Oct  2 21:39:01 2008
From: GLLUG at getaroundtoit.co.uk (David L Neil Mailing list a/c)
Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2008 21:39:01 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] Polipo - Was: Caching youtube videos
In-Reply-To: <87skrelpba.fsf@hades.wkstn.nix>
References: <1222512425.6919.2.camel@localhost.localdomain>	<b6131fdc0809290308s2f3472bek7482673159a586d1@mail.gmail.com>
	<87skrelpba.fsf@hades.wkstn.nix>
Message-ID: <48E53165.1010604@getaroundtoit.co.uk>

Nix wrote:
> Of course this just goes to show that you should be using Polipo instead
> ;}




Haven't come across this one before (which doesn't say a whole lot...).

Am playing with TOR and thus installed Privoxy.

Care to make any comment about Polipo cf Privoxy in such applications,
and maybe running it on a small network 'gateway' m/c so as to service a
number of TOR-ified FF browsers?

Regards,
=dn


From farnsaw at stonedoor.com  Thu Oct  2 22:53:19 2008
From: farnsaw at stonedoor.com (Andrew Farnsworth)
Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2008 17:53:19 -0400
Subject: [Gllug] SATA card recommendations.
In-Reply-To: <20081002180102.GA28334@annexia.org>
References: <28525.1222950672@stonedoor.com>
	<20081002180102.GA28334@annexia.org>
Message-ID: <48E542CF.1060801@stonedoor.com>

Richard Jones wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 02, 2008 at 08:31:12AM -0400, Andrew Farnsworth wrote:
>   
>> Like IPv6... rather than going from 32 bit for IPv4 up to 64 bits
>> and risking hitting the wall again, they decided to jump right to
>> 128 bits.  This was a good choice because using 128 bits as an
>> unsigned integer, you can use numbers from zero up to
>>     
> [more twaddle deleted]
>
> IPv6 gives most people a /64 address, which means that there are
> really 2^64 addresses available.  Still quite a lot, but unfortunately
> the decision to route by prefix reduces the effective address space
> still further.
>
> That's not to say that IPv6 isn't a big improvement over IPv4, but if
> you are going to argue it based on comments about there being a
> bajillion addresses per square inch of the earth or whatever, you're
> just going to come across as someone who doesn't understand it.
>   
On the one hand you are correct, on the other hand I am, on the gripping 
hand we both are.  If you are a company that can (and will) use a 
significant portion of the /64 address space you are assigned, then 
there is a huge benefit and the company will use "one" address in the 
remaining 64 bit address space instead of the thousands assigned out of 
the 32 bit address space of IPv4.  (Infamous last words here) This 
should be plenty for the near future.

Andy

From iain.dv at googlemail.com  Fri Oct  3 12:50:38 2008
From: iain.dv at googlemail.com (Iain Gray)
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 12:50:38 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] VACANCY: Production Support Engineer
Message-ID: <ae7180000810030450y6f39f296r68f6ae970ee9dbf4@mail.gmail.com>

The role is in a high profile games studio working in the network
gaming group production support team. The company is Sony Computer
Entertainment Europe working  within World Wide Studios London.
Working on SCEE produced PS3 games.
The studio is very centrally based (Oxford Circus) in excellent
offices with many benefits.

The job requires someone who is able to apply logical troubleshooting
skills to issues as well as being able to write and run load and
performance tuning tests and apply production rigor to games as they
progress from development to production.

As the role is open and there are 2 positions available the salary
range is also open and negotiable dependant on experience in the range
of 30 - 40k
Other benefits include:
Excellent pension and healthcare package
London weighting of Salary after probation (Currently 1900)
Excellent bonus scheme
12 free games a year
Free console
Great working atmosphere
Subsidised Restaurant and bar
Season Ticket loan
etc.

The role is in a small but rapidly expanding team at a very fluid time
for console games and online in particular so there are always
opportunities for career progression and advancement as well as solid
training opportunities.

Recruitment time is ASAP (as always) and process is:
Initial telephone interview
First f2f with tech test
Second interview

If anyone is interested in the role and would like more information
please contact me off list

=======================================================================

JOB DESCRIPTION:

The role is to become part of the Production Support team for the
online games application and to help support and develop the
application and the processes around moving games through development
to production. The candidate will have good linux skills and show
understanding of troubleshooting methods and problem resolution.

Duties and Responsibilities:

There are 3 main areas of responsibility in this role and an applicant
should show demonstrable capability in at least 2 of these.

1.Management of many workstreams and ability to keep up to date on
several ongoing tasks at once. The candidate should be used to
managing their own time and keeping a clear audit trail of where each
task is at.
2.Troubleshooting Issues by using networking, linux and application
knowledge to solve problems in a logical way.
3.Willingness to take one aspect of the many varied aspects of the
role and become the team expert. Possible areas are C/C++ Client Sim,
Java coding for load testing or PL/SQL development.

Skills and Experience:

Skills that are essential for this role is knowledge of/experience
with a selection from :
Unix (linux) system setup and administration.
Troubleshooting skills. A logical and methodical way of working
through a problem.
A good understanding of networks and networked applications
Perl scripting for task automation.
Oracle database connectivity and administration.
PL/SQL knowledge
Web server environments including but not limited to Apache Tomcat,
with particular reference to jsp/servlet engines
=======================================================================

From anthony.newman at ossified.net  Fri Oct  3 13:43:26 2008
From: anthony.newman at ossified.net (Anthony Newman)
Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2008 14:43:26 +0200
Subject: [Gllug] IPv6 (was SATA card recommendations.)
In-Reply-To: <48E542CF.1060801@stonedoor.com>
References: <28525.1222950672@stonedoor.com>	<20081002180102.GA28334@annexia.org>
	<48E542CF.1060801@stonedoor.com>
Message-ID: <48E6136E.9010403@ossified.net>

Andrew Farnsworth wrote:
> On the one hand you are correct, on the other hand I am, on the gripping 
> hand we both are.  If you are a company that can (and will) use a 
> significant portion of the /64 address space you are assigned, then 
> there is a huge benefit and the company will use "one" address in the 
> remaining 64 bit address space instead of the thousands assigned out of 
> the 32 bit address space of IPv4.  (Infamous last words here) This 
> should be plenty for the near future.

Realistically, IPv6 is not going to be used this way. Despite it being 
possible to use all of the addresses in a /64 given enough devices on a 
single network (ignoring for the moment that prefixes longer than /64 
are routable in principle), it likely that consumers will be handed /48 
or /56 blocks by their ISPs to simplify matters for everyone. We're 
still not going to run out :)


Ant

From A.ALZOLA at telefonica.net  Fri Oct  3 13:45:34 2008
From: A.ALZOLA at telefonica.net (A.ALZOLA at telefonica.net)
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 14:45:34 +0200 (MEST)
Subject: [Gllug] Polipo - Was: Caching youtube videos
Message-ID: <6173342.1223037934679.JavaMail.root@ctps7>

>Am playing with TOR and thus installed Privoxy.

Talking of which, I was wondering -- just how anonymous is a Tor connection in 
reality? I've read about the Metasploit people coming up with a method of 
tracing packets through a Tor network, but I believe that this only works if 
you are silly enough to have java connected while you browse. Is Tor 
anonymity a bit like PGP (i.e. Pretty Good Privacy only so long as someone 
doesn't have enough interest, money, and time to crack the key)? Does anyone 
on the list have an informed opinion? (... or am I opening a can of worms?)

Aarón
		 TERRA 

-->

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From tethys at gmail.com  Fri Oct  3 19:18:16 2008
From: tethys at gmail.com (- Tethys)
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 19:18:16 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] Launching applications at gnome-session startup
Message-ID: <264d99b00810031118q21d5a097o10cf031d12236f82@mail.gmail.com>

If I want to launch an application at login (effectively whenever
gnome-session starts), what's the approved way of doing that? I'm
running Fedora 9[1], and want to do some xrandr things whenever a
particular user logs in. I can't find anything on any of the menus,
and the documentation is woefully inadequate (as seems to be the case
for so much of the Linux desktop these days, sadly).

Can anyone point me in the right direction?

Tet

[1] Actually, this is on behalf of someone else. I wouldn't be caught
dead using GNOME (or KDE for that matter). I personally just stick
such things in ~/.Xclients. But that's not appropriate here.

-- 
Perl is like vise grips. You can do anything with it but it is the
wrong tool for every job. -- Bruce Eckel

From stan at saticed.me.uk  Fri Oct  3 19:42:20 2008
From: stan at saticed.me.uk (Tristan Hill)
Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2008 19:42:20 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] Launching applications at gnome-session startup
In-Reply-To: <264d99b00810031118q21d5a097o10cf031d12236f82@mail.gmail.com>
References: <264d99b00810031118q21d5a097o10cf031d12236f82@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1223059340.8224.1.camel@nimitz>

On Fri, 2008-10-03 at 19:18 +0100, - Tethys wrote:
> Can anyone point me in the right direction?

try system -> preferences -> sessions



From mblackmore at oxlug.org  Fri Oct  3 23:03:17 2008
From: mblackmore at oxlug.org (M.Blackmore)
Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2008 23:03:17 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] SATA card recommendations.
In-Reply-To: <20081002093244.GP7492@hades.eco.li>
References: <732076a80810011447i10fbe235ub0a228dd678d9e0e@mail.gmail.com>
	<48E46315.7040305@sinodun.org.uk> <20081002093244.GP7492@hades.eco.li>
Message-ID: <1223071397.6487.57.camel@malcolm-desktop-xpc>

On Thu, 2008-10-02 at 10:32 +0100, Dan Kolb wrote:
> 
> But surely no-one would need a disk larger 


You're but a young sprout Dan. Why I can remember in '73 when we
couldn't figure out what to do with 4 kilobyte of random access memory
nor how to fill up a 16 kilobyte 8" floppy disk... unimaginable space.


From gllug at lgeezer.net  Fri Oct  3 23:26:32 2008
From: gllug at lgeezer.net (Alistair Mann)
Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2008 23:26:32 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] SATA card recommendations.
In-Reply-To: <1223071397.6487.57.camel@malcolm-desktop-xpc>
References: <732076a80810011447i10fbe235ub0a228dd678d9e0e@mail.gmail.com>	<48E46315.7040305@sinodun.org.uk>
	<20081002093244.GP7492@hades.eco.li>
	<1223071397.6487.57.camel@malcolm-desktop-xpc>
Message-ID: <48E69C18.2010303@lgeezer.net>

M.Blackmore wrote:
> On Thu, 2008-10-02 at 10:32 +0100, Dan Kolb wrote:
>> But surely no-one would need a disk larger 
> 
> 
> You're but a young sprout Dan. Why I can remember in '73 when we
> couldn't figure out what to do with 4 kilobyte of random access memory
> nor how to fill up a 16 kilobyte 8" floppy disk... unimaginable space.

You had a k in front of your b? We only had bs, and then only 99 of them 
available to the user! Still good enough for a whumped-down version of 
the later Horace goes skiing...

ZX81 FTW!
-- 
Alistair Mann


From mark at markpreston.co.uk  Fri Oct  3 23:21:53 2008
From: mark at markpreston.co.uk (Mark Preston)
Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2008 23:21:53 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] Digit differences on PC keyboards and phones
Message-ID: <48E69B01.9050805@markpreston.co.uk>

Does anybody know why the number keys on standard PC keyboards are
distributed in the pattern
789
456
123
whereas most phones have the pattern
123
456
789

-- 
Regards,
Mark Preston

From johngeoffreywalker at yahoo.co.uk  Sat Oct  4 00:17:03 2008
From: johngeoffreywalker at yahoo.co.uk (John G Walker)
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 00:17:03 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] SATA card recommendations.
In-Reply-To: <48E69C18.2010303@lgeezer.net>
References: <732076a80810011447i10fbe235ub0a228dd678d9e0e@mail.gmail.com>
	<48E46315.7040305@sinodun.org.uk>
	<20081002093244.GP7492@hades.eco.li>
	<1223071397.6487.57.camel@malcolm-desktop-xpc>
	<48E69C18.2010303@lgeezer.net>
Message-ID: <20081004001703.427c894f@Rosebud.Harmony>



On Fri, 03 Oct 2008 23:26:32 +0100 Alistair Mann <gllug at lgeezer.net>
wrote:

> M.Blackmore wrote:
> > On Thu, 2008-10-02 at 10:32 +0100, Dan Kolb wrote:
> >> But surely no-one would need a disk larger 
> > 
> > 
> > You're but a young sprout Dan. Why I can remember in '73 when we
> > couldn't figure out what to do with 4 kilobyte of random access
> > memory nor how to fill up a 16 kilobyte 8" floppy disk...
> > unimaginable space.
> 
> You had a k in front of your b? We only had bs, and then only 99 of
> them available to the user! Still good enough for a whumped-down
> version of the later Horace goes skiing...
> 
> ZX81 FTW!

Luxury. When I were a lad our mainframe only had one bit - and it were
always set to false,

-- 
 All the best,
 John

From peterachilds at gmail.com  Sat Oct  4 06:17:45 2008
From: peterachilds at gmail.com (Peter Childs)
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 06:17:45 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] Digit differences on PC keyboards and phones
In-Reply-To: <48E69B01.9050805@markpreston.co.uk>
References: <48E69B01.9050805@markpreston.co.uk>
Message-ID: <a2de01dd0810032217v2d09860t1a4e22f02ef9aed0@mail.gmail.com>

2008/10/3 Mark Preston <mark at markpreston.co.uk>:
> Does anybody know why the number keys on standard PC keyboards are
> distributed in the pattern
> 789
> 456
> 123
> whereas most phones have the pattern
> 123
> 456
> 789
>
> --
> Regards,
> Mark Preston
> --
> Gllug mailing list  -  Gllug at gllug.org.uk
> http://lists.gllug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/gllug
>

A quick google gives....

http://www.vcalc.net/Keyboard.htm

Which seams read "because they are"

Peter Childs

From tim at seacon.co.uk  Sat Oct  4 08:48:14 2008
From: tim at seacon.co.uk (t.clarke)
Date: Sat,  4 Oct 2008  8:48:14 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] Digit differences on PC keyboards and phones
In-Reply-To: <48E69B01.9050805@markpreston.co.uk>
References: <48E69B01.9050805@markpreston.co.uk>
Message-ID: <tim-081004.08550342.14335@seacon.co.uk>

The 123 at the bottom seems much more natural to me  - its is the layout that
manual adding machines and calculators have used for years,  so I guess it would
floow on that PC keyboards use it.


The 789 at the bottom layout was defined I think originally by the International
Telecommuications Union or somesuch (at least I recall being told something like
that when I queried the layout with a telecomms manufacturer years ago).

Its actually a complete pain the *** as I am used to using a calculator keyboard
'blind' and find that I often mis-key telephone numbers as my fingers are used
to the calculator layout.

I guess we are stuck with both layouts in the same way as we are stuck with
'qwerty' (or 'azerty' in some countries?) even though general opinion seems to
be that that layout is not optimum.

Tim

From aaron.alzolaromero at arch.ox.ac.uk  Fri Oct  3 12:39:33 2008
From: aaron.alzolaromero at arch.ox.ac.uk (A. Alzola)
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 12:39:33 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] Polipo - Was: Caching youtube videos
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1223031602.12495.gllug@gllug.org.uk>
References: <mailman.1.1223031602.12495.gllug@gllug.org.uk>
Message-ID: <200810031239.33911.aaron.alzolaromero@arch.ox.ac.uk>

>Am playing with TOR and thus installed Privoxy.

Talking of which, I was wondering -- just how anonymous is a Tor connection in 
reality? I've read about the Metasploit people coming up with a method of 
tracing packets through a Tor network, but I believe that this only works if 
you are silly enough to have java connected while you browse. Is Tor 
anonymity a bit like PGP (i.e. Pretty Good Privacy only so long as someone 
doesn't have enough interest, money, and time to crack the key)? Does anyone 
on the list have an informed opinion? (... or am I opening a can of worms?)

Aarón

From social-bounces at gllug.org.uk  Sat Oct  4 08:59:17 2008
From: social-bounces at gllug.org.uk (social-bounces at gllug.org.uk)
Date: Sat, 04 Oct 2008 08:59:17 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] =?iso-8859-1?q?Forward_of_moderated_message?=
Message-ID: <mailman.1.1223107157.30984.social@gllug.org.uk>

An embedded message was scrubbed...
From: Mark Keating <mdk at shadowcatsystems.co.uk>
Subject: [ANNOUNCE] On ye subjecte principal to the submission of talkies
Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2008 15:29:18 +0100
Size: 3773
Url: http://lists.gllug.org.uk/pipermail/gllug/attachments/20081004/8768b91c/attachment.eml 

From rich at annexia.org  Sat Oct  4 09:34:14 2008
From: rich at annexia.org (Richard Jones)
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 09:34:14 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] Polipo - Was: Caching youtube videos
In-Reply-To: <6173342.1223037934679.JavaMail.root@ctps7>
References: <6173342.1223037934679.JavaMail.root@ctps7>
Message-ID: <20081004083414.GA16769@annexia.org>

On Fri, Oct 03, 2008 at 02:45:34PM +0200, A.ALZOLA at telefonica.net wrote:
> >Am playing with TOR and thus installed Privoxy.
> 
> Talking of which, I was wondering -- just how anonymous is a Tor connection in 
> reality? I've read about the Metasploit people coming up with a method of 
> tracing packets through a Tor network, but I believe that this only works if 
> you are silly enough to have java connected while you browse. Is Tor 
> anonymity a bit like PGP (i.e. Pretty Good Privacy only so long as someone 
> doesn't have enough interest, money, and time to crack the key)? Does anyone 
> on the list have an informed opinion? (... or am I opening a can of worms?)

Several weaknesses are mentioned in the wikipedia article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tor_(anonymity_network)#Weaknesses

There is another one I recall where a (well-funded) adversary sets up
many separate Tor nodes and can analyze traffic in between them.
Can't find a link to that one at the moment.

IMHO the real solution to privacy is always going to be to encrypt
much more HTTP traffic than is done right now (and that need is
becoming more urgent by the day).  The recent change to Firefox 3
where it now refuses to go to sites that have self-signed certificates
(but not sites which have no encryption at all) is thoroughly stupid.
Instead it should act like ssh -- show the key when you first visit a
site, show nothing on subsequent visits unless the key changes.

Rich.

-- 
Richard Jones
Red Hat

From nix at esperi.org.uk  Sat Oct  4 13:01:30 2008
From: nix at esperi.org.uk (Nix)
Date: Sat, 04 Oct 2008 13:01:30 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] Polipo - Was: Caching youtube videos
In-Reply-To: <48E53165.1010604@getaroundtoit.co.uk> (David L. Neil Mailing
	list a.'s message of "Thu, 02 Oct 2008 21:39:01 +0100")
References: <1222512425.6919.2.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<b6131fdc0809290308s2f3472bek7482673159a586d1@mail.gmail.com>
	<87skrelpba.fsf@hades.wkstn.nix>
	<48E53165.1010604@getaroundtoit.co.uk>
Message-ID: <87wsgok1r9.fsf@hades.wkstn.nix>

On 2 Oct 2008, David L. Neil Mailing list a. told this:

> Nix wrote:
>> Of course this just goes to show that you should be using Polipo instead
>> ;}
>
> Haven't come across this one before (which doesn't say a whole lot...).

It specializes in transport efficiency. unlike, say, wwwoffle (which
eliminates pipelining, doesn't cope with chunking properly and has all
sorts of horrible data-corruption bugs), Polipo often *increases* the
efficiency of data in transit, gzipping, chunking and pipelining even if
the client can't, seamlessly falling back if the far end messes up.

It's very nice. I can't think of a single webpage that failed to render
properly with it, again unlike wwwoffle.

(Also, unusually, it's designed to be installed *anywhere*: it doesn't
need a config file and doesn't need to be installed systemwide. Until
fairly recently it couldn't even write to syslog without going through
logger(1), but I fixed that :) )

> Am playing with TOR and thus installed Privoxy.
> 
> Care to make any comment about Polipo cf Privoxy in such applications,

I don't use Privoxy, or Tor, but
<http://www.pps.jussieu.fr/~jch/software/polipo/polipo.html#Privoxy>
might be helpful. It looks like it seriously damages transport
efficiency (no pipelining? What the hell?)

> and maybe running it on a small network 'gateway' m/c so as to service a
> number of TOR-ified FF browsers?

You want to use a SOCKS parent proxy:
<http://www.pps.jussieu.fr/~jch/software/polipo/polipo.html#SOCKS-parent-proxies>.

From nix at esperi.org.uk  Sat Oct  4 13:07:00 2008
From: nix at esperi.org.uk (Nix)
Date: Sat, 04 Oct 2008 13:07:00 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] Digit differences on PC keyboards and phones
In-Reply-To: <tim-081004.08550342.14335@seacon.co.uk> (t. clarke's message of
	"Sat, 4 Oct 2008  8:48:14 +0100")
References: <48E69B01.9050805@markpreston.co.uk>
	<tim-081004.08550342.14335@seacon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <87skrck1i3.fsf@hades.wkstn.nix>

On 4 Oct 2008, t. clarke said:
> I guess we are stuck with both layouts in the same way as we are stuck with
> 'qwerty' (or 'azerty' in some countries?) even though general opinion seems to
> be that that layout is not optimum.

You might be stuck with it, but my home row runs ANISF DTHOR :)

(You *are* stuck with it if you want cheap keyboards.)

-- 
`Not even vi uses vi key bindings for its command line.' --- PdS

From stuart at terminus.co.uk  Sat Oct  4 13:17:00 2008
From: stuart at terminus.co.uk (Stuart Children)
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 13:17:00 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] Polipo - Was: Caching youtube videos
In-Reply-To: <20081004083414.GA16769@annexia.org>
References: <6173342.1223037934679.JavaMail.root@ctps7>
	<20081004083414.GA16769@annexia.org>
Message-ID: <20081004121700.GA23535@urchin.earth.li>

On Sat, Oct 04, 2008 at 09:34:14AM +0100, Richard Jones wrote:
> The recent change to Firefox 3
> where it now refuses to go to sites that have self-signed certificates
> (but not sites which have no encryption at all) is thoroughly stupid.
> Instead it should act like ssh -- show the key when you first visit a
> site, show nothing on subsequent visits unless the key changes.

FUD. It doesn't refuse those sites at all. This has been misreported a lot,
and when I initially heard that my reaction was the same as yours.

It does actually act a lot more like ssh. It (rightly) says it can't verify
the cert, telling you this probably a Bad Thing. Then you can "get out of
there", or accept it in two clicks which will permanently store the cert
locally and not bother you the next time.

Not something I've personally had a need for on the www, but have used it
quite a bit at work when people set up temporary servers for testing without
bothering to sign them with the company's CA.

-- 
Stuart

From johngeoffreywalker at yahoo.co.uk  Sat Oct  4 17:21:01 2008
From: johngeoffreywalker at yahoo.co.uk (John G Walker)
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 17:21:01 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] Digit differences on PC keyboards and phones
In-Reply-To: <tim-081004.08550342.14335@seacon.co.uk>
References: <48E69B01.9050805@markpreston.co.uk>
	<tim-081004.08550342.14335@seacon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20081004172101.0ba70661@Rosebud.Harmony>



On Sat,  4 Oct 2008  8:48:14 +0100 "t.clarke" <tim at seacon.co.uk> wrote:

> The 789 at the bottom layout was defined I think originally by the
> International Telecommuications Union or somesuch (at least I recall
> being told something like that when I queried the layout with a
> telecomms manufacturer years ago).
> 
> Its actually a complete pain the *** as I am used to using a
> calculator keyboard 'blind' and find that I often mis-key telephone
> numbers as my fingers are used to the calculator layout.

Curiously, I'm completely the opposite. Although I don't have to look
to use either a calculator or a telephone keypad, I had to have it
pointed out to me that these were differently laid out. I actually had
to hold a calculator next to a telephone before I could fully grasp the
fact.
> 
> I guess we are stuck with both layouts in the same way as we are
> stuck with 'qwerty' (or 'azerty' in some countries?) even though
> general opinion seems to be that that layout is not optimum.

It is said that these layouts are not optimum. Indeed, the economic
historian Paul David has made much out of this (the technical term is
"path dependency"). However, no one has ever proved that they are less
than optimum.

I started having doubts about this ten years or so ago when I shared an
office with a Spanish woman. Soon after we began to share the office I
noticed her touch typing at her keyboard. I queried this, and she
replied that she'd learnt as a girl, passing the official Spanish
typing exam at, I believe, the age of twelve.

But, I pointed out, she would have learnt the Spanish keyboard layout.
She was using a British keyboard.

"Oh," she said, "that's no problem."

It was at that point Paul David's argument suddenly became less
convincing,

-- 
 All the best,
 John

From gllug at eco.li  Sat Oct  4 22:11:51 2008
From: gllug at eco.li (Dan Kolb)
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 22:11:51 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] Digit differences on PC keyboards and phones
In-Reply-To: <87skrck1i3.fsf@hades.wkstn.nix>
References: <48E69B01.9050805@markpreston.co.uk>
	<tim-081004.08550342.14335@seacon.co.uk>
	<87skrck1i3.fsf@hades.wkstn.nix>
Message-ID: <20081004211151.GS7492@hades.eco.li>

On Sat, Oct 04, 2008 at 01:07:00PM +0100, Nix wrote:
> On 4 Oct 2008, t. clarke said:
> > I guess we are stuck with both layouts in the same way as we are stuck with
> > 'qwerty' (or 'azerty' in some countries?) even though general opinion seems to
> > be that that layout is not optimum.
> 
> You might be stuck with it, but my home row runs ANISF DTHOR :)

That sounds like the name from a very dodgy scifi book.

-- 
Concept, n.:
	Any "idea" for which an outside consultant billed you more than
	$25,000.

From dylan at dylan.me.uk  Sat Oct  4 22:59:13 2008
From: dylan at dylan.me.uk (Dylan)
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 22:59:13 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] Digit differences on PC keyboards and phones
In-Reply-To: <20081004172101.0ba70661@Rosebud.Harmony>
References: <48E69B01.9050805@markpreston.co.uk>
	<tim-081004.08550342.14335@seacon.co.uk>
	<20081004172101.0ba70661@Rosebud.Harmony>
Message-ID: <200810042259.13802.dylan@dylan.me.uk>

On Saturday 04 October 2008, John G Walker wrote:
<SNIP>
>
> But, I pointed out, she would have learnt the Spanish keyboard layout.
> She was using a British keyboard.
>
> "Oh," she said, "that's no problem."

Indeed, it took me about an hour to transfer to a Russian keyboard the first 
time I needed to use one. Learning to type, I think, is not so much about 
learning where the characters are relative to the keys but learning the 
necessary moves to hit individual keys - you can then superimpose any layout 
with a little practice. I actually find it harder to go from a traditional 
flat keyboard to an "ergonomic" one than swapping from UK to RU layout.

Dx

-- 
?????? ???? ???? ?? ?????, ????? ? ??? ?? ???????????.?

From john at sinodun.org.uk  Sun Oct  5 08:17:03 2008
From: john at sinodun.org.uk (John Winters)
Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2008 08:17:03 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] Digit differences on PC keyboards and phones
In-Reply-To: <48E69B01.9050805@markpreston.co.uk>
References: <48E69B01.9050805@markpreston.co.uk>
Message-ID: <48E869EF.4070206@sinodun.org.uk>

Mark Preston wrote:
> Does anybody know why the number keys on standard PC keyboards are
> distributed in the pattern
> 789
> 456
> 123
> whereas most phones have the pattern
> 123
> 456
> 789

Further suggestions here:

http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/question641.htm

John

From john at sinodun.org.uk  Sun Oct  5 08:19:37 2008
From: john at sinodun.org.uk (John Winters)
Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2008 08:19:37 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] Digit differences on PC keyboards and phones
In-Reply-To: <20081004172101.0ba70661@Rosebud.Harmony>
References: <48E69B01.9050805@markpreston.co.uk>	<tim-081004.08550342.14335@seacon.co.uk>
	<20081004172101.0ba70661@Rosebud.Harmony>
Message-ID: <48E86A89.5030709@sinodun.org.uk>

John G Walker wrote:
[snip]
> But, I pointed out, she would have learnt the Spanish keyboard layout.
> She was using a British keyboard.
> 
> "Oh," she said, "that's no problem."

I used to do a lot of work in Austria and found I could use a QWERTZUIOP
keyboard without too much difficulty.  This summer in France though I
was almost totally baffled by their AZERTY keyboards.  It's not just the
obvious first line that threw me, but M is somewhere totally different
and my fingers run far too much on automatic.  Passwords in particular
tended to take about three attempts because I had to hunt-and-peck them
if I wanted to get them right.

John

From nix at esperi.org.uk  Sun Oct  5 20:59:56 2008
From: nix at esperi.org.uk (Nix)
Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2008 20:59:56 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] Digit differences on PC keyboards and phones
In-Reply-To: <20081004211151.GS7492@hades.eco.li> (Dan Kolb's message of "Sat,
	4 Oct 2008 22:11:51 +0100")
References: <48E69B01.9050805@markpreston.co.uk>
	<tim-081004.08550342.14335@seacon.co.uk>
	<87skrck1i3.fsf@hades.wkstn.nix> <20081004211151.GS7492@hades.eco.li>
Message-ID: <871vyug6df.fsf@hades.wkstn.nix>

On 4 Oct 2008, Dan Kolb uttered the following:

> On Sat, Oct 04, 2008 at 01:07:00PM +0100, Nix wrote:
>> On 4 Oct 2008, t. clarke said:
>> > I guess we are stuck with both layouts in the same way as we are stuck with
>> > 'qwerty' (or 'azerty' in some countries?) even though general opinion seems to
>> > be that that layout is not optimum.
>> 
>> You might be stuck with it, but my home row runs ANISF DTHOR :)
>
> That sounds like the name from a very dodgy scifi book.

What, unpronounceable and implying that this person used to be a Norse
deity? Agreed. (If one of the characters spoke very bad faux Elizabethan
English for no convincing reason, you're reading a book by Weber.)

-- 
`Not even vi uses vi key bindings for its command line.' --- PdS

From nix at esperi.org.uk  Sun Oct  5 21:09:27 2008
From: nix at esperi.org.uk (Nix)
Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2008 21:09:27 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] Digit differences on PC keyboards and phones
In-Reply-To: <200810042259.13802.dylan@dylan.me.uk> (dylan@dylan.me.uk's
	message of "Sat, 4 Oct 2008 22:59:13 +0100")
References: <48E69B01.9050805@markpreston.co.uk>
	<tim-081004.08550342.14335@seacon.co.uk>
	<20081004172101.0ba70661@Rosebud.Harmony>
	<200810042259.13802.dylan@dylan.me.uk>
Message-ID: <87wsgmerd4.fsf@hades.wkstn.nix>

On 4 Oct 2008, dylan at dylan.me.uk verbalised:
> Indeed, it took me about an hour to transfer to a Russian keyboard the first 
> time I needed to use one. Learning to type, I think, is not so much about 
> learning where the characters are relative to the keys but learning the 
> necessary moves to hit individual keys - you can then superimpose any layout 
> with a little practice. I actually find it harder to go from a traditional 
> flat keyboard to an "ergonomic" one than swapping from UK to RU layout.

I find the opposite true. It was easy for me to shift from a normal
keyboard to a Maltron in QWERTY mode, because only a few punctuation and
control keys moved around (e.g. onto the thumb pad): the rearrangement
of the keys in vertical arrays (rather than diagonal) caused me no
trouble at all (I was bashing away at higher than pre-switch speeds in
about a week).

But it took me *years* to learn its alternate non-QWERTY layout. Years.

-- 
`Not even vi uses vi key bindings for its command line.' --- PdS

From sta296 at astradyne.co.uk  Mon Oct  6 01:33:51 2008
From: sta296 at astradyne.co.uk (Tethys)
Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2008 01:33:51 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] Digit differences on PC keyboards and phones
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 04 Oct 2008 08:48:14 BST."
	<tim-081004.08550342.14335@seacon.co.uk> 
References: <48E69B01.9050805@markpreston.co.uk> 
	<tim-081004.08550342.14335@seacon.co.uk> 
Message-ID: <200810060033.m960XpHS004034@leto.astradyne.corp>

--------

"t.clarke" writes:

>Its actually a complete pain the *** as I am used to using a calculator
>keyboard 'blind' and find that I often mis-key telephone numbers as my
>fingers are used to the calculator layout.

xmodmap is your friend...

Tet

From tim at seacon.co.uk  Mon Oct  6 07:41:17 2008
From: tim at seacon.co.uk (t.clarke)
Date: Mon,  6 Oct 2008  7:41:17 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] Digit differences on PC keyboards and phones
In-Reply-To: <200810060033.m960XpHS004034@leto.astradyne.corp>
References: <200810060033.m960XpHS004034@leto.astradyne.corp>
	<48E69B01.9050805@markpreston.co.uk>
Message-ID: <tim-081006.07413797.29258@seacon.co.uk>

How does xmodmap help me with a telephone keypad ???

Tim

From sta296 at astradyne.co.uk  Mon Oct  6 08:18:01 2008
From: sta296 at astradyne.co.uk (Tethys)
Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2008 08:18:01 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] Digit differences on PC keyboards and phones
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 06 Oct 2008 07:41:17 BST."
	<tim-081006.07413797.29258@seacon.co.uk> 
References: <200810060033.m960XpHS004034@leto.astradyne.corp>
	<48E69B01.9050805@markpreston.co.uk> 
	<tim-081006.07413797.29258@seacon.co.uk> 
Message-ID: <200810060718.m967I1en007121@leto.astradyne.corp>

--------

"t.clarke" writes:

>How does xmodmap help me with a telephone keypad ???

Sorry, I misread it. I thought you wanted to swap it the other way around.

Tet

From abuse at cabal.org.uk  Mon Oct  6 09:38:42 2008
From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett)
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 09:38:42 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] Digit differences on PC keyboards and phones
In-Reply-To: <tim-081006.07413797.29258@seacon.co.uk>
References: <200810060033.m960XpHS004034@leto.astradyne.corp>
	<48E69B01.9050805@markpreston.co.uk>
	<tim-081006.07413797.29258@seacon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20081006083842.GA25612@cabal.org.uk>

On Mon, Oct 06, 2008 at 07:41:17AM +0100, t.clarke wrote:
> How does xmodmap help me with a telephone keypad ???

You could always swap in a rotary-dial phone...

(I'm going to feel very old if somebody pipes up and says they don't know
what I'm on about.)


From peterachilds at gmail.com  Mon Oct  6 09:44:29 2008
From: peterachilds at gmail.com (Peter Childs)
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 09:44:29 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] Digit differences on PC keyboards and phones
In-Reply-To: <20081006083842.GA25612@cabal.org.uk>
References: <200810060033.m960XpHS004034@leto.astradyne.corp>
	<48E69B01.9050805@markpreston.co.uk>
	<tim-081006.07413797.29258@seacon.co.uk>
	<20081006083842.GA25612@cabal.org.uk>
Message-ID: <a2de01dd0810060144m480f8738jfb89035046dc348e@mail.gmail.com>

2008/10/6 Peter Corlett <abuse at cabal.org.uk>:
> On Mon, Oct 06, 2008 at 07:41:17AM +0100, t.clarke wrote:
>> How does xmodmap help me with a telephone keypad ???
>
> You could always swap in a rotary-dial phone...
>
> (I'm going to feel very old if somebody pipes up and says they don't know
> what I'm on about.)
>
> --
> Gllug mailing list  -  Gllug at gllug.org.uk
> http://lists.gllug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/gllug
>

Or a Linux PC.. (Running Asterks at which point you could use XModmap.....)

Peter

From tethys at gmail.com  Mon Oct  6 09:48:33 2008
From: tethys at gmail.com (- Tethys)
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 09:48:33 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] Digit differences on PC keyboards and phones
In-Reply-To: <20081006083842.GA25612@cabal.org.uk>
References: <200810060033.m960XpHS004034@leto.astradyne.corp>
	<48E69B01.9050805@markpreston.co.uk>
	<tim-081006.07413797.29258@seacon.co.uk>
	<20081006083842.GA25612@cabal.org.uk>
Message-ID: <264d99b00810060148r47fdb081hc79df485b79f3ac6@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Oct 6, 2008 at 9:38 AM, Peter Corlett <abuse at cabal.org.uk> wrote:

> On Mon, Oct 06, 2008 at 07:41:17AM +0100, t.clarke wrote:
>> How does xmodmap help me with a telephone keypad ???
>
> You could always swap in a rotary-dial phone...
>
> (I'm going to feel very old if somebody pipes up and says they don't know
> what I'm on about.)

My boss has a rotary dial mobile phone. It's a full size bakelite
rotary phone, with a SIM slot inside. It's a little impractical to
carry around, but still exceedingly cool :-)

Tet

-- 
Perl is like vise grips. You can do anything with it but it is the
wrong tool for every job. -- Bruce Eckel

From chris at wavestore.com  Mon Oct  6 10:36:58 2008
From: chris at wavestore.com (Christopher Mocock)
Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2008 10:36:58 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] SATA card recommendations.
In-Reply-To: <732076a80810011447i10fbe235ub0a228dd678d9e0e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <732076a80810011447i10fbe235ub0a228dd678d9e0e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <48E9DC3A.5080209@wavestore.com>

Benjamin Donnachie wrote:
> I'd be grateful for recommendations for inexpensive PCI SATA cards
> that work fully under Linux AND support 1TB drives.
> 
> The version / distro is irrelevant as I can upgrade as required.  So
> far I only seem to find cards that satisfy only one of the criteria...
> :-/

You could try the Supermicro SAT2-MV8. It works fine on Fedora, has 8
ports, supports SATA2(300) and only costs 60-70 pounds. The only problem
is that the driver is not open source so you'll be running a tainted kernel.

-- 
Chris

From rich at annexia.org  Mon Oct  6 11:46:04 2008
From: rich at annexia.org (Richard Jones)
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 11:46:04 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] Polipo - Was: Caching youtube videos
In-Reply-To: <20081004121700.GA23535@urchin.earth.li>
References: <6173342.1223037934679.JavaMail.root@ctps7>
	<20081004083414.GA16769@annexia.org>
	<20081004121700.GA23535@urchin.earth.li>
Message-ID: <20081006104604.GA22866@annexia.org>

On Sat, Oct 04, 2008 at 01:17:00PM +0100, Stuart Children wrote:
> On Sat, Oct 04, 2008 at 09:34:14AM +0100, Richard Jones wrote:
> > The recent change to Firefox 3
> > where it now refuses to go to sites that have self-signed certificates
> > (but not sites which have no encryption at all) is thoroughly stupid.
> > Instead it should act like ssh -- show the key when you first visit a
> > site, show nothing on subsequent visits unless the key changes.
> 
> FUD. It doesn't refuse those sites at all. This has been misreported a lot,
> and when I initially heard that my reaction was the same as yours.

No, I am correct.  I've just tried this with the very latest Firefox.
On a site (https://lists.andrew.cmu.edu/mailman/listinfo/minirpc-devel)
with a self-signed cert I get this error:

  Secure Connection Failed

  lists.andrew.cmu.edu uses an invalid security certificate.

  The certificate is not trusted because the issuer certificate is not
  trusted.

  (Error code: sec_error_untrusted_issuer)

  * This could be a problem with the server's configuration, or it could
    be someone trying to impersonate the server.

  * If you have connected to this server successfully in the past, the
  error may be temporary, and you can try again later.

Accompanied by a "cop-style" logo which clearly indicates I have done
something very wrong and cannot go any further.  At the very bottom of
this message, in the tiniest letters, a link says:

  Or you can add an exception

Now, compare this to a page which is unencrypted. http://news.bbc.co.uk/
shows no error at all.

Rich.

-- 
Richard Jones
Red Hat

From rich at annexia.org  Mon Oct  6 11:48:32 2008
From: rich at annexia.org (Richard Jones)
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 11:48:32 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] Polipo - Was: Caching youtube videos
In-Reply-To: <20081006104604.GA22866@annexia.org>
References: <6173342.1223037934679.JavaMail.root@ctps7>
	<20081004083414.GA16769@annexia.org>
	<20081004121700.GA23535@urchin.earth.li>
	<20081006104604.GA22866@annexia.org>
Message-ID: <20081006104832.GB22866@annexia.org>

On Mon, Oct 06, 2008 at 11:46:04AM +0100, Richard Jones wrote:
>   Or you can add an exception

Sorry, I missed the best bit there.  If I click on this, I get a popup
which says:

  You should not add an exception if you are using an internet
  connection that you do not trust completely or if you are not used to
  seeing a warning for this server.

    [ GET ME OUT OF HERE! ]  [ ADD EXCEPTION ... ]

This is utterly ass-backwards.  Why don't I get a stronger warning
when I visit an unencrypted page?  Self-signed certs require two
non-obvious clicks, so I think unencrypted pages should get four or
five, perhaps with even more dire and confusing warnings.

Rich.

-- 
Richard Jones
Red Hat

From farnsaw at stonedoor.com  Mon Oct  6 11:53:31 2008
From: farnsaw at stonedoor.com (Andrew Farnsworth)
Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2008 06:53:31 -0400
Subject: [Gllug] SATA card recommendations.
Message-ID: <54338.1223290411@stonedoor.com>

On Mon Oct  6  5:36 , Christopher Mocock  sent:

>Benjamin Donnachie wrote:
>> I'd be grateful for recommendations for inexpensive PCI SATA cards
>> that work fully under Linux AND support 1TB drives.
>> 
>> The version / distro is irrelevant as I can upgrade as required.  So
>> far I only seem to find cards that satisfy only one of the criteria...
>> :-/
>
>You could try the Supermicro SAT2-MV8. It works fine on Fedora, has 8
>ports, supports SATA2(300) and only costs 60-70 pounds. The only problem
>is that the driver is not open source so you'll be running a tainted kernel.

Looking online I found the following page: http://linux-ata.org/driver-status.html

This seems to indicate that the Silicon Image 3124 is an open chipset and has
open drivers.  Cards based on this are available in the US for <$100.

Andy

From abuse at cabal.org.uk  Mon Oct  6 11:55:09 2008
From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett)
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 11:55:09 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] Caching youtube videos
In-Reply-To: <87skrelpba.fsf@hades.wkstn.nix>
References: <1222512425.6919.2.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<b6131fdc0809290308s2f3472bek7482673159a586d1@mail.gmail.com>
	<87skrelpba.fsf@hades.wkstn.nix>
Message-ID: <20081006105508.GA1091@cabal.org.uk>

On Thu, Oct 02, 2008 at 09:22:49PM +0100, Nix wrote:
[...]
> Of course this just goes to show that you should be using Polipo instead
> ;}

Is there any way to configure it to log requests? That's rather more useful
information than chatter about Etag: and Vary: headers and whatnot.

(Also, before I go and test it, can I use it as a iptables-enforced
transparent proxy? It'd be nice to cache more of my home traffic and not
just the stuff that can be configured to use a proxy.)


From nix at esperi.org.uk  Mon Oct  6 20:41:09 2008
From: nix at esperi.org.uk (Nix)
Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2008 20:41:09 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] Caching youtube videos
In-Reply-To: <20081006105508.GA1091@cabal.org.uk> (Peter Corlett's message of
	"Mon, 6 Oct 2008 11:55:09 +0100")
References: <1222512425.6919.2.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<b6131fdc0809290308s2f3472bek7482673159a586d1@mail.gmail.com>
	<87skrelpba.fsf@hades.wkstn.nix> <20081006105508.GA1091@cabal.org.uk>
Message-ID: <873aj9bjfu.fsf@hades.wkstn.nix>

On 6 Oct 2008, Peter Corlett uttered the following:

> On Thu, Oct 02, 2008 at 09:22:49PM +0100, Nix wrote:
> [...]
>> Of course this just goes to show that you should be using Polipo instead
>> ;}
>
> Is there any way to configure it to log requests? That's rather more useful
> information than chatter about Etag: and Vary: headers and whatnot.

Yes, but it's a debugging option so requires a recompile (on the basis
that it's both a privacy violation and somewhat incoherent because
clients can often request things and then change their mind immediately
afterwards, request parts of things, and so on and so forth ad
nauseam). Change LOGGING_MAX in log.h to 0xFFFFFFFF, and then you can
set logLevel to something like, say, 2055 (that's 0x807,
L_ERROR|L_WARN|L_INFO|D_CLIENT_REQ).

If you're using the syslog output, this will get logged at debugging
priority: feel free to add entries to the array in translatePriority()
in log.c to change this. (This part of Polipo isn't as configurable as
I'd like.)

(Note that Polipo can cache *parts* of server responses, so it can
remember bits of large requests that were later interrupted or timed
out. This might throw off your tracking, most caching proxies can't do
it :) )

> (Also, before I go and test it, can I use it as a iptables-enforced
> transparent proxy? It'd be nice to cache more of my home traffic and not
> just the stuff that can be configured to use a proxy.)

No, Juliusz has been scathing about transparent proxies in the past and
is unlikely to change his tune :) parroting his words, in effect you
*cannot* do HTTP proxying reliably without application knowledge:
proxying changes the semantics of a number of things and can't be
transparently interposed reliably. (The polipo list archives have more
on this.)

Sorry :(

(what things can't be configured to use a proxy? I haven't seen anything
in years.)

-- 
`Not even vi uses vi key bindings for its command line.' --- PdS

From stuart at terminus.co.uk  Mon Oct  6 20:42:26 2008
From: stuart at terminus.co.uk (Stuart Children)
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 20:42:26 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] Polipo - Was: Caching youtube videos
In-Reply-To: <20081006104832.GB22866@annexia.org>
References: <6173342.1223037934679.JavaMail.root@ctps7>
	<20081004083414.GA16769@annexia.org>
	<20081004121700.GA23535@urchin.earth.li>
	<20081006104604.GA22866@annexia.org>
	<20081006104832.GB22866@annexia.org>
Message-ID: <20081006194226.GA25815@urchin.earth.li>

On Mon, Oct 06, 2008 at 11:48:32AM +0100, Richard Jones wrote:
> Sorry, I missed the best bit there.  If I click on this, I get a popup
> which says:
> 
>   You should not add an exception if you are using an internet
>   connection that you do not trust completely or if you are not used to
>   seeing a warning for this server.
> 
>     [ GET ME OUT OF HERE! ]  [ ADD EXCEPTION ... ]

Yes, and if you follow the add exception process through, the certificate 
(and the fact that you trust it) is stored and on next visits you go straight 
through with nary a word. Is that not the case? Yet in your original email 
you said:

> The recent change to Firefox 3
> where it now refuses to go to sites that have self-signed certificates

Maybe you meant it differently, but that sounds to me like there is no way to
visit those sites - which is not true. You also said:

> Instead it should act like ssh -- show the key when you first visit a
> site, show nothing on subsequent visits unless the key changes.

Which I think it does. Now this:

$ ssh blah.example
The authenticity of host 'blah.example (10.1.2.3)' can't be
established.
RSA key fingerprint is aa:bb:some:more:hex.
Are you sure you want to continue connecting (yes/no)?

I will happily agree is far more succinct, less scare-mongering, simpler, yet
accurate. Still, the basic flow is the same.

> This is utterly ass-backwards.  Why don't I get a stronger warning
> when I visit an unencrypted page?

I didn't make any comment on that. To answer though, in an ideal world I
agree it should. Being more pragmatic however, it's because the vast majority 
of the web is HTTP and there is no meaningful way to add a trust. People also 
think HTTPS == can be trusted, which you and I know is not the whole story.
We can make informed decisions on what to do - most people can't. So Firefox 
has made a compromise. I do think the wording is too extreme, and that we
would be better off long-term educating people; but I understand their 
reasoning. Personally I find being prompted when I hit a new SSL cert, but 
not on ones I have previously verified and trusted, an improvement on 
Firefox's previous behaviour.

-- 
Stuart

From rich at annexia.org  Mon Oct  6 23:01:24 2008
From: rich at annexia.org (Richard Jones)
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 23:01:24 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] Polipo - Was: Caching youtube videos
In-Reply-To: <20081006194226.GA25815@urchin.earth.li>
References: <6173342.1223037934679.JavaMail.root@ctps7>
	<20081004083414.GA16769@annexia.org>
	<20081004121700.GA23535@urchin.earth.li>
	<20081006104604.GA22866@annexia.org>
	<20081006104832.GB22866@annexia.org>
	<20081006194226.GA25815@urchin.earth.li>
Message-ID: <20081006220124.GA24310@annexia.org>

On Mon, Oct 06, 2008 at 08:42:26PM +0100, Stuart Children wrote:
> On Mon, Oct 06, 2008 at 11:48:32AM +0100, Richard Jones wrote:
> > Sorry, I missed the best bit there.  If I click on this, I get a popup
> > which says:
> > 
> >   You should not add an exception if you are using an internet
> >   connection that you do not trust completely or if you are not used to
> >   seeing a warning for this server.
> > 
> >     [ GET ME OUT OF HERE! ]  [ ADD EXCEPTION ... ]
>
> Yes, and if you follow the add exception process through, the
> certificate (and the fact that you trust it) is stored and on next
> visits you go straight through with nary a word.

"Nary a word"?  I really hope that's a joke because the dialog you get
after clicking Add Exception confused me to the point where it took
_me_ a minute to work out what to press to get it to accept the
certificate.  There is no way this would pass the girlfriend /
grandmother test.

> Is that not the case? Yet in your original email 
> you said:
> 
> > The recent change to Firefox 3
> > where it now refuses to go to sites that have self-signed certificates

And I stand by that statement.  It _does plainly_ refuse to go to such
sites.  You get a page which is to all intents and purposes
indistinguishable from an error page, such as a 404.

> Maybe you meant it differently, but that sounds to me like there is no way to
> visit those sites - which is not true.

Certainly.  One way would be to shut down Firefox 3 and use a sane web
browser.

> You also said:
> 
> > Instead it should act like ssh -- show the key when you first visit a
> > site, show nothing on subsequent visits unless the key changes.
> 
> Which I think it does.

When you get through that multi-layered confusing dialog, ok.

Rich.

-- 
Richard Jones
Red Hat

From chrisbell at overview.demon.co.uk  Mon Oct  6 23:42:14 2008
From: chrisbell at overview.demon.co.uk (Chris Bell)
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 23:42:14 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [Gllug] Digit differences on PC keyboards and phones
In-Reply-To: <20081006083842.GA25612@cabal.org.uk>
Message-ID: <Marcel-1.53-1006224214-588hjSf@riscpc.localdomain>

On Mon 06 Oct, Peter Corlett wrote:
> 
> On Mon, Oct 06, 2008 at 07:41:17AM +0100, t.clarke wrote:
> > How does xmodmap help me with a telephone keypad ???
> 
> You could always swap in a rotary-dial phone...
> 
> (I'm going to feel very old if somebody pipes up and says they don't know
> what I'm on about.)
> 
   Now reaching their end of life because of the switch to digital, (I have
not seen any digital version).


-- 
Chris Bell NEW alternative address: chrisbell at chrisbell.org.uk
Microsoft sells you Windows ... Linux gives you the whole house.


From abuse at cabal.org.uk  Tue Oct  7 13:45:46 2008
From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett)
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 13:45:46 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] Digit differences on PC keyboards and phones
In-Reply-To: <Marcel-1.53-1006224214-588hjSf@riscpc.localdomain>
References: <Marcel-1.53-1006224214-588hjSf@riscpc.localdomain>
Message-ID: <272F9462-DDCC-4800-9214-11FDCEB2C1B3@cabal.org.uk>

On 6 Oct 2008, at 23:42, Chris Bell wrote:
[...]
> Now reaching their end of life because of the switch to digital, (I  
> have
> not seen any digital version).


Incidentally, this relevant image was posted to the Monastery:

http://www.adminspotting.org/BTdoh.jpg

Feel free to play "count the mistakes".



From social-bounces at gllug.org.uk  Sat Oct 11 09:41:37 2008
From: social-bounces at gllug.org.uk (social-bounces at gllug.org.uk)
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 09:41:37 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] =?iso-8859-1?q?Forward_of_moderated_message?=
Message-ID: <mailman.0.1223714497.22909.social@gllug.org.uk>

An embedded message was scrubbed...
From: Mark Keating <mdk at shadowcatsystems.co.uk>
Subject: [ANNOUNCE] LPW: Call for Papers
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 15:50:04 +0100
Size: 3816
Url: http://lists.gllug.org.uk/pipermail/gllug/attachments/20081011/283c74bf/attachment.eml 

From chrisbell at overview.demon.co.uk  Sun Oct 12 10:07:37 2008
From: chrisbell at overview.demon.co.uk (Chris Bell)
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 10:07:37 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [Gllug] GLLUG at Olympia, October 2008
Message-ID: <Marcel-1.53-1012090737-d07hjSf@riscpc.localdomain>

Hello,
   GLLUG has requested a stand in the .org village at the Olympia, October
23 - 25, 2008 LinuxLive/MacLive/CreativePro Expo. I expect to be there for
the entire time plus the rig day, who will be available to man the stand
with me, (not just as a visitor), and when?

-- 
Chris Bell NEW alternative address: chrisbell at chrisbell.org.uk
Microsoft sells you Windows ... Linux gives you the whole house.


From chrisbell at overview.demon.co.uk  Sun Oct 12 11:32:42 2008
From: chrisbell at overview.demon.co.uk (Chris Bell)
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 11:32:42 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [Gllug] Disc partitions
Message-ID: <Marcel-1.53-1012103242-313hjSf@riscpc.localdomain>

Hello,
   The sizes of new disc drives are increasing at a great rate, as are the
Linux distributions. Older computers often had much smaller discs, but could
still provide very useful functions if more than one disc is available. As
an example I have a HP dual processor server with several 9.1GB SCSI drives.
Some information about splitting / into different partitions is available,
but which can safely be placed on other discs without booting problems?

-- 
Chris Bell NEW alternative address: chrisbell at chrisbell.org.uk
Microsoft sells you Windows ... Linux gives you the whole house.


From dylan at dylan.me.uk  Sun Oct 12 12:33:49 2008
From: dylan at dylan.me.uk (Dylan)
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 12:33:49 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] Disc partitions
In-Reply-To: <Marcel-1.53-1012103242-313hjSf@riscpc.localdomain>
References: <Marcel-1.53-1012103242-313hjSf@riscpc.localdomain>
Message-ID: <200810121233.49615.dylan@dylan.me.uk>

On Sunday 12 October 2008, Chris Bell wrote:
> ...
> As an example I have a HP dual processor server with several
> 9.1GB SCSI drives. Some information about splitting / into different
> partitions is available, but which can safely be placed on other discs
> without booting problems?

Well, it's partly going to depend on the functions you have in mind. A machine 
with no graphical desktop is still only going to need a small installed 
footprint.

As to what can be shifted off to other physical drives, I've never had serious 
issues partitioning off /home /opt /tmp /usr and any service specific data 
(ftp space / web pages etc.) And the only time /var has been problematic on a 
separate file system was when a system suffered a catastrophic failure so not 
sure that counts!


There is also RAID and LVM of course.

Dx
-- 
? ?... but there is so much else behind what I say. It makes itself known to 
me so slowly, so incompletely! ...? ?

From rich at annexia.org  Sun Oct 12 12:41:22 2008
From: rich at annexia.org (Richard Jones)
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 12:41:22 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] GLLUG at Olympia, October 2008
In-Reply-To: <Marcel-1.53-1012090737-d07hjSf@riscpc.localdomain>
References: <Marcel-1.53-1012090737-d07hjSf@riscpc.localdomain>
Message-ID: <20081012114122.GA10424@annexia.org>

On Sun, Oct 12, 2008 at 10:07:37AM +0100, Chris Bell wrote:
> Hello,
>    GLLUG has requested a stand in the .org village at the Olympia, October
> 23 - 25, 2008 LinuxLive/MacLive/CreativePro Expo. I expect to be there for
> the entire time plus the rig day, who will be available to man the stand
> with me, (not just as a visitor), and when?

Website for this event is rather difficult to find.  It's here:
http://www.linuxexpolive.co.uk/

Registration is free, but you have to go through a soul-sucking form
so they can send you endless spam.

Rich.

-- 
Richard Jones
Red Hat

From chrisbell at overview.demon.co.uk  Sun Oct 12 13:00:48 2008
From: chrisbell at overview.demon.co.uk (Chris Bell)
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 13:00:48 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [Gllug] Disc partitions
In-Reply-To: <200810121233.49615.dylan@dylan.me.uk>
Message-ID: <Marcel-1.53-1012120048-965hjSf@riscpc.localdomain>

On Sun 12 Oct, Dylan wrote:

> 
> Well, it's partly going to depend on the functions you have in mind. A machine 
> with no graphical desktop is still only going to need a small installed 
> footprint.
> 
> As to what can be shifted off to other physical drives, I've never had serious 
> issues partitioning off /home /opt /tmp /usr and any service specific data 
> (ftp space / web pages etc.) And the only time /var has been problematic on a 
> separate file system was when a system suffered a catastrophic failure so not 
> sure that counts!
> 
> 
> There is also RAID and LVM of course.
> 
> Dx

   Thanks. It looks as though I may have an intermittent problem, with one
drive slow to start giving data. I have had intermittent problems re-booting
a box, possibly because I tried to put /var on a separate disc, but I have
also tried placing the various partitions in a different order on other
discs. It has worked, but not every time. This time I have everything on one
disc, and still have intermittent problems.

-- 
Chris Bell NEW alternative address: chrisbell at chrisbell.org.uk
Microsoft sells you Windows ... Linux gives you the whole house.


From nix at esperi.org.uk  Sun Oct 12 13:34:02 2008
From: nix at esperi.org.uk (Nix)
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 13:34:02 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] Disc partitions
In-Reply-To: <200810121233.49615.dylan@dylan.me.uk> (dylan@dylan.me.uk's
	message of "Sun, 12 Oct 2008 12:33:49 +0100")
References: <Marcel-1.53-1012103242-313hjSf@riscpc.localdomain>
	<200810121233.49615.dylan@dylan.me.uk>
Message-ID: <87r66mngat.fsf@hades.wkstn.nix>

On 12 Oct 2008, dylan at dylan.me.uk verbalised:
> There is also RAID and LVM of course.

I'd be inclined to say that if you have several drives such that you can
group them into N sets of roughly similar size where each set doesn't
slow the others down when you access it, RAID-5/6 it instantly. With
old drives, reliability is almost certainly going to be more important
than storage space (those drives *will* die one day, and if you wanted
storage space you wouldn't be using drives that old).

-- 
`Not even vi uses vi key bindings for its command line.' --- PdS

From chrisbell at overview.demon.co.uk  Sun Oct 12 16:24:22 2008
From: chrisbell at overview.demon.co.uk (Chris Bell)
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 16:24:22 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [Gllug] Disc partitions
In-Reply-To: <87r66mngat.fsf@hades.wkstn.nix>
Message-ID: <Marcel-1.53-1012152422-c72hjSf@riscpc.localdomain>

On Sun 12 Oct, Nix wrote:
> 
> On 12 Oct 2008, dylan at dylan.me.uk verbalised:
> > There is also RAID and LVM of course.
> 
> I'd be inclined to say that if you have several drives such that you can
> group them into N sets of roughly similar size where each set doesn't
> slow the others down when you access it, RAID-5/6 it instantly. With
> old drives, reliability is almost certainly going to be more important
> than storage space (those drives *will* die one day, and if you wanted
> storage space you wouldn't be using drives that old).
> 

   One possible use would be as a security camera system, with a large SCSI
e2fs drive storing pictures and one or two much smaller drives with the
rest, including /usr and /var/log. 

-- 
Chris Bell NEW alternative address: chrisbell at chrisbell.org.uk
Microsoft sells you Windows ... Linux gives you the whole house.


From abuse at cabal.org.uk  Sun Oct 12 16:31:44 2008
From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett)
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 16:31:44 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] Disc partitions
In-Reply-To: <Marcel-1.53-1012152422-c72hjSf@riscpc.localdomain>
References: <Marcel-1.53-1012152422-c72hjSf@riscpc.localdomain>
Message-ID: <C3353371-13EE-4B12-8DB3-762C24A3E49E@cabal.org.uk>

On 12 Oct 2008, at 16:24, Chris Bell wrote:
[...]
>   One possible use would be as a security camera system, with a  
> large SCSI
> e2fs drive storing pictures and one or two much smaller drives with  
> the
> rest, including /usr and /var/log.

Not that there really is such a thing as a large SCSI drive by today's  
standards, unless you are prepared to pay the achingly expensive price  
for them.

I <heart> my AEC-7720U SCSIDE adaptor which lets me put a large IDE  
disk (or DVD writer) on crummy old machines which only speak SCSI.  
Span seem to be about the only UK stockist of them, and the prices  
don't seem too out of whack:

http://www.span.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=1202&man_filter=82

Although if you want any more tiny SCSI disks, feel free to come and  
haul them away :)



From addw at phcomp.co.uk  Sun Oct 12 17:00:26 2008
From: addw at phcomp.co.uk (Alain Williams)
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 17:00:26 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] Disc partitions
In-Reply-To: <C3353371-13EE-4B12-8DB3-762C24A3E49E@cabal.org.uk>
References: <Marcel-1.53-1012152422-c72hjSf@riscpc.localdomain>
	<C3353371-13EE-4B12-8DB3-762C24A3E49E@cabal.org.uk>
Message-ID: <20081012160026.GZ11605@mint.phcomp.co.uk>

On Sun, Oct 12, 2008 at 04:31:44PM +0100, Peter Corlett wrote:

> I <heart> my AEC-7720U SCSIDE adaptor which lets me put a large IDE  
> disk (or DVD writer) on crummy old machines which only speak SCSI.  
> Span seem to be about the only UK stockist of them, and the prices  
> don't seem too out of whack:
> 
> http://www.span.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=1202&man_filter=82

That is nice ... lets you put many IDE disks into one machine, the 4 device IDE limit can be a pain.

They do a SATA one as well - although that is more expensive.

-- 
Alain Williams
Linux/GNU Consultant - Mail systems, Web sites, Networking, Programmer, IT Lecturer.
+44 (0) 787 668 0256  http://www.phcomp.co.uk/
Parliament Hill Computers Ltd. Registration Information: http://www.phcomp.co.uk/contact.php
Past chairman of UKUUG: http://www.ukuug.org/
#include <std_disclaimer.h>

From chrisbell at overview.demon.co.uk  Sun Oct 12 18:37:42 2008
From: chrisbell at overview.demon.co.uk (Chris Bell)
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 18:37:42 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [Gllug] Disc partitions
In-Reply-To: <C3353371-13EE-4B12-8DB3-762C24A3E49E@cabal.org.uk>
Message-ID: <Marcel-1.53-1012173742-9eehjSf@riscpc.localdomain>

On Sun 12 Oct, Peter Corlett wrote:
> 

> 
> Although if you want any more tiny SCSI disks, feel free to come and  
> haul them away :)
> 
> 
   Where from? Some of my Acorn boxes can use several, but are unable to
cope with anything large. I do have a couple of 73GB LV differential drives
which could take a reasonable amount of security video data, continuously
over-writing older data.


-- 
Chris Bell NEW alternative address: chrisbell at chrisbell.org.uk
Microsoft sells you Windows ... Linux gives you the whole house.


From abuse at cabal.org.uk  Sun Oct 12 18:54:01 2008
From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett)
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 18:54:01 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] Disc partitions
In-Reply-To: <Marcel-1.53-1012173742-9eehjSf@riscpc.localdomain>
References: <Marcel-1.53-1012173742-9eehjSf@riscpc.localdomain>
Message-ID: <04B5C08B-7A3D-422B-872C-2260FD825822@cabal.org.uk>

On 12 Oct 2008, at 18:37, Chris Bell wrote:
[...]
> Where from? Some of my Acorn boxes can use several, but are unable to
> cope with anything large. I do have a couple of 73GB LV differential  
> drives
> which could take a reasonable amount of security video data,  
> continuously
> over-writing older data.

It's all in Fulham, at least until I get fed up and throw it away. I  
started trying to pimp it out back in March:

http://tripe.cabal.org.uk/archives/2008/03/geekcycle-part-1.html
http://tripe.cabal.org.uk/archives/2008/03/geekcycle-part-2.html



From damion.yates at gmail.com  Sun Oct 12 21:16:03 2008
From: damion.yates at gmail.com (damion.yates at gmail.com)
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 21:16:03 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [Gllug] Disc partitions
In-Reply-To: <20081012160026.GZ11605@mint.phcomp.co.uk>
References: <Marcel-1.53-1012152422-c72hjSf@riscpc.localdomain>
	<C3353371-13EE-4B12-8DB3-762C24A3E49E@cabal.org.uk>
	<20081012160026.GZ11605@mint.phcomp.co.uk>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.0810122110200.19397@gilmore.trap.me.uk>

On Sun, 12 Oct 2008, Alain Williams wrote:

> On Sun, Oct 12, 2008 at 04:31:44PM +0100, Peter Corlett wrote:
 
[snipped]

> > http://www.span.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=1202&man_filter=82
> 
> That is nice ... lets you put many IDE disks into one machine, the 4
> device IDE limit can be a pain.
 
What 4 device limit?  There is a two device limit per channel.  For
performance it's advised you use only one, but you can have many
channels, I've seen a box with something like /dev/hda* to /dev/hdm*

There is a 4 primary partition limit if you're trying to remain
compatible with Windows, is that where your confusion comes from?

Damion 

From addw at phcomp.co.uk  Sun Oct 12 21:32:07 2008
From: addw at phcomp.co.uk (Alain Williams)
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 21:32:07 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] Disc partitions
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.0810122110200.19397@gilmore.trap.me.uk>
References: <Marcel-1.53-1012152422-c72hjSf@riscpc.localdomain>
	<C3353371-13EE-4B12-8DB3-762C24A3E49E@cabal.org.uk>
	<20081012160026.GZ11605@mint.phcomp.co.uk>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.0810122110200.19397@gilmore.trap.me.uk>
Message-ID: <20081012203207.GA11605@mint.phcomp.co.uk>

On Sun, Oct 12, 2008 at 09:16:03PM +0100, damion.yates at gmail.com wrote:
> On Sun, 12 Oct 2008, Alain Williams wrote:
> 
> > On Sun, Oct 12, 2008 at 04:31:44PM +0100, Peter Corlett wrote:
>  
> [snipped]
> 
> > > http://www.span.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=1202&man_filter=82
> > 
> > That is nice ... lets you put many IDE disks into one machine, the 4
> > device IDE limit can be a pain.
>  
> What 4 device limit?  There is a two device limit per channel.  For
> performance it's advised you use only one, but you can have many
> channels, I've seen a box with something like /dev/hda* to /dev/hdm*

Most PC motherboards have 2 IDE connections, thus max 4 disks.

> There is a 4 primary partition limit if you're trying to remain
> compatible with Windows, is that where your confusion comes from?

-- 
Alain Williams
Linux/GNU Consultant - Mail systems, Web sites, Networking, Programmer, IT Lecturer.
+44 (0) 787 668 0256  http://www.phcomp.co.uk/
Parliament Hill Computers Ltd. Registration Information: http://www.phcomp.co.uk/contact.php
Past chairman of UKUUG: http://www.ukuug.org/
#include <std_disclaimer.h>

From abuse at cabal.org.uk  Sun Oct 12 21:44:29 2008
From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett)
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 21:44:29 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] Disc partitions
In-Reply-To: <20081012203207.GA11605@mint.phcomp.co.uk>
References: <Marcel-1.53-1012152422-c72hjSf@riscpc.localdomain>
	<C3353371-13EE-4B12-8DB3-762C24A3E49E@cabal.org.uk>
	<20081012160026.GZ11605@mint.phcomp.co.uk>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.0810122110200.19397@gilmore.trap.me.uk>
	<20081012203207.GA11605@mint.phcomp.co.uk>
Message-ID: <BF154CFA-EDC5-4C7A-96A1-13214F38A397@cabal.org.uk>

On 12 Oct 2008, at 21:32, Alain Williams wrote:
[...]
> Most PC motherboards have 2 IDE connections, thus max 4 disks.

Plus another four or more by the cunning trick of plugging in a PCI  
IDE controller card...

Although it's rather moot as IDE is dead, even though the corpse  
continues to twitch. It won't be missed.



From peterachilds at gmail.com  Mon Oct 13 07:20:14 2008
From: peterachilds at gmail.com (Peter Childs)
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 07:20:14 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] Disc partitions
In-Reply-To: <BF154CFA-EDC5-4C7A-96A1-13214F38A397@cabal.org.uk>
References: <Marcel-1.53-1012152422-c72hjSf@riscpc.localdomain>
	<C3353371-13EE-4B12-8DB3-762C24A3E49E@cabal.org.uk>
	<20081012160026.GZ11605@mint.phcomp.co.uk>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.0810122110200.19397@gilmore.trap.me.uk>
	<20081012203207.GA11605@mint.phcomp.co.uk>
	<BF154CFA-EDC5-4C7A-96A1-13214F38A397@cabal.org.uk>
Message-ID: <a2de01dd0810122320x45c00584ref4d5d92b9f42300@mail.gmail.com>

2008/10/12 Peter Corlett <abuse at cabal.org.uk>:
> On 12 Oct 2008, at 21:32, Alain Williams wrote:
> [...]
>> Most PC motherboards have 2 IDE connections, thus max 4 disks.
>
> Plus another four or more by the cunning trick of plugging in a PCI
> IDE controller card...
>
> Although it's rather moot as IDE is dead, even though the corpse
> continues to twitch. It won't be missed.
>
>
> --
> Gllug mailing list  -  Gllug at gllug.org.uk
> http://lists.gllug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/gllug
>

PATA (or IDE as some people will call it) Is yet another piece of
hardware to fall in to decline much like RS232 and Printer Cables
before it, Forcing us all to upgrade when an upgrade is not strictly
necessary. Forcing even more cash into the likes of AMD and Intel and
so on.

Processors and Motherboards have nearly stopped getting faster and
faster and hence the machines without SATA still exists and are still
useful especially for running Linux (Unless you like running Windows
98)

PATA will continue to patter its rather over sized feet until all PATA
motherboards have died which may be quite a long time, Now that this 7
year old computer is still good enough for most desktop activites*

Peter Childs
*None Games, and High Graphics stuff

From rich at annexia.org  Mon Oct 13 13:50:12 2008
From: rich at annexia.org (Richard Jones)
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 13:50:12 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] Disc partitions
In-Reply-To: <BF154CFA-EDC5-4C7A-96A1-13214F38A397@cabal.org.uk>
References: <Marcel-1.53-1012152422-c72hjSf@riscpc.localdomain>
	<C3353371-13EE-4B12-8DB3-762C24A3E49E@cabal.org.uk>
	<20081012160026.GZ11605@mint.phcomp.co.uk>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.0810122110200.19397@gilmore.trap.me.uk>
	<20081012203207.GA11605@mint.phcomp.co.uk>
	<BF154CFA-EDC5-4C7A-96A1-13214F38A397@cabal.org.uk>
Message-ID: <20081013125012.GA12536@annexia.org>

On Sun, Oct 12, 2008 at 09:44:29PM +0100, Peter Corlett wrote:
> Although it's rather moot as IDE is dead, even though the corpse  
> continues to twitch. It won't be missed.

Well, IDE did provide a disk solution that actually worked, provided
cheap disks to the masses, didn't come in 20 different and mutually
incompatible varieties, and didn't have the "guess where I need to put
the termination" game.

SCSI certainly isn't missed over here.

Rich.

-- 
Richard Jones
Red Hat

From lists at frasco.org.uk  Mon Oct 13 13:54:06 2008
From: lists at frasco.org.uk (Frank Scott)
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 13:54:06 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] GLLUG at Olympia, October 2008
In-Reply-To: <Marcel-1.53-1012090737-d07hjSf@riscpc.localdomain>
References: <Marcel-1.53-1012090737-d07hjSf@riscpc.localdomain>
Message-ID: <20081013125406.GA10464@frasco.org.uk>

On Sun, Oct 12, 2008 at 10:07:37AM +0100, Chris Bell wrote:
>    GLLUG has requested a stand in the .org village at the Olympia, October
> 23 - 25, 2008 LinuxLive/MacLive/CreativePro Expo. I expect to be there for
> the entire time plus the rig day, who will be available to man the stand
> with me, (not just as a visitor), and when?
> 

I can manage the 23rd and the 24th

Frank
-- 
    .^.     .''`. 
    /V\    : ;`  :   Frank Scott  Sutton, London
  /(   )\  `. ''`
   ^^ ^^     `- 

From john at sinodun.org.uk  Mon Oct 13 20:48:37 2008
From: john at sinodun.org.uk (John Winters)
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 20:48:37 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] Disc partitions
In-Reply-To: <20081013125012.GA12536@annexia.org>
References: <Marcel-1.53-1012152422-c72hjSf@riscpc.localdomain>	<C3353371-13EE-4B12-8DB3-762C24A3E49E@cabal.org.uk>	<20081012160026.GZ11605@mint.phcomp.co.uk>	<alpine.DEB.2.00.0810122110200.19397@gilmore.trap.me.uk>	<20081012203207.GA11605@mint.phcomp.co.uk>	<BF154CFA-EDC5-4C7A-96A1-13214F38A397@cabal.org.uk>
	<20081013125012.GA12536@annexia.org>
Message-ID: <48F3A615.6080500@sinodun.org.uk>

Richard Jones wrote:
> On Sun, Oct 12, 2008 at 09:44:29PM +0100, Peter Corlett wrote:
>> Although it's rather moot as IDE is dead, even though the corpse  
>> continues to twitch. It won't be missed.
> 
> Well, IDE did provide a disk solution that actually worked, provided
> cheap disks to the masses, didn't come in 20 different and mutually
> incompatible varieties, and didn't have the "guess where I need to put
> the termination" game.

But did have the traditional mis-match between addressing methods,
resulting in yet another artificial and unnecessary limit on HD size.

John

From chrisbell at overview.demon.co.uk  Mon Oct 13 22:55:52 2008
From: chrisbell at overview.demon.co.uk (Chris Bell)
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 22:55:52 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [Gllug] High definition GLLUG logo requested for Linuxexpo
Message-ID: <Marcel-1.53-1013215552-256hjSf@riscpc.localdomain>

Hello,
   I have been asked by Lance Davis, lance at uklinux dot net, for a high
definition copy of the GLLUG logo for show banners.

-- 
Chris Bell NEW alternative address: chrisbell at chrisbell.org.uk
Microsoft sells you Windows ... Linux gives you the whole house.


From paul.munday at redsnapper.net  Mon Oct 13 11:38:38 2008
From: paul.munday at redsnapper.net (paul)
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 11:38:38 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] VACANCY: Linux Systems Admnistrator in SW London.
Message-ID: <1223894318.16756.51.camel@localhost.localdomain>

The following position is currently being advertised at the company I
work for. Please do not send applications to this (the sender's)
address. The correct address is listed towards the bottom of this email.

Linux Systems Administrator

Permanent. Salary £25,000 to £30,000 dependent on candidate and
experience.

Red Snapper Ltd are looking for a new Systems Administrator to join our
technical team. Your responsibilities will cover all aspects of system
administration supporting our co-located hosted web services. You will
be expected to manage security, configuration, monitoring and
maintenance of a number of established Linux based web, DNS and email
servers. Red Snapper in a web agency based in South West London
(Mortlake). 

The successful candidate must be professional, a good communicator, a
team player, posses a good sense of humour and above all must be
passionate and enthusiastic security, stability and efficiency. They
should be keen to broaden their skill sets and enthusiastic to take on
new challenges. The ideal candidate would be pro-active, self-managed
and able to work well independently.


Required Skills and Abilities:
* Design, installation, management, maintenance, budgeting, scheduling,
reports and recommendations across:
* Core Linux setup and configuration (Debian Linux)
* HTTP/HTTPS web services (Apache)
* Email services (postfix, spam assassin, etc..)
* Security - Firewalls, SSH/SSL, identity
* Network, routing and switch management.
* High Availability cluster using Heartbeat 2 and DBRD
* Auxiliary services maintenance and management (FTP, LDAP, DNS)
* Service failure prevention


Additional abilities:
* Office Network for Workstation management
* Samba
* Service failure prevention
* Hardware maintenance


Responsibilities:
* The role will involve the management of two clusters of web servers,
firewalls, DNS and email servers, in additon to office servers. Daily
workload will generally include:
* Installing, configuring and patching Debian operating systems and
associated software
* Security and access control
* Monitoring and maintaining our key services as above.
* Maintaining and providing service reports for both internal and client
use
* Maintaining and providing quarterly budgets, schedules and
recommendations
* Maintenance of backup procedures and operations
* Continuing to be aware of future issues, potential opportunities and
being able to make recommendations of them
* Transfer of IP/DNS between Class C networks
* Maintaining and recommending options for remote hosting / colo
facilities

How to Apply:
Please send your CV and a covering note explaining what qualifies you
for the position to sysad at redsnapper.net. If we are interested we shall
ask you to complete a test question, which will help us decide whether
to offer you an interview at our offices. More information available at
http://www.redsnapper.net/sysad



From tim at seacon.co.uk  Tue Oct 14 08:54:03 2008
From: tim at seacon.co.uk (t.clarke)
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008  8:54:03 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] job advert
Message-ID: <tim-081014.08542479.13181@seacon.co.uk>

>The successful candidate must be professional, a good communicator, a
>team player, posses a good sense of humour and above all must be
>passionate and enthusiastic security, stability and efficiency. They
>should be keen to broaden their skill sets and enthusiastic to take on
>new challenges. The ideal candidate would be pro-active, self-managed
>and able to work well independently.

Wow,  needs to be Mr Perfect then !
<pedant>
Though apparently doesn't need to be able to spell or to be proficient in the
use of english grammar  :-)
</pedant>

Tim

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This E-Mail (and any files transmitted with it) is intended solely for the use
of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed. If you have received it in
error please notify the sender and delete the message.

Seacon Terminals Ltd, Company No. 1547396, registered in England and Wales
Registered Office:  Tower Wharf, Northfleet, Kent, DA11 9BD, England


From gllug at dinkum.org.uk  Tue Oct 14 10:11:02 2008
From: gllug at dinkum.org.uk (Andre)
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 10:11:02 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] SATA card recommendations.
In-Reply-To: <732076a80810011447i10fbe235ub0a228dd678d9e0e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <732076a80810011447i10fbe235ub0a228dd678d9e0e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <48F46226.50900@dinkum.org.uk>

Benjamin Donnachie wrote:
> I'd be grateful for recommendations for inexpensive PCI SATA cards
> that work fully under Linux AND support 1TB drives.

I have one of these:
http://www.span.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=17142
working well in my Ubuntu Hardy Server, 2.6.24-19-generic kernel.

It has two 1TB drives attached (half of a raid array) and doesn't have
the disappearing partitions problem that my much more expensive Adaptec
card has.

Not tested throughput but it seems fine.

> 
> The version / distro is irrelevant as I can upgrade as required.  So
> far I only seem to find cards that satisfy only one of the criteria...
> :-/
> 
> Many thanks,
> 
> Ben



From abuse at cabal.org.uk  Tue Oct 14 10:59:25 2008
From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett)
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 10:59:25 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] SATA card recommendations.
In-Reply-To: <48F46226.50900@dinkum.org.uk>
References: <732076a80810011447i10fbe235ub0a228dd678d9e0e@mail.gmail.com>
	<48F46226.50900@dinkum.org.uk>
Message-ID: <20081014095925.GA29597@cabal.org.uk>

On Tue, Oct 14, 2008 at 10:11:02AM +0100, Andre wrote:
[...]
> I have one of these:
> http://www.span.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=17142 working
> well in my Ubuntu Hardy Server, 2.6.24-19-generic kernel.

I picked up something more or less identical for about a tenner at one of
those Tottenham Court Road shows. Had to pay 1.50 to get it, but of course
didn't need to pay delivery charges.

> It has two 1TB drives attached (half of a raid array) and doesn't have the
> disappearing partitions problem that my much more expensive Adaptec card
> has.

Unless it's a hardware RAID card, Adaptec is a waste of money and you're
just paying for the name. Some people might say s/Unless/Even/, but I've not
played with their current high-end stuff. I'm happy with the Adaptec 2400A
RAID controller I acquired a few years back.


From emacs.el at googlemail.com  Tue Oct 14 11:52:20 2008
From: emacs.el at googlemail.com (emacs.el)
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 11:52:20 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] SMS to email gateway
Message-ID: <48F479E4.1090400@googlemail.com>

Can anyone recommend a cheap SMS to email gateway service? I want users to 
be able to send a text to update a web calendar so it only needs to be one-way.

emacs.el

From andy at mac1systems.com  Tue Oct 14 11:57:12 2008
From: andy at mac1systems.com (Andy McGarty)
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 11:57:12 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] SMS to email gateway
In-Reply-To: <48F479E4.1090400@googlemail.com>
References: <48F479E4.1090400@googlemail.com>
Message-ID: <op.ui0gpmrn639efm@sl1-box>

On Tue, 14 Oct 2008 11:52:20 +0100, emacs.el <emacs.el at googlemail.com>  
wrote:

> Can anyone recommend a cheap SMS to email gateway service? I want users  
> to
> be able to send a text to update a web calendar so it only needs to be  
> one-way.
>
> emacs.el
try tmcsms.com as you can have cheaper inbound numbers that aren't  
expensive shortcodes.  It looks like a normal mobile number and costs the  
people sending the texts the same as a normal number.

Think they have a free trial.

Andy



From marcus at fatbeehive.com  Tue Oct 14 12:06:39 2008
From: marcus at fatbeehive.com (Marcus Taylor)
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 12:06:39 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] SMS to email gateway
In-Reply-To: <48F479E4.1090400@googlemail.com>
References: <48F479E4.1090400@googlemail.com>
Message-ID: <48F47D3F.8070205@fatbeehive.com>

emacs.el wrote:
> Can anyone recommend a cheap SMS to email gateway service? I want users to 
> be able to send a text to update a web calendar so it only needs to be one-way.
> 
> emacs.el

I have used AQL which are resonable if you use quite a few texts - also 
you can have a vodafone number which is handy if your users have a 
vodefone phone with free/bundled texts ;)

http://aql.com/virtual_mobile/

-- 
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
|     Marcus Taylor     |                            Tel: 0207 7398704 |
+-----------------------+                 Email: marcus at fatbeehive.com |
| Systems Administrator |               Web: http://www.fatbeehive.com |
|    Fat Beehive Ltd    | 2nd Floor, 59 Rivington St, London, EC2a 3QQ |
+-----------------------+----------------------------------------------+

From martin at hinterlands.org  Tue Oct 14 12:44:59 2008
From: martin at hinterlands.org (Martin A. Brooks)
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 12:44:59 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] job advert
In-Reply-To: <tim-081014.08542479.13181@seacon.co.uk>
References: <tim-081014.08542479.13181@seacon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <48F4863B.5000202@hinterlands.org>

t.clarke wrote:
> Wow,  needs to be Mr Perfect then !
>   

No need for a space between "then" and "!".

> <pedant>
> Though apparently doesn't need to be able to spell or to be proficient in the
> use of english grammar  :-)
> </pedant>
>   

English sentences end with a full stop.


From tim at seacon.co.uk  Tue Oct 14 12:47:53 2008
From: tim at seacon.co.uk (t.clarke)
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 12:47:53 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] job advert
In-Reply-To: <48F4863B.5000202@hinterlands.org>
References: <48F4863B.5000202@hinterlands.org>
	<tim-081014.08542479.13181@seacon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <tim-081014.12483051.04975@seacon.co.uk>

So,  who ever PUNCTUATES emails perfectly?



From td at bloogaloo.co.uk  Tue Oct 14 12:56:37 2008
From: td at bloogaloo.co.uk (tid)
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 12:56:37 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] job advert
In-Reply-To: <tim-081014.12483051.04975@seacon.co.uk>
References: <tim-081014.08542479.13181@seacon.co.uk>
	<48F4863B.5000202@hinterlands.org>
	<tim-081014.12483051.04975@seacon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <1c5b64b80810140456y7804d560ld7150b3413925042@mail.gmail.com>

more interesting is the requirement for "a sense of humour". How are
they going to
evaluate that and is it a show stopper if the candidate hasn't got one?

Granted that If you work in Sysadmin, you *need* a sense of humour to
survive some
of the stupider things that users & management thrust upon you, but
you don't see
many job adverts for doctors saying "must have a sense of humour".

Tid.

2008/10/14 t.clarke <tim at seacon.co.uk>:
> So,  who ever PUNCTUATES emails perfectly?
>
>
> --
> Gllug mailing list  -  Gllug at gllug.org.uk
> http://lists.gllug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/gllug
>

From farnsaw at stonedoor.com  Tue Oct 14 13:09:59 2008
From: farnsaw at stonedoor.com (Andrew Farnsworth)
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 08:09:59 -0400
Subject: [Gllug] job advert
Message-ID: <29724.1223986199@stonedoor.com>

I have a sense of humor.  I keep it safely locked in my desk drawer.

Andy

On Tue Oct 14  7:56 , tid  sent:

>more interesting is the requirement for "a sense of humour". How are
>they going to
>evaluate that and is it a show stopper if the candidate hasn't got one?
>
>Granted that If you work in Sysadmin, you *need* a sense of humour to
>survive some
>of the stupider things that users & management thrust upon you, but
>you don't see
>many job adverts for doctors saying "must have a sense of humour".
>
>Tid.
>
>2008/10/14 t.clarke tim at seacon.co.uk>:
>> So,  who ever PUNCTUATES emails perfectly?
>>
>>
>> --
>> Gllug mailing list  -  Gllug at gllug.org.uk
>> http://lists.gllug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/gllug
>>
>-- 
>Gllug mailing list  -  Gllug at gllug.org.uk
>http://lists.gllug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/gllug



From paul at ma1.se  Tue Oct 14 13:13:31 2008
From: paul at ma1.se (Paul Lee)
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 13:13:31 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] job advert
In-Reply-To: <1c5b64b80810140456y7804d560ld7150b3413925042@mail.gmail.com>
References: <tim-081014.08542479.13181@seacon.co.uk>	<48F4863B.5000202@hinterlands.org>	<tim-081014.12483051.04975@seacon.co.uk>
	<1c5b64b80810140456y7804d560ld7150b3413925042@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <48F48CEB.2090200@ma1.se>

tid wrote:
> more interesting is the requirement for "a sense of humour". How are
> they going to
> evaluate that and is it a show stopper if the candidate hasn't got one?
> 
> Granted that If you work in Sysadmin, you *need* a sense of humour to
> survive some
> of the stupider things that users & management thrust upon you, but
> you don't see
> many job adverts for doctors saying "must have a sense of humour".
> 
> Tid.
> 

Any potential employeers need a sense of humour to run the gauntlet of 
running a job advert on this list! ;o)


Paul

From paul at ma1.se  Tue Oct 14 13:15:00 2008
From: paul at ma1.se (Paul Lee)
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 13:15:00 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] SMS to email gateway
In-Reply-To: <48F479E4.1090400@googlemail.com>
References: <48F479E4.1090400@googlemail.com>
Message-ID: <48F48D44.10806@ma1.se>

emacs.el wrote:
> Can anyone recommend a cheap SMS to email gateway service? I want users to 
> be able to send a text to update a web calendar so it only needs to be one-way.
> 
> emacs.el

Hi

Try aql.com.Used them for a few years.


Paul

From ali at anarres-worlds.org  Tue Oct 14 16:09:16 2008
From: ali at anarres-worlds.org (Alison Young)
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 16:09:16 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] job advert
In-Reply-To: <1c5b64b80810140456y7804d560ld7150b3413925042@mail.gmail.com>
References: <tim-081014.08542479.13181@seacon.co.uk>	<48F4863B.5000202@hinterlands.org>	<tim-081014.12483051.04975@seacon.co.uk>
	<1c5b64b80810140456y7804d560ld7150b3413925042@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <48F4B61C.5050007@anarres-worlds.org>

tid wrote:
> more interesting is the requirement for "a sense of humour". How are
> they going to
> evaluate that and is it a show stopper if the candidate hasn't got one?

I've seen that kind of thing in adverts a few times now, and the 
majority of them have come across as bad phrasing for a reasonable 
requirement: personal resilience and effectiveness in the face of 
pressure with maybe a dash of camaraderie with the rest of the team.

Then there's the other ads, where that phrase is a sign that you'll be 
exposed to every bad management practice while being expected to work 
miracles by the rest of the company. The expression "If you can't take a 
joke, you shouldn't have joined" is what they were actually aiming for.


On a similar topic, one of the strangest requirements I've seen in a job 
ad was that any new hire would be expected to join in with the drinking 
on Friday nights. Unfortunately I didn't keep a bookmark of it so I 
can't check exact wording, but I was really quite surprised that made it 
past HR.


> Granted that If you work in Sysadmin, you *need* a sense of humour to
> survive some
> of the stupider things that users & management thrust upon you, 
> but you don't see
> many job adverts for doctors saying "must have a sense of humour".

I suspect the medical profession have their own code phrases for their 
job ads. Not sure what "workaholic stress-puppy" would be translated to, 
though...


Cheers,

Ali

-- 
Alison Young
ali at anarres-worlds.org
0777 32 96 156

From mail-lists at karan.org  Tue Oct 14 16:49:52 2008
From: mail-lists at karan.org (Karanbir Singh)
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 16:49:52 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] SMS to email gateway
In-Reply-To: <48F479E4.1090400@googlemail.com>
References: <48F479E4.1090400@googlemail.com>
Message-ID: <48F4BFA0.9000309@karan.org>

emacs.el wrote:
> Can anyone recommend a cheap SMS to email gateway service? I want users to 
> be able to send a text to update a web calendar so it only needs to be one-way.

why not just connect a pay-as-you-go phone to your computer and people 
send text msgs there ?

-- 
Karanbir Singh : http://www.karan.org/  : 2522219 at icq

From emacs.el at googlemail.com  Tue Oct 14 18:17:25 2008
From: emacs.el at googlemail.com (emacs.el)
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 18:17:25 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] SMS to email gateway
In-Reply-To: <48F4BFA0.9000309@karan.org>
References: <48F479E4.1090400@googlemail.com> <48F4BFA0.9000309@karan.org>
Message-ID: <48F4D425.6020101@googlemail.com>

Karanbir Singh wrote:
> emacs.el wrote:
>> Can anyone recommend a cheap SMS to email gateway service? I want users to 
>> be able to send a text to update a web calendar so it only needs to be one-way.
> 
> why not just connect a pay-as-you-go phone to your computer and people 
> send text msgs there ?
> 

What kind of connector between the phone and the Linux machine? I'd also 
need to get it transferring messages automatically so that a script can 
retrieve values to update the web calendar. What kind of Linux/OSS programs 
can accomplish this?

emacs.el

From john at sinodun.org.uk  Tue Oct 14 21:14:33 2008
From: john at sinodun.org.uk (John Winters)
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 21:14:33 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] SMS to email gateway
In-Reply-To: <48F4D425.6020101@googlemail.com>
References: <48F479E4.1090400@googlemail.com> <48F4BFA0.9000309@karan.org>
	<48F4D425.6020101@googlemail.com>
Message-ID: <48F4FDA9.1030403@sinodun.org.uk>

emacs.el wrote:
> Karanbir Singh wrote:
>> emacs.el wrote:
>>> Can anyone recommend a cheap SMS to email gateway service? I want users to 
>>> be able to send a text to update a web calendar so it only needs to be one-way.
>> why not just connect a pay-as-you-go phone to your computer and people 
>> send text msgs there ?
>>
> 
> What kind of connector between the phone and the Linux machine?

If you get one of these wireless broadband dongles then that gives you
the ability to send and receive SMS messages from the PC.  I'm not aware
of an API, but there exists a program called Vodafone Mobile Connect
Card driver for Linux, and it's open source so you can always extract
from it the bit that you want.

HTH
John

From damion.yates at gmail.com  Wed Oct 15 02:35:34 2008
From: damion.yates at gmail.com (damion.yates at gmail.com)
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 02:35:34 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [Gllug] SMS to email gateway
In-Reply-To: <48F4D425.6020101@googlemail.com>
References: <48F479E4.1090400@googlemail.com> <48F4BFA0.9000309@karan.org>
	<48F4D425.6020101@googlemail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.0810150226220.19432@gilmore.trap.me.uk>

On Tue, 14 Oct 2008, emacs.el wrote:

> Karanbir Singh wrote:
> > emacs.el wrote:
> >> Can anyone recommend a cheap SMS to email gateway service? I want
> >> users to be able to send a text to update a web calendar so it only
> >> needs to be one-way.
> > 
> > why not just connect a pay-as-you-go phone to your computer and
> > people send text msgs there ?
> > 
> 
> What kind of connector between the phone and the Linux machine? I'd
> also need to get it transferring messages automatically so that a
> script can retrieve values to update the web calendar. What kind of
> Linux/OSS programs can accomplish this?

It depends on the phone, old ones used serial which works trivially,
newer will need usb or bluetooth.  They all appear as a serial device,
bluetooth using rfcomm to create a /dev/rfcomm0, plus loads of faffing
depending on how automated your distribution is and how lucky you are,
usb should work by default giving a /dev/ttyUSB0 device.  You might have
to fight, add usbIDs to kernel headers, or piss around with pairing and
dbus and gtk only popups for PINs and other such mess.

Once you have a serial device attached to the phone, modem style AT
commands are sent to control the phone.  Nokia's can be controlled via
gnokii and some fork which can do things like take a photo and pull the
image off automatically over BT (sneaky).  There are almost certainly
loads of tools people have written, just do some cuil/yahoo/live/google
searches.

Otherwise you could just use basic shell scripts and echo stuff and read
from /dev/<serial device>

A 10 second google search got me:
http://designbuildtestrepeat.wordpress.com/2008/04/29/huawei-e220-on-linux-for-sms/

You'll need to google for your phone although it's likely to be similar
per manufacturer.  You can see from this article you can send and
receive SMSes quite easily.

There are limits to the speed this can work at vs an expensive pay-for
SMS service, you're always having to poll and pull off SMSes from a SIM
as fast as you can.

Damion - it's 02:30 can't sleep, working on a remote BT apple keyboard
uncomfortably in the lounge squinting at my 1920x1080 hdmi telly (which
is why I'm up late having just got it working, what a waste of time!
need to plug my normal 1024x768 monitor back in and sit on my desk
chair!).

From mail-lists at karan.org  Wed Oct 15 12:39:30 2008
From: mail-lists at karan.org (Karanbir Singh)
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 12:39:30 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] SMS to email gateway
In-Reply-To: <48F4D425.6020101@googlemail.com>
References: <48F479E4.1090400@googlemail.com> <48F4BFA0.9000309@karan.org>
	<48F4D425.6020101@googlemail.com>
Message-ID: <48F5D672.7060809@karan.org>

emacs.el wrote:
> What kind of connector between the phone and the Linux machine? I'd also 
> need to get it transferring messages automatically so that a script can 
> retrieve values to update the web calendar. What kind of Linux/OSS programs 
> can accomplish this?
> 
> emacs.el

depending on how creative you want to get : http://kannel.org/

Although, if you've never done this before, go with Damion's 
recommendations first. Get the serial links up and use the bash scripts etc.

-- 
Karanbir Singh : http://www.karan.org/  : 2522219 at icq

From bap at shrdlu.com  Wed Oct 15 13:41:23 2008
From: bap at shrdlu.com (Bernard Peek)
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 13:41:23 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] job advert
In-Reply-To: <48F4B61C.5050007@anarres-worlds.org>
References: <tim-081014.08542479.13181@seacon.co.uk>
	<48F4863B.5000202@hinterlands.org>	<tim-081014.12483051.04975@seacon.co.uk>
	<1c5b64b80810140456y7804d560ld7150b3413925042@mail.gmail.com>
	<48F4B61C.5050007@anarres-worlds.org>
Message-ID: <1224074483.3137.14.camel@klaatu.shrdlu.com>

On Tue, 2008-10-14 at 16:09 +0100, Alison Young wrote:

> On a similar topic, one of the strangest requirements I've seen in a job 
> ad was that any new hire would be expected to join in with the drinking 
> on Friday nights. Unfortunately I didn't keep a bookmark of it so I 
> can't check exact wording, but I was really quite surprised that made it 
> past HR.

I once hired someone who was apparently a recovering alcoholic. After
that debacle I always checked with the people I hired. It was a very
boozy company and a recovering alcoholic didn't stand a chance. I'm sure
that if he had said something at interview we could have worked
something out.




From tjoshi at lonix.org.uk  Wed Oct 15 15:18:19 2008
From: tjoshi at lonix.org.uk (Tushar Joshi)
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 15:18:19 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [Gllug] Lonix - London Linux User Group (LinuxExpo/Mac Expo Meeting)
Message-ID: <1779-1224080186305315@lonix.org.uk>

Hi ,

Here are the details of the next meeting for Lonix,

Date:  Thursday 23 Oct 2008 
Time:  6.00 pm onwards
Place: Prince Albert, 11 Pembridge Rd, London, W11 3HQ
Map: http://tinyurl.com/princealbertnh 
Nearest Tube:  Nottinghill Gate (central/district/circle)  
Phone: 07980224772

This year the Linux Expo joins with the Mac Expo to form the Creative Pro Expo, so basically 2 shows at the same time in the same place. Lonix as usual have a stand here (volunteers needed!) and we'll be meeting up after the show Thursday at about 6.00pm.

You must register here to gain FREE entrance to the show.

http://www.linuxexpolive.co.uk/ which is FREE at the moment, but be quick! The show is on the Thursday, Friday and Saturday, but of course the best day to arrive is Thursday which is the same day as the Lonix meeting in the evening (kill two penguins with one stone).

If you'd like to help out at the show on any of the days, then please get in contact letting me know your availability. We'll have some Lonix merchandise to give away at the stand so anyone with a bit of time free please come and help out, especially since it's 3 days this year.

Nearest tube for Olympia Exhibition Center is Olympia station or a short walk from Barons Court. 

The meeting afterwards is in the Price Albert in Notting Hill and a short bus journey from Olympia. We have the back room reserved for us with a private waitress to serve us. This pub has a variety of drinks (real ale, beer and lemonade) as well as some excellent pub food. 

For those coming to the pub after the show, we'll be meeting up at the Lonix stand at 5.45 to head over in a group. As usual Linux talk, chat and networking will continue into the night.




Tushar Joshi


This e-mail was sent to you because you have subscribed to the Lonix
meetings notification e-mail list. If you have any questions concerning
this please contact us on www.lonix.org.uk/?showContact

You can get out by logging in and then clicking on mailling list on the left and then 
choose the relevant list. This will remove you once and for all. 

Your Lonix Account Details are:
Login via : http://www.lonix.org.uk
Username: gllug at linux.co.uk
Password: ******



From sanelson at gmail.com  Thu Oct 16 12:53:36 2008
From: sanelson at gmail.com (Stephen Nelson-Smith)
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 12:53:36 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] SCSI Cable
Message-ID: <b6131fdc0810160453n746347fcj8d219eb6c0462ded@mail.gmail.com>

Anyone in / nr North London today got a SCSI cable they could part
with (or lend)?

S.

From abuse at cabal.org.uk  Thu Oct 16 12:56:51 2008
From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett)
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 12:56:51 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] SCSI Cable
In-Reply-To: <b6131fdc0810160453n746347fcj8d219eb6c0462ded@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b6131fdc0810160453n746347fcj8d219eb6c0462ded@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20081016115651.GA9124@cabal.org.uk>

On Thu, Oct 16, 2008 at 12:53:36PM +0100, Stephen Nelson-Smith wrote:
> Anyone in / nr North London today got a SCSI cable they could part
> with (or lend)?

SCSI cables come in many shapes and sizes. Could you be more specific?


From mintywalker at gmail.com  Thu Oct 16 13:12:24 2008
From: mintywalker at gmail.com (Minty)
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 13:12:24 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] SMS to email gateway
In-Reply-To: <48F4D425.6020101@googlemail.com>
References: <48F479E4.1090400@googlemail.com> <48F4BFA0.9000309@karan.org>
	<48F4D425.6020101@googlemail.com>
Message-ID: <e1868cfe0810160512s7230e624ye95f07075f06fa20@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Oct 14, 2008 at 6:17 PM, emacs.el <emacs.el at googlemail.com> wrote:
> What kind of connector between the phone and the Linux machine? I'd also
> need to get it transferring messages automatically so that a script can
> retrieve values to update the web calendar. What kind of Linux/OSS programs
> can accomplish this?

http://matt.bottrell.com.au/archives/170-Nagios-2-way-alerting-via-SMS-Part-1.html

has a worked example

From adrian at newgolddream.dyndns.info  Thu Oct 16 13:58:22 2008
From: adrian at newgolddream.dyndns.info (Adrian McMenamin)
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 13:58:22 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [Gllug] is LaTex the way to do this?
Message-ID: <61099.85.118.17.158.1224161902.squirrel@newgolddream.dyndns.info>

One product I am often asked to produce at work is a graphic based on a
series of coentric segments of circles, bisected at various points and
with names  in the segments. (Apologies for the poor description - think
of a flan made of three rings and cut into thirds or quarters).

The internal design team have been doing this as a personal favour on an
ad hoc basis, but I'd like to get away from that by creating something
that allows me to produce an eps or similar file by pressing a button,
adding the names through a web or similar interface and off we go.

Naturally I'd like to use free software tools.

So is LaTex the way to do this?


From sanelson at gmail.com  Thu Oct 16 14:23:36 2008
From: sanelson at gmail.com (Stephen Nelson-Smith)
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 14:23:36 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] SCSI Cable
In-Reply-To: <20081016115651.GA9124@cabal.org.uk>
References: <b6131fdc0810160453n746347fcj8d219eb6c0462ded@mail.gmail.com>
	<20081016115651.GA9124@cabal.org.uk>
Message-ID: <b6131fdc0810160623s90706d5m7fefa8cf5414895f@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Oct 16, 2008 at 12:56 PM, Peter Corlett <abuse at cabal.org.uk> wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 16, 2008 at 12:53:36PM +0100, Stephen Nelson-Smith wrote:
>> Anyone in / nr North London today got a SCSI cable they could part
>> with (or lend)?
>
> SCSI cables come in many shapes and sizes. Could you be more specific?

LVD SCSI 68-pin HD to HD.

S.

From gllug at eco.li  Fri Oct 17 10:42:30 2008
From: gllug at eco.li (Dan Kolb)
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 10:42:30 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] is LaTex the way to do this?
In-Reply-To: <61099.85.118.17.158.1224161902.squirrel@newgolddream.dyndns.info>
References: <61099.85.118.17.158.1224161902.squirrel@newgolddream.dyndns.info>
Message-ID: <20081017094230.GQ7492@hades.eco.li>

On Thu, Oct 16, 2008 at 01:58:22PM +0100, Adrian McMenamin wrote:
> Naturally I'd like to use free software tools.
> 
> So is LaTex the way to do this?

What about xfig?
-- 
Acid absorbs 47 times its own weight in excess Reality.

From sean at practicalweb.co.uk  Fri Oct 17 11:25:14 2008
From: sean at practicalweb.co.uk (Sean Burlington)
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 11:25:14 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] is LaTex the way to do this?
In-Reply-To: <61099.85.118.17.158.1224161902.squirrel@newgolddream.dyndns.info>
References: <61099.85.118.17.158.1224161902.squirrel@newgolddream.dyndns.info>
Message-ID: <48F8680A.7020303@practicalweb.co.uk>

Adrian McMenamin wrote:
> One product I am often asked to produce at work is a graphic based on a
> series of coentric segments of circles, bisected at various points and
> with names  in the segments. (Apologies for the poor description - think
> of a flan made of three rings and cut into thirds or quarters).

Is this a pie chart variation?

jfreechart might do it

http://www.jfree.org/jfreechart/samples.html

It's LGPL - with public API docs - but the full docs (with example code 
ect) are paid for.

The webstart demo shows the chart types available - the show a simpler 
version of what you describe - it's not clear if the full thing is 
available.



-- 

Sean Burlington

www.practicalweb.co.uk


From sanelson at gmail.com  Fri Oct 17 11:54:23 2008
From: sanelson at gmail.com (Stephen Nelson-Smith)
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 11:54:23 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] Timer Program
Message-ID: <b6131fdc0810170354x103bd358s27b8fcf2cf0854c4@mail.gmail.com>

I don't know if any of you are aware of the minuteur program for OSX.
It's a simple countdown timer with a pleasant interface, which starts
from a defined amount of time and counts down.  When it gets to the
end it either rings a bell, or fills the screen with a notification
saying "Time's up!"

I've searched high and low for a Linux equivalent that doesn't suck.
The gnome timer applet doesn't seem to want to make a noise louder
than an almost inaudible "click", and I've tried pointing it at a wav
file of a bell.  The kalarm program is a bit better - but it doesn't
have a nice interface, and it's notification will only appear on the
desktop on which it was launched - not all desktops.

Can anyone point me to something better?

S.

From chrisbell at overview.demon.co.uk  Fri Oct 17 11:58:29 2008
From: chrisbell at overview.demon.co.uk (Chris Bell)
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 11:58:29 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [Gllug] GLLUG at Olympia, October 2008
In-Reply-To: <Marcel-1.53-1012090737-d07hjSf@riscpc.localdomain>
Message-ID: <Marcel-1.53-1017105829-3e8hjSf@riscpc.localdomain>

On Sun 12 Oct, Chris Bell wrote:
> 
> Hello,
>    GLLUG has requested a stand in the .org village at the Olympia, October
> 23 - 25, 2008 LinuxLive/MacLive/CreativePro Expo. I expect to be there for
> the entire time plus the rig day, who will be available to man the stand
> with me, (not just as a visitor), and when?
> 
   I have to apply for exhibitor and contractor passes. I have some names,
but are there any to be added before I send the forms?


-- 
Chris Bell NEW alternative address: chrisbell at chrisbell.org.uk
Microsoft sells you Windows ... Linux gives you the whole house.


From tethys at gmail.com  Fri Oct 17 12:40:36 2008
From: tethys at gmail.com (- Tethys)
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 12:40:36 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] Timer Program
In-Reply-To: <b6131fdc0810170354x103bd358s27b8fcf2cf0854c4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b6131fdc0810170354x103bd358s27b8fcf2cf0854c4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <264d99b00810170440l7b73ce86m1614782245d6cd47@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Oct 17, 2008 at 11:54 AM, Stephen Nelson-Smith
<sanelson at gmail.com> wrote:

> I don't know if any of you are aware of the minuteur program for OSX.
> It's a simple countdown timer with a pleasant interface, which starts
> from a defined amount of time and counts down.  When it gets to the
> end it either rings a bell, or fills the screen with a notification
> saying "Time's up!"

Perhaps not as slick a user interface, but this should work well enough:

echo 'aplay /path/to/noise.wav && xmessage -display :0 "Time is up"' |
at "now +25 minutes"

Tet

-- 
Perl is like vise grips. You can do anything with it but it is the
wrong tool for every job. -- Bruce Eckel

From sanelson at gmail.com  Fri Oct 17 12:47:23 2008
From: sanelson at gmail.com (Stephen Nelson-Smith)
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 12:47:23 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] Timer Program
In-Reply-To: <264d99b00810170440l7b73ce86m1614782245d6cd47@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b6131fdc0810170354x103bd358s27b8fcf2cf0854c4@mail.gmail.com>
	<264d99b00810170440l7b73ce86m1614782245d6cd47@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <b6131fdc0810170447o12b805efy33d8e272804b281e@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Tet,

> Perhaps not as slick a user interface, but this should work well enough:
>
> echo 'aplay /path/to/noise.wav && xmessage -display :0 "Time is up"' |
> at "now +25 minutes"

Yes - that's perfect.  I couldn't remember the command-line command.
Just checking the xmessage docs to see how to make it fill the screen.

S.

From rich at annexia.org  Fri Oct 17 13:03:04 2008
From: rich at annexia.org (Richard Jones)
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 13:03:04 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] is LaTex the way to do this?
In-Reply-To: <61099.85.118.17.158.1224161902.squirrel@newgolddream.dyndns.info>
References: <61099.85.118.17.158.1224161902.squirrel@newgolddream.dyndns.info>
Message-ID: <20081017120304.GA21901@annexia.org>

On Thu, Oct 16, 2008 at 01:58:22PM +0100, Adrian McMenamin wrote:
> One product I am often asked to produce at work is a graphic based on a
> series of coentric segments of circles, bisected at various points and
> with names  in the segments. (Apologies for the poor description - think
> of a flan made of three rings and cut into thirds or quarters).
> 
> The internal design team have been doing this as a personal favour on an
> ad hoc basis, but I'd like to get away from that by creating something
> that allows me to produce an eps or similar file by pressing a button,
> adding the names through a web or similar interface and off we go.
> 
> Naturally I'd like to use free software tools.
> 
> So is LaTex the way to do this?

Maybe inkscape?

I just drew three circles and saved it as the native SVG format.  The
result is here:

http://www.annexia.org/tmp/circles.svg.txt

It looks fairly comprehensible to me, either to do further editing in
inkscape, or to edit it by hand.

The advantage of SVG over, say, the .fig format is that it should be
more widely understood by tools and applications on that "other
platform".

Rich.

-- 
Richard Jones
Red Hat

From rich at annexia.org  Fri Oct 17 13:04:20 2008
From: rich at annexia.org (Richard Jones)
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 13:04:20 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] is LaTex the way to do this?
In-Reply-To: <48F8680A.7020303@practicalweb.co.uk>
References: <61099.85.118.17.158.1224161902.squirrel@newgolddream.dyndns.info>
	<48F8680A.7020303@practicalweb.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20081017120420.GB21901@annexia.org>

On Fri, Oct 17, 2008 at 11:25:14AM +0100, Sean Burlington wrote:
> jfreechart might do it
> 
> http://www.jfree.org/jfreechart/samples.html

Chartjunk-tastic.  You'd think that people who do charts for a living
would have read Tufte ...

Rich.

-- 
Richard Jones
Red Hat

From rich at annexia.org  Fri Oct 17 13:08:16 2008
From: rich at annexia.org (Richard Jones)
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 13:08:16 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] Timer Program
In-Reply-To: <264d99b00810170440l7b73ce86m1614782245d6cd47@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b6131fdc0810170354x103bd358s27b8fcf2cf0854c4@mail.gmail.com>
	<264d99b00810170440l7b73ce86m1614782245d6cd47@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20081017120816.GC21901@annexia.org>

On Fri, Oct 17, 2008 at 12:40:36PM +0100, - Tethys wrote:
> Perhaps not as slick a user interface, but this should work well enough:
> 
> echo 'aplay /path/to/noise.wav && xmessage -display :0 "Time is up"' |
> at "now +25 minutes"

That's funny ... I actually did something like that once when I was
stuck in a seedy hotel with only my laptop and no alarm clock.

Rich.

-- 
Richard Jones
Red Hat

From tethys at gmail.com  Fri Oct 17 13:10:58 2008
From: tethys at gmail.com (- Tethys)
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 13:10:58 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] is LaTex the way to do this?
In-Reply-To: <20081017120304.GA21901@annexia.org>
References: <61099.85.118.17.158.1224161902.squirrel@newgolddream.dyndns.info>
	<20081017120304.GA21901@annexia.org>
Message-ID: <264d99b00810170510t283d443bl9c203de24b17cd83@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Oct 17, 2008 at 1:03 PM, Richard Jones <rich at annexia.org> wrote:

> Maybe inkscape?

I was thinking of Inkscape, too, primarily because it's SVG. That
means you should be able to stick it on a web page, and have end users
fill in the labels, and then use exactly the same drawing code to
produce the final output. Inkscape has some basic support for
scripting, so the process can be automated when the user hits the Go
button on the web page.

Tet

-- 
Perl is like vise grips. You can do anything with it but it is the
wrong tool for every job. -- Bruce Eckel

From johngeoffreywalker at yahoo.co.uk  Fri Oct 17 14:00:24 2008
From: johngeoffreywalker at yahoo.co.uk (John G Walker)
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 14:00:24 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] Timer Program
In-Reply-To: <20081017120816.GC21901@annexia.org>
References: <b6131fdc0810170354x103bd358s27b8fcf2cf0854c4@mail.gmail.com>
	<264d99b00810170440l7b73ce86m1614782245d6cd47@mail.gmail.com>
	<20081017120816.GC21901@annexia.org>
Message-ID: <20081017140024.0dcbdfcd@Rosebud.Harmony>



On Fri, 17 Oct 2008 13:08:16 +0100 Richard Jones <rich at annexia.org>
wrote:

> > echo 'aplay /path/to/noise.wav && xmessage -display :0 "Time is
> > up"' | at "now +25 minutes"  
> 
> That's funny ... I actually did something like that once when I was
> stuck in a seedy hotel with only my laptop and no alarm clock.

Did you use the button option to create a snooze function?

-- 
 All the best,
 John

From john at sinodun.org.uk  Fri Oct 17 14:20:28 2008
From: john at sinodun.org.uk (John Winters)
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 14:20:28 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] Is Dia the right tool for this job?
Message-ID: <48F8911C.8020509@sinodun.org.uk>

I'm trying to draw some simple maths problems using Dia.  I need some 
circles with chords and diameters inside.

I can draw a circle in Dia no problem, and lines radiating out from the 
circle are dead easy too, but it seems to flatly refuse to draw lines 
inside the circle - you get an orange shadow round the circle and a dot 
in the centre.

Am I missing something obvious?  Is there a better tool for this kind of 
thing?

TIA,
John

From me at byron.me.uk  Fri Oct 17 14:44:27 2008
From: me at byron.me.uk (Byron Schlemmer)
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 14:44:27 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] Is Dia the right tool for this job?
In-Reply-To: <48F8911C.8020509@sinodun.org.uk>
References: <48F8911C.8020509@sinodun.org.uk>
Message-ID: <71888cb20810170644y35142276q1853511c9a43710b@mail.gmail.com>

2008/10/17 John Winters <john at sinodun.org.uk>:
> I'm trying to draw some simple maths problems using Dia.  I need some
> circles with chords and diameters inside.
>
> I can draw a circle in Dia no problem, and lines radiating out from the
> circle are dead easy too, but it seems to flatly refuse to draw lines
> inside the circle - you get an orange shadow round the circle and a dot
> in the centre.
>
> Am I missing something obvious?  Is there a better tool for this kind of
> thing?

Yes,

http://www.omnigroup.com/applications/omnigraffle/

:)

-- 

    byron

From tethys at gmail.com  Fri Oct 17 14:51:08 2008
From: tethys at gmail.com (- Tethys)
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 14:51:08 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] Is Dia the right tool for this job?
In-Reply-To: <48F8911C.8020509@sinodun.org.uk>
References: <48F8911C.8020509@sinodun.org.uk>
Message-ID: <264d99b00810170651g64062ea2gb9c52a1eb19daefb@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Oct 17, 2008 at 2:20 PM, John Winters <john at sinodun.org.uk> wrote:

> I can draw a circle in Dia no problem, and lines radiating out from the
> circle are dead easy too, but it seems to flatly refuse to draw lines
> inside the circle - you get an orange shadow round the circle and a dot
> in the centre.

Turn off "Snap to objects" in the View menu. Although I'd probably use
Inkscape rather than Dia anyway.

Tet

-- 
Perl is like vise grips. You can do anything with it but it is the
wrong tool for every job. -- Bruce Eckel

From john at sinodun.org.uk  Fri Oct 17 16:27:02 2008
From: john at sinodun.org.uk (John Winters)
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 16:27:02 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] Is Dia the right tool for this job?
In-Reply-To: <71888cb20810170644y35142276q1853511c9a43710b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <48F8911C.8020509@sinodun.org.uk>
	<71888cb20810170644y35142276q1853511c9a43710b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <48F8AEC6.5000302@sinodun.org.uk>

Byron Schlemmer wrote:
> 2008/10/17 John Winters <john at sinodun.org.uk>:
[snip]
>> Am I missing something obvious?  Is there a better tool for this kind of
>> thing?
> 
> Yes,
> 
> http://www.omnigroup.com/applications/omnigraffle/

Thank you - I'll take a look.

Cheers,
John

From sanelson at gmail.com  Fri Oct 17 16:40:47 2008
From: sanelson at gmail.com (Stephen Nelson-Smith)
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 16:40:47 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] Is Dia the right tool for this job?
In-Reply-To: <71888cb20810170644y35142276q1853511c9a43710b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <48F8911C.8020509@sinodun.org.uk>
	<71888cb20810170644y35142276q1853511c9a43710b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <b6131fdc0810170840g63624f61o5ee01565e443c3e9@mail.gmail.com>

Hello,

> Yes,
>
> http://www.omnigroup.com/applications/omnigraffle/

Is there a Linux version?  I thought it was OSX only.  I've used it,
and it's super.  Even the crippleware version.

S.

From me at byron.me.uk  Fri Oct 17 17:32:24 2008
From: me at byron.me.uk (Byron Schlemmer)
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 17:32:24 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] Is Dia the right tool for this job?
In-Reply-To: <b6131fdc0810170840g63624f61o5ee01565e443c3e9@mail.gmail.com>
References: <48F8911C.8020509@sinodun.org.uk>
	<71888cb20810170644y35142276q1853511c9a43710b@mail.gmail.com>
	<b6131fdc0810170840g63624f61o5ee01565e443c3e9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <71888cb20810170932o50a90048wafa69477c30313e3@mail.gmail.com>

2008/10/17 Stephen Nelson-Smith <sanelson at gmail.com>:
> Hello,
>
>> Yes,
>>
>> http://www.omnigroup.com/applications/omnigraffle/
>
> Is there a Linux version?  I thought it was OSX only.  I've used it,
> and it's super.  Even the crippleware version.

No. My original response was less than useful.

John, something else you may try is OpenOffice Draw. However I suspect
Tethys has present an answer for your original problem.
-- 

    byron

From hearnsj at googlemail.com  Fri Oct 17 18:54:03 2008
From: hearnsj at googlemail.com (John Hearns)
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 18:54:03 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] Is Dia the right tool for this job?
In-Reply-To: <71888cb20810170932o50a90048wafa69477c30313e3@mail.gmail.com>
References: <48F8911C.8020509@sinodun.org.uk>
	<71888cb20810170644y35142276q1853511c9a43710b@mail.gmail.com>
	<b6131fdc0810170840g63624f61o5ee01565e443c3e9@mail.gmail.com>
	<71888cb20810170932o50a90048wafa69477c30313e3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9f8092cc0810171054y68633539x86837cc80da671c0@mail.gmail.com>

Talking about diagamming tools, does anyone have a recommendation for tools
for network/server diagrams?
To be honest, the best kid on the block these days seems to be Visio.

A long time ago I got used to a Windows program which did a good job for me
- and if I ever remember the name for it I'll try to search it out again.
Lots of pre-defined network switch images, and I liked the way it worked.
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From john at sinodun.org.uk  Fri Oct 17 18:54:46 2008
From: john at sinodun.org.uk (John Winters)
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 18:54:46 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] Timer Program
In-Reply-To: <20081017120816.GC21901@annexia.org>
References: <b6131fdc0810170354x103bd358s27b8fcf2cf0854c4@mail.gmail.com>	<264d99b00810170440l7b73ce86m1614782245d6cd47@mail.gmail.com>
	<20081017120816.GC21901@annexia.org>
Message-ID: <48F8D166.4020706@sinodun.org.uk>

Richard Jones wrote:
> On Fri, Oct 17, 2008 at 12:40:36PM +0100, - Tethys wrote:
>> Perhaps not as slick a user interface, but this should work well enough:
>>
>> echo 'aplay /path/to/noise.wav && xmessage -display :0 "Time is up"' |
>> at "now +25 minutes"
> 
> That's funny ... I actually did something like that once when I was
> stuck in a seedy hotel with only my laptop and no alarm clock.

The mind boggles as to why you needed to time 25 minutes in a seedy
hotel.  ;-)

John

From S.Tohill at westminster.ac.uk  Fri Oct 17 19:34:14 2008
From: S.Tohill at westminster.ac.uk (sean)
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 19:34:14 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] Is Dia the right tool for this job?
In-Reply-To: <9f8092cc0810171054y68633539x86837cc80da671c0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <48F8911C.8020509@sinodun.org.uk>	<71888cb20810170644y35142276q1853511c9a43710b@mail.gmail.com>	<b6131fdc0810170840g63624f61o5ee01565e443c3e9@mail.gmail.com>	<71888cb20810170932o50a90048wafa69477c30313e3@mail.gmail.com>
	<9f8092cc0810171054y68633539x86837cc80da671c0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <48F8DAA6.7060902@wmin.ac.uk>

John Hearns wrote:
> Talking about diagamming tools, does anyone have a recommendation for 
> tools for network/server diagrams?
> To be honest, the best kid on the block these days seems to be Visio.
>  
> A long time ago I got used to a Windows program which did a good job 
> for me - and if I ever remember the name for it I'll try to search it 
> out again. Lots of pre-defined network switch images, and I liked the 
> way it worked.
>  
yes, something to networking diagrams would be good. i teach cisco 
courses and even though cisco have started to use linux based servers as 
part of the course, the diagrams student produce are using visio, 
because i can't find a suitable alternative. 

regards

sean

-- 
The University of Westminster is a charity and a company limited by
guarantee.  Registration number: 977818 England.  Registered Office:
309 Regent Street, London W1B 2UW, UK.

From caroline.ford.work at googlemail.com  Fri Oct 17 20:15:10 2008
From: caroline.ford.work at googlemail.com (Caroline Ford)
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 20:15:10 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] Is Dia the right tool for this job?
In-Reply-To: <48F8DAA6.7060902@wmin.ac.uk>
References: <48F8911C.8020509@sinodun.org.uk>
	<71888cb20810170644y35142276q1853511c9a43710b@mail.gmail.com>
	<b6131fdc0810170840g63624f61o5ee01565e443c3e9@mail.gmail.com>
	<71888cb20810170932o50a90048wafa69477c30313e3@mail.gmail.com>
	<9f8092cc0810171054y68633539x86837cc80da671c0@mail.gmail.com>
	<48F8DAA6.7060902@wmin.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <cbc01cde0810171215o39371e2ck7aeca83448371d66@mail.gmail.com>

Dia comes with some cisco artwork.

On 10/17/08, sean <S.Tohill at westminster.ac.uk> wrote:
> John Hearns wrote:
>> Talking about diagamming tools, does anyone have a recommendation for
>> tools for network/server diagrams?
>> To be honest, the best kid on the block these days seems to be Visio.
>>
>> A long time ago I got used to a Windows program which did a good job
>> for me - and if I ever remember the name for it I'll try to search it
>> out again. Lots of pre-defined network switch images, and I liked the
>> way it worked.
>>
> yes, something to networking diagrams would be good. i teach cisco
> courses and even though cisco have started to use linux based servers as
> part of the course, the diagrams student produce are using visio,
> because i can't find a suitable alternative.
>
> regards
>
> sean
>
> --
> The University of Westminster is a charity and a company limited by
> guarantee.  Registration number: 977818 England.  Registered Office:
> 309 Regent Street, London W1B 2UW, UK.
> --
> Gllug mailing list  -  Gllug at gllug.org.uk
> http://lists.gllug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/gllug
>

-- 
Sent from Google Mail for mobile | mobile.google.com

From tethys at gmail.com  Fri Oct 17 21:21:34 2008
From: tethys at gmail.com (- Tethys)
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 21:21:34 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] Is Dia the right tool for this job?
In-Reply-To: <9f8092cc0810171054y68633539x86837cc80da671c0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <48F8911C.8020509@sinodun.org.uk>
	<71888cb20810170644y35142276q1853511c9a43710b@mail.gmail.com>
	<b6131fdc0810170840g63624f61o5ee01565e443c3e9@mail.gmail.com>
	<71888cb20810170932o50a90048wafa69477c30313e3@mail.gmail.com>
	<9f8092cc0810171054y68633539x86837cc80da671c0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <264d99b00810171321o415ef502m1d976e876ec063bb@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Oct 17, 2008 at 6:54 PM, John Hearns <hearnsj at googlemail.com> wrote:

> Talking about diagamming tools, does anyone have a recommendation for tools
> for network/server diagrams?
> To be honest, the best kid on the block these days seems to be Visio.

Sadly true. Dia is the best free option, but even in my most rabid
pro-free software moments, I can't honestly say it's as good. It's
usable, and getting better, but it's not currently an alternative to
Visio for complex networking diagrams.

Tet

-- 
Perl is like vise grips. You can do anything with it but it is the
wrong tool for every job. -- Bruce Eckel

From andrew-lists at mail.black1.org.uk  Sat Oct 18 09:34:04 2008
From: andrew-lists at mail.black1.org.uk (Andrew Black - lists)
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 09:34:04 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] Timer Program
In-Reply-To: <48F8D166.4020706@sinodun.org.uk>
References: <b6131fdc0810170354x103bd358s27b8fcf2cf0854c4@mail.gmail.com>	<264d99b00810170440l7b73ce86m1614782245d6cd47@mail.gmail.com>	<20081017120816.GC21901@annexia.org>
	<48F8D166.4020706@sinodun.org.uk>
Message-ID: <48F99F7C.5020800@mail.black1.org.uk>

John Winters wrote:
> Richard Jones wrote:

>> That's funny ... I actually did something like that once when I was
>> stuck in a seedy hotel with only my laptop and no alarm clock.
> 
> The mind boggles as to why you needed to time 25 minutes in a seedy
> hotel.  ;-)

Particularly with nothing other than a laptop :-)

From stuart at terminus.co.uk  Sat Oct 18 12:13:57 2008
From: stuart at terminus.co.uk (Stuart Children)
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 12:13:57 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] Is Dia the right tool for this job?
In-Reply-To: <9f8092cc0810171054y68633539x86837cc80da671c0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <48F8911C.8020509@sinodun.org.uk>
	<71888cb20810170644y35142276q1853511c9a43710b@mail.gmail.com>
	<b6131fdc0810170840g63624f61o5ee01565e443c3e9@mail.gmail.com>
	<71888cb20810170932o50a90048wafa69477c30313e3@mail.gmail.com>
	<9f8092cc0810171054y68633539x86837cc80da671c0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20081018111357.GA24712@urchin.earth.li>

On Fri, Oct 17, 2008 at 06:54:03PM +0100, John Hearns wrote:
> Talking about diagamming tools, does anyone have a recommendation for tools
> for network/server diagrams?

Depends what you're after, but it's worth mentioning Graphviz. If you're
often rebuilding the same kinda diagrams with slightly different inputs it
could be a big win. You can feed in text based "definitions" (dot files)
which it will turn into images. Perfect for documentating your own
networks, especially if you already have the source data in a configuration
management/install system! Check out some of the tools built on top:
http://www.graphviz.org/Resources.php

If you want the images to look really polished, it may not be the best choice
- it's always been good enough for my needs, but YMMV.

I'm sure I came across another very similar application a while ago, but my 
google fu is totally failing me. :(

Gliffy http://www.gliffy.com/ may be of use? I came across it when I saw it
demoed as a Confluence plugin, but have never used it in anger so can't
recommend either way - just mentioning it.

HTH

-- 
Stuart

From mail-lists at karan.org  Sat Oct 18 12:16:48 2008
From: mail-lists at karan.org (Karanbir Singh)
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 12:16:48 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] GLLUG at Olympia, October 2008
In-Reply-To: <Marcel-1.53-1012090737-d07hjSf@riscpc.localdomain>
References: <Marcel-1.53-1012090737-d07hjSf@riscpc.localdomain>
Message-ID: <48F9C5A0.3050406@karan.org>

Chris Bell wrote:
> Hello,
>    GLLUG has requested a stand in the .org village at the Olympia, October
> 23 - 25, 2008 LinuxLive/MacLive/CreativePro Expo. I expect to be there for
> the entire time plus the rig day, who will be available to man the stand
> with me, (not just as a visitor), and when?
> 

Do we want to put something on the gllug.org.uk website about this ?

-- 
Karanbir Singh : http://www.karan.org/ : 2522219 at icq

From GLLUG at getaroundtoit.co.uk  Sat Oct 18 13:08:54 2008
From: GLLUG at getaroundtoit.co.uk (David L Neil Mailing list a/c)
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 13:08:54 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] GLLUG at Olympia, October 2008
In-Reply-To: <48F9C5A0.3050406@karan.org>
References: <Marcel-1.53-1012090737-d07hjSf@riscpc.localdomain>
	<48F9C5A0.3050406@karan.org>
Message-ID: <48F9D1D6.8080501@getaroundtoit.co.uk>

Karanbir Singh wrote:
> Chris Bell wrote:
>> Hello,
>>    GLLUG has requested a stand in the .org village at the Olympia, October
>> 23 - 25, 2008 LinuxLive/MacLive/CreativePro Expo. I expect to be there for
>> the entire time plus the rig day, who will be available to man the stand
>> with me, (not just as a visitor), and when?
>>
> 
> Do we want to put something on the gllug.org.uk website about this ?


Yes, probably a good idea: seeing http://www.linuxexpo.org.uk/ claims
GLLUG as amongst the members of the .ORG village!?

The show runs from next Thursday through to Saturday.

Very few GLLUGers/GLLUGlers have offered to help man the stand, and
Chris Bell <chrisbell at overview.demon.co.uk> will be pleased to hear from
more souls prepared to put in say half a day or even lunch-time 'cover'.
His demo must be straightforward, given that a simple boy like me will
have to drive it!

The main expo site can be found at http://www.linuxexpolive.co.uk/ but
quickly becomes confusing when they talk of the Linux Expo and a
Creative Expo, but all communications come back labelled Mac Expo...

If you would like to apply for free tickets to attend, go straight to
http://www.macliveexpo.co.uk/client/index.aspx?id=book (if you follow
from the home page you'll have to click on the same button twice to get
to where you're going (although that is recommended over clicking a link
in some 'strange' email msg. Sigh! - the registration page needs JavaScript)

Regards,
=dn

From chrisbell at overview.demon.co.uk  Sat Oct 18 21:17:12 2008
From: chrisbell at overview.demon.co.uk (Chris Bell)
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 21:17:12 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [Gllug] GLLUG at Olympia, October 2008
In-Reply-To: <48F9C5A0.3050406@karan.org>
Message-ID: <Marcel-1.53-1018201712-2e1hjSf@riscpc.localdomain>

On Sat 18 Oct, Karanbir Singh wrote:
> 
> Chris Bell wrote:
> > Hello,
> >    GLLUG has requested a stand in the .org village at the Olympia, October
> > 23 - 25, 2008 LinuxLive/MacLive/CreativePro Expo. I expect to be there for
> > the entire time plus the rig day, who will be available to man the stand
> > with me, (not just as a visitor), and when?
> > 
> 
> Do we want to put something on the gllug.org.uk website about this ?
> 
   A bit late, but I do not know who has sufficient permissions.


-- 
Chris Bell NEW alternative address: chrisbell at chrisbell.org.uk
Microsoft sells you Windows ... Linux gives you the whole house.


From chrisbell at overview.demon.co.uk  Sun Oct 19 08:29:00 2008
From: chrisbell at overview.demon.co.uk (Chris Bell)
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2008 08:29:00 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [Gllug] GLLUG at Olympia, October 2008
In-Reply-To: <Marcel-1.53-1018201712-2e1hjSf@riscpc.localdomain>
Message-ID: <Marcel-1.53-1019072900-3a0hjSf@riscpc.localdomain>

On Sat 18 Oct, Chris Bell wrote:
> 
> On Sat 18 Oct, Karanbir Singh wrote:
> > 

> > 
> > Do we want to put something on the gllug.org.uk website about this ?
> > 
>    A bit late, but I do not know who has sufficient permissions.
> 
> 

   Not relevant to the expo, but are there any items or references from my
website that could usefully be added to the GLLUG website?

http://www.overview.demon.co.uk

-- 
Chris Bell NEW alternative address: chrisbell at chrisbell.org.uk
Microsoft sells you Windows ... Linux gives you the whole house.


From johngeoffreywalker at yahoo.co.uk  Sun Oct 19 16:34:05 2008
From: johngeoffreywalker at yahoo.co.uk (John G Walker)
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2008 16:34:05 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] User switching problem under KDE 3.5
Message-ID: <20081019163405.2684dbf3@Rosebud.Harmony>

I'm running OpenSUSE 10.2 / KDE 3.5, and have been used to switching
between accounts by using ctl-alt-F-key, where the f-key is f7, f8 or
(crucially in this case f1). These jump to another KDE session or, in
the case of f1, give me a naked command line session.

It's suddenly stopped working. It's a minor annoyance if I want to jump
to another KDE session, but I don't seem to be able to get my command
line session at all.

I presume it's a very simple operation to restore the facility, but I
can't find out where to do that. I thought it would be in the KDE
Control Centre, but it's no where that I've looked. Anyone like to give
me a hint?

-- 
 All the best,
 John

From johngeoffreywalker at yahoo.co.uk  Sun Oct 19 16:48:42 2008
From: johngeoffreywalker at yahoo.co.uk (John G Walker)
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2008 16:48:42 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] User switching problem under KDE 3.5
In-Reply-To: <20081019163405.2684dbf3@Rosebud.Harmony>
References: <20081019163405.2684dbf3@Rosebud.Harmony>
Message-ID: <20081019164842.336a92d5@Rosebud.Harmony>



On Sun, 19 Oct 2008 16:34:05 +0100 John G Walker
<johngeoffreywalker at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

> I presume it's a very simple operation to restore the facility, but I
> can't find out where to do that.

And just as mysteriously, it's returned. If there's one thing that I
hate more than things that mysteriously stop working, it's things that
mysteriously stop working and then, just as mysteriously, start working
again. The first is a consequence of living in a mechanical age (or its
electronic child), the second shows deliberate malevolence on the part
of the machines.

Demystification would still be appreciated,

-- 
 All the best,
 John

From gllug at lgeezer.net  Mon Oct 20 00:52:18 2008
From: gllug at lgeezer.net (Alistair Mann)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 00:52:18 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] User switching problem under KDE 3.5
In-Reply-To: <20081019164842.336a92d5@Rosebud.Harmony>
References: <20081019163405.2684dbf3@Rosebud.Harmony>
	<20081019164842.336a92d5@Rosebud.Harmony>
Message-ID: <48FBC832.5090807@lgeezer.net>

John G Walker wrote:
> 
> On Sun, 19 Oct 2008 16:34:05 +0100 John G Walker
> <johngeoffreywalker at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> 
>> I presume it's a very simple operation to restore the facility, but I
>> can't find out where to do that.
> 
> And just as mysteriously, it's returned. If there's one thing that I
> hate more than things that mysteriously stop working, it's things that
> mysteriously stop working and then, just as mysteriously, start working
> again. The first is a consequence of living in a mechanical age (or its
> electronic child), the second shows deliberate malevolence on the part
> of the machines.
> 
> Demystification would still be appreciated,

If the issue is non-recurrent, I'd suggest it was likely due to a since 
crushed biscuit-crumb.

If the issue does recur, and the keyboard is known to be fine, I believe 
the kernel itself handles detecting and switching via virtual terminals 
(a character device under device drivers) for c-a-f1 thru c-a-f6; c-a-f7 
to c-a-f12 on my machine are handled by /etc/X11/xdm/Xservers.

HTH,
-- 
Alistair Mann



From richard_c at tpg.com.au  Tue Oct 21 16:13:36 2008
From: richard_c at tpg.com.au (Richard Cottrill)
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 16:13:36 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] is LaTex the way to do this?
In-Reply-To: <20081017120420.GB21901@annexia.org>
References: <61099.85.118.17.158.1224161902.squirrel@newgolddream.dyndns.info>
	<48F8680A.7020303@practicalweb.co.uk>
	<20081017120420.GB21901@annexia.org>
Message-ID: <90052f640810210813t6b10077fk2c807470188ee25a@mail.gmail.com>

2008/10/17 Richard Jones <rich at annexia.org>:
> On Fri, Oct 17, 2008 at 11:25:14AM +0100, Sean Burlington wrote:
>> jfreechart might do it
>>
>> http://www.jfree.org/jfreechart/samples.html
>
> Chartjunk-tastic.  You'd think that people who do charts for a living
> would have read Tufte ...

jfreechart is a great way to make a simple problem really hard. The
lack of documentation is made crippliing by it's byzantine API,
rubbish javadocs, and bugs. You can find a bunch of examples on the
internet if you look hard (I don't have a link to hand) that pre-date
the policy of "pay for usable documentation and example code".

I'll chuck in gnuplot (which makes the simple stuff easy, and the hard
stuff potentially in reach of a dedicated team of professionals).

Richard

From fendersan at aol.com  Tue Oct 21 21:26:07 2008
From: fendersan at aol.com (fendersan at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 16:26:07 -0400
Subject: [Gllug] =?iso-8859-1?q?=28no_subject=29?=
Message-ID: <8CB01D261C49F14-1270-E28@webmail-stg-d08.sysops.aol.com>

Can anyone recommend an alternative to MS Access?

I'm looking for a user-friendly, multi-user, file-based, relational database system. 

I just want database without a database server or web server.

TIA

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From fendersan at aol.com  Tue Oct 21 21:27:52 2008
From: fendersan at aol.com (fendersan at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 16:27:52 -0400
Subject: [Gllug] alternative to MS Access
In-Reply-To: <8CB01D261C49F14-1270-E28@webmail-stg-d08.sysops.aol.com>
References: <8CB01D261C49F14-1270-E28@webmail-stg-d08.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <8CB01D2A0322027-1270-E41@webmail-stg-d08.sysops.aol.com>


 Sorry, forgot the subject line!


 


 

-----Original Message-----
From: fendersan at aol.com
To: gllug at gllug.org.uk
Sent: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 9:26 pm
Subject:  [Gllug] (no subject)









Can anyone recommend an alternative to MS Access?



I'm looking for a user-friendly, multi-user, file-based, relational database system. 



I just want database without a database server or web server.



TIA







McCain or Obama? Stay updated on coverage of the Presidential race while you browse - Download Now! 



 





-- 
Gllug mailing list  -  Gllug at gllug.org.uk
http://lists.gllug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/gllug



 

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From david at disintegration.org  Tue Oct 21 22:54:33 2008
From: david at disintegration.org (David Coles)
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 22:54:33 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [Gllug] alternative to MS Access
In-Reply-To: <8CB01D2A0322027-1270-E41@webmail-stg-d08.sysops.aol.com>
References: <8CB01D261C49F14-1270-E28@webmail-stg-d08.sysops.aol.com>
	<8CB01D2A0322027-1270-E41@webmail-stg-d08.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.63.0810212239120.16812@opal.spod.org>


On Tue, 21 Oct 2008, fendersan at aol.com wrote:

> Can anyone recommend an alternative to MS Access?
>
> I'm looking for a user-friendly, multi-user, file-based, relational 
> database system.
>
> I just want database without a database server or web server.

OpenOffice.org Database is pretty similar to what I remember Access being 
like when I last used it in the mid 90s. I've not been able to continue 
using it for more than about half an hour though.

Just tried it in Ubuntu 7.10 actually and it seemed slightly less painful.

I have no idea how it copes with multiuser however.

--
David


From farnsaw at stonedoor.com  Tue Oct 21 23:12:57 2008
From: farnsaw at stonedoor.com (Andrew Farnsworth)
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 18:12:57 -0400
Subject: [Gllug] alternative to MS Access
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.63.0810212239120.16812@opal.spod.org>
References: <8CB01D261C49F14-1270-E28@webmail-stg-d08.sysops.aol.com>	<8CB01D2A0322027-1270-E41@webmail-stg-d08.sysops.aol.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.63.0810212239120.16812@opal.spod.org>
Message-ID: <48FE53E9.3080203@stonedoor.com>

David Coles wrote:
> On Tue, 21 Oct 2008, fendersan at aol.com wrote:
>
>   
>> Can anyone recommend an alternative to MS Access?
>>
>> I'm looking for a user-friendly, multi-user, file-based, relational 
>> database system.
>>
>> I just want database without a database server or web server.
>>     
>
> OpenOffice.org Database is pretty similar to what I remember Access being 
> like when I last used it in the mid 90s. I've not been able to continue 
> using it for more than about half an hour though.
>
> Just tried it in Ubuntu 7.10 actually and it seemed slightly less painful.
>
> I have no idea how it copes with multiuser however.
>
> --
> David
>
>   


Have you looked into the Derby project by the Apache Foundation?

Andy

From david at disintegration.org  Tue Oct 21 23:19:43 2008
From: david at disintegration.org (David Coles)
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 23:19:43 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [Gllug] alternative to MS Access
In-Reply-To: <48FE53E9.3080203@stonedoor.com>
References: <8CB01D261C49F14-1270-E28@webmail-stg-d08.sysops.aol.com>
	<8CB01D2A0322027-1270-E41@webmail-stg-d08.sysops.aol.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.63.0810212239120.16812@opal.spod.org>
	<48FE53E9.3080203@stonedoor.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.63.0810212317210.16812@opal.spod.org>


On Tue, 21 Oct 2008, Andrew Farnsworth wrote:
>
> Have you looked into the Derby project by the Apache Foundation?

Appears to be an embedded RDBMS - I didn't mention SQLite for the same 
reason, that it is hardly what one would call "user friendly" ;)

--
David


From ryan at crimperman.org  Wed Oct 22 00:06:50 2008
From: ryan at crimperman.org (Ryan Cartwright)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 00:06:50 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] alternative to MS Access
In-Reply-To: <8CB01D2A0322027-1270-E41@webmail-stg-d08.sysops.aol.com>
References: <8CB01D261C49F14-1270-E28@webmail-stg-d08.sysops.aol.com>
	<8CB01D2A0322027-1270-E41@webmail-stg-d08.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <48FE608A.8050802@crimperman.org>

fendersan at aol.com wrote:
> Can anyone recommend an alternative to MS Access?
> I'm looking for a user-friendly, multi-user, file-based, relational database system. 
> I just want database without a database server or web server.
> 

Kexi might be worth a look - I've not used at it for a while but it 
certainly aims to be something similar to Access.

cheers
Ryan

From jon at pecorous.co.uk  Wed Oct 22 08:27:11 2008
From: jon at pecorous.co.uk (Jon Dye)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 08:27:11 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] Small http server with ssi?
Message-ID: <c1854a7c0810220027y7ca4d2d6rda978f055476211b@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,
I want to set up a basic webserver on a small box I have.  The box is quite
low powered and therefore I want something more lightweight than apache but
it must support server side includes (SSI) as I have some pages that
currently rely on this.

I had a look at thttpd but this doesn't support SSI, does anyone have any
recommendations?

JD
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From peterachilds at gmail.com  Wed Oct 22 08:31:50 2008
From: peterachilds at gmail.com (Peter Childs)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 08:31:50 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <8CB01D261C49F14-1270-E28@webmail-stg-d08.sysops.aol.com>
References: <8CB01D261C49F14-1270-E28@webmail-stg-d08.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <a2de01dd0810220031v4ce9c5e6he9e5dc146eb9f6ee@mail.gmail.com>

2008/10/21  <fendersan at aol.com>:
> Can anyone recommend an alternative to MS Access?
>
> I'm looking for a user-friendly, multi-user, file-based, relational database
> system.
>
> I just want database without a database server or web server.
>
> TIA
>
>
> ________________________________
> McCain or Obama? Stay updated on coverage of the Presidential race while you
> browse - Download Now!
> --
> Gllug mailing list  -  Gllug at gllug.org.uk
> http://lists.gllug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/gllug
>
>

SQLite

http://www.sqlite.org/

It probably the best solution, for what you need.

If you want all the GUI stuff that Access has try OpenOffice but I
think you lose the multi-user (Not that Access has that really).

Peter Childs

From chrisbell at overview.demon.co.uk  Wed Oct 22 08:13:19 2008
From: chrisbell at overview.demon.co.uk (Chris Bell)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 08:13:19 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [Gllug] GLLUG at Olympia, October 2008
In-Reply-To: <20081013125406.GA10464@frasco.org.uk>
Message-ID: <Marcel-1.53-1022071319-bc8hjSf@riscpc.localdomain>

   I intend to go to Olympia by public transport this morning and check the
arrangements, then return by car after the end of the congestion charge this
evening. Our stand is part of the .org village, a rectangular area with
outward facing stands separated by side panels which can be decorated with
posters. We should have two chairs and a table, and a limited power feed. I
will be taking a couple of older computers and a monitor sat on top of a
small cabinet to demo installation and configuration of IPCop and Debian,
just for something to look at.
   Passes should be emailed to us individually so that we can print them,
but we have been assured that passes can be printed for us on arrival. The
organiser office should be close to the entrance.
   Street parking is limited meters only, off road parking is not cheap. The
nearest station is Olympia, but service is intermittent. Other alternatives
are Barons Court (Piccadilly and District Lines, 10 minutes walk) or
Shepherds Bush (Central Line, 15 minutes walk).



-- 
Chris Bell NEW alternative address: chrisbell at chrisbell.org.uk
Answerphone 020 8992 3966   Mobile 07711 086100


From riq at trw.org.uk  Wed Oct 22 09:01:11 2008
From: riq at trw.org.uk (Riq)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 09:01:11 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] Alternative to MS Access
In-Reply-To: <mailman.35420.1224659333.1944.gllug@gllug.org.uk>
References: <mailman.35420.1224659333.1944.gllug@gllug.org.uk>
Message-ID: <48FEDDC7.2070605@trw.org.uk>

Is it really possible to have reliable multi-user without using a server?
I would go with OpenOffice and a MySQL backend.

However, I am finding OpenOffice Base rather un-intuitive.
Perhaps someone has found some good documentation?

Riq


gllug-request at gllug.org.uk wrote:
> Send Gllug mailing list submissions to
> 	gllug at gllug.org.uk
> 
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> 	http://lists.gllug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/gllug
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> 	gllug-request at gllug.org.uk
> 
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> 	gllug-owner at gllug.org.uk
> 
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of Gllug digest..."
> 
> 
> Today's Topics:
> 
>    1. Re: is LaTex the way to do this? (Richard Cottrill)
>    2. (no subject) (fendersan at aol.com)
>    3. alternative to MS Access (fendersan at aol.com)
>    4. Re: alternative to MS Access (David Coles)
>    5. Re: alternative to MS Access (Andrew Farnsworth)
>    6. Re: alternative to MS Access (David Coles)
>    7. Re: alternative to MS Access (Ryan Cartwright)
>    8. Small http server with ssi? (Jon Dye)
>    9. Re: (no subject) (Peter Childs)
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 16:13:36 +0100
> From: "Richard Cottrill" <richard_c at tpg.com.au>
> Subject: Re: [Gllug] is LaTex the way to do this?
> To: "Greater London Linux User Group" <gllug at gllug.org.uk>
> Message-ID:
> 	<90052f640810210813t6b10077fk2c807470188ee25a at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> 
> 2008/10/17 Richard Jones <rich at annexia.org>:
>> On Fri, Oct 17, 2008 at 11:25:14AM +0100, Sean Burlington wrote:
>>> jfreechart might do it
>>>
>>> http://www.jfree.org/jfreechart/samples.html
>> Chartjunk-tastic.  You'd think that people who do charts for a living
>> would have read Tufte ...
> 
> jfreechart is a great way to make a simple problem really hard. The
> lack of documentation is made crippliing by it's byzantine API,
> rubbish javadocs, and bugs. You can find a bunch of examples on the
> internet if you look hard (I don't have a link to hand) that pre-date
> the policy of "pay for usable documentation and example code".
> 
> I'll chuck in gnuplot (which makes the simple stuff easy, and the hard
> stuff potentially in reach of a dedicated team of professionals).
> 
> Richard
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 2
> Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 16:26:07 -0400
> From: fendersan at aol.com
> Subject: [Gllug] (no subject)
> To: gllug at gllug.org.uk
> Message-ID: <8CB01D261C49F14-1270-E28 at webmail-stg-d08.sysops.aol.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> 
> Can anyone recommend an alternative to MS Access?
> 
> I'm looking for a user-friendly, multi-user, file-based, relational database system. 
> 
> I just want database without a database server or web server.
> 
> TIA
> 
> -------------- next part --------------
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> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 3
> Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 16:27:52 -0400
> From: fendersan at aol.com
> Subject: [Gllug] alternative to MS Access
> To: gllug at gllug.org.uk
> Message-ID: <8CB01D2A0322027-1270-E41 at webmail-stg-d08.sysops.aol.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> 
> 
>  Sorry, forgot the subject line!
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 
>  
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: fendersan at aol.com
> To: gllug at gllug.org.uk
> Sent: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 9:26 pm
> Subject:  [Gllug] (no subject)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Can anyone recommend an alternative to MS Access?
> 
> 
> 
> I'm looking for a user-friendly, multi-user, file-based, relational database system. 
> 
> 
> 
> I just want database without a database server or web server.
> 
> 
> 
> TIA
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> McCain or Obama? Stay updated on coverage of the Presidential race while you browse - Download Now! 
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 

From ben at whyte-systems.co.uk  Wed Oct 22 09:02:17 2008
From: ben at whyte-systems.co.uk (Ben Whyte)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 09:02:17 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] GLLUG at Olympia, October 2008
In-Reply-To: <Marcel-1.53-1022071319-bc8hjSf@riscpc.localdomain>
References: <Marcel-1.53-1022071319-bc8hjSf@riscpc.localdomain>
Message-ID: <48FEDE09.9090103@whyte-systems.co.uk>

Chris Bell wrote:
>    I intend to go to Olympia by public transport this morning and check the
> arrangements, then return by car after the end of the congestion charge this
> evening. Our stand is part of the .org village, a rectangular area with
> outward facing stands separated by side panels which can be decorated with
> posters. We should have two chairs and a table, and a limited power feed. I
> will be taking a couple of older computers and a monitor sat on top of a
> small cabinet to demo installation and configuration of IPCop and Debian,
> just for something to look at.
>    Passes should be emailed to us individually so that we can print them,
> but we have been assured that passes can be printed for us on arrival. The
> organiser office should be close to the entrance.
>    Street parking is limited meters only, off road parking is not cheap. The
> nearest station is Olympia, but service is intermittent. Other alternatives
> are Barons Court (Piccadilly and District Lines, 10 minutes walk) or
> Shepherds Bush (Central Line, 15 minutes walk).
> 
> 
> 


I will offer some advise here, I have previously exhibited at Olympia 
and the off road parking is not cheap and you often need a parking permit.

I often arrived at kensington tubes and walked up to Olympia about 10 
mins or so and quite pleasant.

Food and drink is expensive and mostly pret or costa.

Tempreture in the halls is usually fairly variable, unless they improved 
the aircon.

Hope thats useful.

Ben

From David.Hastie at smartodds.co.uk  Tue Oct 21 12:32:23 2008
From: David.Hastie at smartodds.co.uk (David Hastie)
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 12:32:23 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] VACANCY: MySQL Database Administrator, London, UK
Message-ID: <E394F53DA15F3B4A91BAFB50C213700C4AF4A33649@exchange.smartodds.co.uk>

Details
Company: Smartodds Ltd (http://www.smartodds.co.uk)
Salary: Competitive
Location: Kentish Town, London, UK
Job Reference: QTDBA081021

Experienced MySQL DBA required to join the quantitative team of our dynamic football betting consultancy. We are looking for self motivated and hard working individuals who are proactive, with an acute attention to detail. Your CV will speak for itself.

We offer a relaxed, but professional and fast paced working environment and an excellent salary package, depending on experience and qualifications.

Supporting the quantitative team, the role will involve the administration of the databases that are a backbone of our company. The successful candidate will be responsible for data verification and the development of stored procedures as required by the team, along with advising the team on database architecture, performance and resource requirements.

Essential Skills
* At least 2 years commercial experience as a MySQL DBA
* First or upper second class degree in a subject with a high computational, mathematical or statistical content
* Passion for football that will drive you to ensure the integrity of the databases
* Experience writing MySQL stored procedures
* Experience using replication in MySQL
* Candidate must be allowed to work in EU. No agencies please

Desirable Skills
* Good knowledge and experience of working with linux operating systems, including clustering
* Good knowledge and experience programming in a scripting language (e.g. Python, Perl, Php, etc.)

If you are interested in applying for the above please email your CV and a covering letter (including the job reference number) to careers at smartodds.co.uk .

Alternatively you may send your CV to us by mail, by writing to us at the address provided in our contact section of our website. If you have any other enquiries, please email, write or give us a call using these contact details.



David Hastie, Ph.D.
Head of Quantitative Team

Smartodds Ltd
612 Highgate Studios
53-79 Highgate Road
London
NW5 1TL

T: +44 208 7482 0077 Ext 6021
M: +44 7796 175 730
W: http://www.smartodds.co.uk



This e-mail and any files transmitted with it are confidential and may be legally privileged. If you receive it in error or are not the intended recipient you must not copy, distribute or take any action in reliance upon it. Instead, please notify us immediately by telephoning +44 (20) 74820223 and delete the material from your systems. Smartodds is a business carried on by Smartodds Limited, a company registered with the Registrar of Companies for England and Wales with number 05108548. Registered office: 66 Wigmore Street, London, W1U 2SB

From adrian at newgolddream.dyndns.info  Wed Oct 22 10:13:24 2008
From: adrian at newgolddream.dyndns.info (Adrian McMenamin)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 10:13:24 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [Gllug] is LaTex the way to do this?
In-Reply-To: <90052f640810210813t6b10077fk2c807470188ee25a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <61099.85.118.17.158.1224161902.squirrel@newgolddream.dyndns.info>
	<48F8680A.7020303@practicalweb.co.uk>
	<20081017120420.GB21901@annexia.org>
	<90052f640810210813t6b10077fk2c807470188ee25a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <18196.85.118.17.158.1224666804.squirrel@newgolddream.dyndns.info>

On Tue, October 21, 2008 4:13 pm, Richard Cottrill wrote:
> 2008/10/17 Richard Jones <rich at annexia.org>:
>> On Fri, Oct 17, 2008 at 11:25:14AM +0100, Sean Burlington wrote:
>>> jfreechart might do it
>>>
>>> http://www.jfree.org/jfreechart/samples.html
>>
>> Chartjunk-tastic.  You'd think that people who do charts for a living
>> would have read Tufte ...
>
> jfreechart is a great way to make a simple problem really hard. The
> lack of documentation is made crippliing by it's byzantine API,
> rubbish javadocs, and bugs. You can find a bunch of examples on the
> internet if you look hard (I don't have a link to hand) that pre-date
> the policy of "pay for usable documentation and example code".
>
> I'll chuck in gnuplot (which makes the simple stuff easy, and the hard
> stuff potentially in reach of a dedicated team of professionals).
>
>
I've actually found LaTeX plus pgf (iirc) works pretty well: though I've
yet to devote a lot of time to really making it do much beywond draing
coloured circles for now.


From listmail at lukedudney.com  Wed Oct 22 10:38:45 2008
From: listmail at lukedudney.com (Luke Dudney)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 10:38:45 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] Small http server with ssi?
In-Reply-To: <c1854a7c0810220027y7ca4d2d6rda978f055476211b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c1854a7c0810220027y7ca4d2d6rda978f055476211b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <48FEF4A5.8090607@lukedudney.com>

On 22/10/08 08:27, Jon Dye wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I want to set up a basic webserver on a small box I have.  The box is 
> quite low powered and therefore I want something more lightweight than 
> apache but it must support server side includes (SSI) as I have some 
> pages that currently rely on this.
>
> I had a look at thttpd but this doesn't support SSI, does anyone have 
> any recommendations?
>
> JD

I've used lighttpd with success, but have not tried it with SSI. 
However, it does appear to have SSI support in the form of mod_ssi.

http://www.lighttpd.net/
http://redmine.lighttpd.net/wiki/lighttpd/Docs:ModSSI

Cheers
Luke



From abuse at cabal.org.uk  Wed Oct 22 10:40:15 2008
From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 10:40:15 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] GLLUG at Olympia, October 2008
In-Reply-To: <Marcel-1.53-1022071319-bc8hjSf@riscpc.localdomain>
References: <20081013125406.GA10464@frasco.org.uk>
	<Marcel-1.53-1022071319-bc8hjSf@riscpc.localdomain>
Message-ID: <20081022094015.GA6810@cabal.org.uk>

On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 08:13:19AM +0100, Chris Bell wrote:
[...]
> Street parking is limited meters only, off road parking is not cheap. The
> nearest station is Olympia, but service is intermittent.

It's not *that* bad. The Tube service there is 4-6tph, and there are various
NR services passing down the West London Line, including the London
Overground between Clapham and Willesden Junctions (which was also about
4tph when I last looked.)


From abuse at cabal.org.uk  Wed Oct 22 11:00:34 2008
From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 11:00:34 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] Small http server with ssi?
In-Reply-To: <c1854a7c0810220027y7ca4d2d6rda978f055476211b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c1854a7c0810220027y7ca4d2d6rda978f055476211b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20081022100034.GB6810@cabal.org.uk>

On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 08:27:11AM +0100, Jon Dye wrote:
> I want to set up a basic webserver on a small box I have. The box is quite
> low powered and therefore I want something more lightweight than apache
> but it must support server side includes (SSI) as I have some pages that
> currently rely on this.

Have you actually benchmarked this, or are you just assuming that Apache is
too heavy? It's always been fine on whatever grotty old piece of junk I've
dug out for a side project.


From tethys at gmail.com  Wed Oct 22 11:06:54 2008
From: tethys at gmail.com (- Tethys)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 11:06:54 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] Small http server with ssi?
In-Reply-To: <c1854a7c0810220027y7ca4d2d6rda978f055476211b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c1854a7c0810220027y7ca4d2d6rda978f055476211b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <264d99b00810220306q472f8913kd0590ea3ba904033@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 8:27 AM, Jon Dye <jon at pecorous.co.uk> wrote:

> I had a look at thttpd but this doesn't support SSI, does anyone have any
> recommendations?

thttpd with SSI:

http://www.acme.com/software/thttpd/ssi_man.html

Tet

-- 
Perl is like vise grips. You can do anything with it but it is the
wrong tool for every job. -- Bruce Eckel

From john at sinodun.org.uk  Wed Oct 22 11:49:40 2008
From: john at sinodun.org.uk (John Winters)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 11:49:40 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [Gllug] alternative to MS Access
In-Reply-To: <48FE53E9.3080203@stonedoor.com>
References: <8CB01D261C49F14-1270-E28@webmail-stg-d08.sysops.aol.com>
	<8CB01D2A0322027-1270-E41@webmail-stg-d08.sysops.aol.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.63.0810212239120.16812@opal.spod.org>
	<48FE53E9.3080203@stonedoor.com>
Message-ID: <14096.195.70.73.197.1224672580.squirrel@webmail.sinodun.org.uk>

> Have you looked into the Derby project by the Apache Foundation?

Gives a whole new meaning to the idea of being locked in to a product.

John


From jon at pecorous.co.uk  Wed Oct 22 12:22:07 2008
From: jon at pecorous.co.uk (Jon Dye)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 12:22:07 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] Small http server with ssi?
In-Reply-To: <20081022100034.GB6810@cabal.org.uk>
References: <c1854a7c0810220027y7ca4d2d6rda978f055476211b@mail.gmail.com>
	<20081022100034.GB6810@cabal.org.uk>
Message-ID: <c1854a7c0810220422y3807fd7w89af08ea21d2e8bf@mail.gmail.com>

2008/10/22 Peter Corlett <abuse at cabal.org.uk>

> On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 08:27:11AM +0100, Jon Dye wrote:
> > I want to set up a basic webserver on a small box I have. The box is
> quite
> > low powered and therefore I want something more lightweight than apache
> > but it must support server side includes (SSI) as I have some pages that
> > currently rely on this.
>
> Have you actually benchmarked this, or are you just assuming that Apache is
> too heavy? It's always been fine on whatever grotty old piece of junk I've
> dug out for a side project.


I'm assuming it's too heavy.  I want to run it on my Viglen MPC-L which is
already running email and fileserving.  I just wanted to aim for the
lightest server I could that supported SSI.

JD
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From abuse at cabal.org.uk  Wed Oct 22 12:44:07 2008
From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 12:44:07 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] Small http server with ssi?
In-Reply-To: <c1854a7c0810220422y3807fd7w89af08ea21d2e8bf@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c1854a7c0810220027y7ca4d2d6rda978f055476211b@mail.gmail.com>
	<20081022100034.GB6810@cabal.org.uk>
	<c1854a7c0810220422y3807fd7w89af08ea21d2e8bf@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20081022114407.GA14793@cabal.org.uk>

On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 12:22:07PM +0100, Jon Dye wrote:
[...]
> I'm assuming it's too heavy. I want to run it on my Viglen MPC-L which is
> already running email and fileserving. I just wanted to aim for the
> lightest server I could that supported SSI.

Your assumption is probably false. The Viglen MPC-L is a 400MHz Geode with
512MB of RAM and a disk to swap to, which is a pretty capable box. A certain
cynical IT news site was running entirely off a system of similar spec back
in 1999. Using Apache.

I'm running a smaller box than yours and Apache's load is lost in the noise,
even though I'm using CPU-intensive SSL and page compression.


From tethys at gmail.com  Wed Oct 22 13:03:21 2008
From: tethys at gmail.com (- Tethys)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 13:03:21 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] Small http server with ssi?
In-Reply-To: <20081022114407.GA14793@cabal.org.uk>
References: <c1854a7c0810220027y7ca4d2d6rda978f055476211b@mail.gmail.com>
	<20081022100034.GB6810@cabal.org.uk>
	<c1854a7c0810220422y3807fd7w89af08ea21d2e8bf@mail.gmail.com>
	<20081022114407.GA14793@cabal.org.uk>
Message-ID: <264d99b00810220503o967ab6el1355c54e1235d2d0@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 12:44 PM, Peter Corlett <abuse at cabal.org.uk> wrote:

> I'm running a smaller box than yours and Apache's load is lost in the noise,
> even though I'm using CPU-intensive SSL and page compression.

Yes, but on a small box, even if Apache is fine, running something
lighter weight will still help with the other apps on the box, and as
such is beneficial. Although to be fair, it probably falls under the
"premature optimisation" banner.

Tet

-- 
Perl is like vise grips. You can do anything with it but it is the
wrong tool for every job. -- Bruce Eckel

From farnsaw at stonedoor.com  Wed Oct 22 14:13:04 2008
From: farnsaw at stonedoor.com (Andrew Farnsworth)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 09:13:04 -0400
Subject: [Gllug] Small http server with ssi?
Message-ID: <59350.1224681184@stonedoor.com>

If you search for "apache footprint" on the web you come across this page:

http://wiki.vpslink.com/Low_memory_MySQL_/_Apache_configurations

which talks about settings you can use to reduce the http server's memory footprint.

The author of that page states that the changes he lists "reduced my apache
footprint from around 225MB (one thread) to about 12MB per thread".

Andy

On Wed Oct 22  8:03 , '- Tethys' <tethys at gmail.com> sent:

>On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 12:44 PM, Peter Corlett abuse at cabal.org.uk> wrote:
>
>> I'm running a smaller box than yours and Apache's load is lost in the noise,
>> even though I'm using CPU-intensive SSL and page compression.
>
>Yes, but on a small box, even if Apache is fine, running something
>lighter weight will still help with the other apps on the box, and as
>such is beneficial. Although to be fair, it probably falls under the
>"premature optimisation" banner.
>
>Tet
>
>-- 
>Perl is like vise grips. You can do anything with it but it is the
>wrong tool for every job. -- Bruce Eckel
>-- 
>Gllug mailing list  -  Gllug at gllug.org.uk
>http://lists.gllug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/gllug



From addw at phcomp.co.uk  Wed Oct 22 14:41:40 2008
From: addw at phcomp.co.uk (Alain Williams)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 14:41:40 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] ethernet -> serial converters
Message-ID: <20081022134140.GQ14668@mint.phcomp.co.uk>

Hi,

a customer of mine has a few serial printers (impact for multi part paper) and a few
wyse60 (or something) serial terminals. At some stage they are going to want to talk
to these over the Internet (when I do server consolidation).

If it were not for the remote sites I might have put a serial card into the server,
but that won't work with remote (other end of country) sites, I could push it over
their VPN.

I have been looking at serial -> ethernet converters. Does anyone have any experience
with these ? Are they reliable ? Do they play nicely with cups ? 
They claim to do reverse telnet, anyone seen it work  -- I would want to get a login prompt to the
wyse that way ?

I will be installing CentOS (== RedHat enterprise).

	http://www.perle.com/products/IOLAN-DS-Terminal-Server.shtml
	http://www.barcode-manufacturer.com/serial-ethernet/

-- 
Alain Williams
Linux/GNU Consultant - Mail systems, Web sites, Networking, Programmer, IT Lecturer.
+44 (0) 787 668 0256  http://www.phcomp.co.uk/
Parliament Hill Computers Ltd. Registration Information: http://www.phcomp.co.uk/contact.php
Past chairman of UKUUG: http://www.ukuug.org/
#include <std_disclaimer.h>

From jon at pecorous.co.uk  Wed Oct 22 16:13:37 2008
From: jon at pecorous.co.uk (Jon Dye)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 16:13:37 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] Small http server with ssi?
In-Reply-To: <264d99b00810220503o967ab6el1355c54e1235d2d0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c1854a7c0810220027y7ca4d2d6rda978f055476211b@mail.gmail.com>
	<20081022100034.GB6810@cabal.org.uk>
	<c1854a7c0810220422y3807fd7w89af08ea21d2e8bf@mail.gmail.com>
	<20081022114407.GA14793@cabal.org.uk>
	<264d99b00810220503o967ab6el1355c54e1235d2d0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c1854a7c0810220813i3f3740lf46f8bfb3fd181d1@mail.gmail.com>

2008/10/22 - Tethys <tethys at gmail.com>

> On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 12:44 PM, Peter Corlett <abuse at cabal.org.uk>
> wrote:
>
> > I'm running a smaller box than yours and Apache's load is lost in the
> noise,
> > even though I'm using CPU-intensive SSL and page compression.
>
> Yes, but on a small box, even if Apache is fine, running something
> lighter weight will still help with the other apps on the box, and as
> such is beneficial. Although to be fair, it probably falls under the
> "premature optimisation" banner.


I'm not sure I would consider it premature optimisation.  I've got a list of
webservers I can install using apt and I want to pick one.  I think "the
smallest that supports ssi" is a reasonable way to choose which to install.
 Alternatively I could pick the first one alphabetically and go with apache
:-)

JD
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From tjoshi at lonix.org.uk  Wed Oct 22 16:18:49 2008
From: tjoshi at lonix.org.uk (Tushar Joshi)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 16:18:49 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [Gllug] Tomorrow : Lonix - London Linux User Group (LinuxExpo/Mac Ex
Message-ID: <1779-1224688624491078@lonix.org.uk>

Hi ,

Here are the details of the next meeting for Lonix,

Date:  Thursday 23 Oct 2008 
Time:  6.00 pm onwards
Place: Prince Albert, 11 Pembridge Rd, London, W11 3HQ
Map: http://tinyurl.com/princealbertnh 
Nearest Tube:  Nottinghill Gate (central/district/circle)  
Phone: 07980224772

Reminder about tomorrows event. 

This year the Linux Expo joins with the Mac Expo to form the Creative Pro Expo, so basically 2 shows at the same time in the same place. Lonix as usual have a stand here (volunteers needed!) and we'll be meeting up after the show Thursday at about 6.00pm.

You must register here to gain FREE entrance to the show.

http://www.linuxexpolive.co.uk/ which is FREE at the moment, but be quick! The show is on the Thursday, Friday and Saturday, but of course the best day to arrive is Thursday which is the same day as the Lonix meeting in the evening (kill two penguins with one stone).

If you'd like to help out at the show on any of the days, then please get in contact letting me know your availability. We'll have some Lonix merchandise to give away at the stand so anyone with a bit of time free please come and help out, especially since it's 3 days this year.

Nearest tube for Olympia Exhibition Center is Olympia station or a short walk from Barons Court. 

The meeting afterwards is in the Price Albert in Notting Hill and a short bus journey from Olympia. We have the back room reserved for us with a private waitress to serve us. This pub has a variety of drinks (real ale, beer and lemonade) as well as some excellent pub food. 

For those coming to the pub after the show, we'll be meeting up at the Lonix stand at 5.45 to head over in a group. As usual Linux talk, chat and networking will continue into the night.




Tushar Joshi


This e-mail was sent to you because you have subscribed to the Lonix
meetings notification e-mail list. If you have any questions concerning
this please contact us on www.lonix.org.uk/?showContact

You can get out by logging in and then clicking on mailling list on the left and then 
choose the relevant list. This will remove you once and for all. 

Your Lonix Account Details are:
Login via : http://www.lonix.org.uk
Username: gllug at linux.co.uk
Password: ******



From sanelson at gmail.com  Wed Oct 22 16:29:54 2008
From: sanelson at gmail.com (Stephen Nelson-Smith)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 16:29:54 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] Small http server with ssi?
In-Reply-To: <c1854a7c0810220813i3f3740lf46f8bfb3fd181d1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c1854a7c0810220027y7ca4d2d6rda978f055476211b@mail.gmail.com>
	<20081022100034.GB6810@cabal.org.uk>
	<c1854a7c0810220422y3807fd7w89af08ea21d2e8bf@mail.gmail.com>
	<20081022114407.GA14793@cabal.org.uk>
	<264d99b00810220503o967ab6el1355c54e1235d2d0@mail.gmail.com>
	<c1854a7c0810220813i3f3740lf46f8bfb3fd181d1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <b6131fdc0810220829m405a3c37p8c37c56b64852b28@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 4:13 PM, Jon Dye <jon at pecorous.co.uk> wrote:

> 2008/10/22 - Tethys <tethys at gmail.com>
>
>> it probably falls under the
>> "premature optimisation" banner.
>
> I'm not sure I would consider it premature optimisation.  I've got a list of
> webservers I can install using apt and I want to pick one.  I think "the
> smallest that supports ssi" is a reasonable way to choose which to install.
>  Alternatively I could pick the first one alphabetically and go with apache

I'd say it was premature if you had to invest time fiddling with /
learning a new http server.  I'd use the one which gets you the
quickest results - the one you're most familiar with - unless time !=
money for you.

S.

From jon at pecorous.co.uk  Wed Oct 22 16:42:22 2008
From: jon at pecorous.co.uk (Jon Dye)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 16:42:22 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] Small http server with ssi?
In-Reply-To: <b6131fdc0810220829m405a3c37p8c37c56b64852b28@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c1854a7c0810220027y7ca4d2d6rda978f055476211b@mail.gmail.com>
	<20081022100034.GB6810@cabal.org.uk>
	<c1854a7c0810220422y3807fd7w89af08ea21d2e8bf@mail.gmail.com>
	<20081022114407.GA14793@cabal.org.uk>
	<264d99b00810220503o967ab6el1355c54e1235d2d0@mail.gmail.com>
	<c1854a7c0810220813i3f3740lf46f8bfb3fd181d1@mail.gmail.com>
	<b6131fdc0810220829m405a3c37p8c37c56b64852b28@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c1854a7c0810220842q6fa9377cp639c8f4f80f6cdfb@mail.gmail.com>

2008/10/22 Stephen Nelson-Smith <sanelson at gmail.com>

> Hi,
>
> On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 4:13 PM, Jon Dye <jon at pecorous.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > 2008/10/22 - Tethys <tethys at gmail.com>
> >
> >> it probably falls under the
> >> "premature optimisation" banner.
> >
> > I'm not sure I would consider it premature optimisation.  I've got a list
> of
> > webservers I can install using apt and I want to pick one.  I think "the
> > smallest that supports ssi" is a reasonable way to choose which to
> install.
> >  Alternatively I could pick the first one alphabetically and go with
> apache
>
> I'd say it was premature if you had to invest time fiddling with /
> learning a new http server.  I'd use the one which gets you the
> quickest results - the one you're most familiar with - unless time !=
> money for you.


Even being quite familiar with Apache it's just taken me far less time to
get both tighttpd and thttpd installed and configured than it's ever taken
me to configure apache.  It's just a shame that their ssi support is flawed.
 It seems I'm going to end up with apache after all.

JD
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From chrisbell at overview.demon.co.uk  Thu Oct 23 08:20:11 2008
From: chrisbell at overview.demon.co.uk (Chris Bell)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 08:20:11 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [Gllug] Olympia
Message-ID: <Marcel-1.53-1023072011-c72hjSf@riscpc.localdomain>

We appear to have two adjacent stands, two tables, and four chairs, plenty of room if anyone wishes to bring a laptop,


-- 
Chris Bell NEW alternative address: chrisbell at chrisbell.org.uk
Microsoft sells you Windows ... Linux gives you the whole house.


From sanelson at gmail.com  Thu Oct 23 11:55:54 2008
From: sanelson at gmail.com (Stephen Nelson-Smith)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 11:55:54 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] Small http server with ssi?
In-Reply-To: <c1854a7c0810220842q6fa9377cp639c8f4f80f6cdfb@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c1854a7c0810220027y7ca4d2d6rda978f055476211b@mail.gmail.com>
	<20081022100034.GB6810@cabal.org.uk>
	<c1854a7c0810220422y3807fd7w89af08ea21d2e8bf@mail.gmail.com>
	<20081022114407.GA14793@cabal.org.uk>
	<264d99b00810220503o967ab6el1355c54e1235d2d0@mail.gmail.com>
	<c1854a7c0810220813i3f3740lf46f8bfb3fd181d1@mail.gmail.com>
	<b6131fdc0810220829m405a3c37p8c37c56b64852b28@mail.gmail.com>
	<c1854a7c0810220842q6fa9377cp639c8f4f80f6cdfb@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <b6131fdc0810230355y10362a5en2943b9e6007a63a8@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Jon,

> Even being quite familiar with Apache it's just taken me far less time to
> get both tighttpd and thttpd installed and configured than it's ever taken
> me to configure apache.  It's just a shame that their ssi support is flawed.
>  It seems I'm going to end up with apache after all.

If you're detemined not to use Apache, have a look at Nginx - this
does SSI just fine.

S.

From avismailinglistaccount at googlemail.com  Thu Oct 23 14:52:31 2008
From: avismailinglistaccount at googlemail.com (Avi Greenbury)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 14:52:31 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] Integrating *nixen (mostly OSX) into MS Active Directory
Message-ID: <4900819F.1060700@gmail.com>

Morning All,

I'm basically after some relatively real-world information on how easy 
it is for OSX and Linux boxes to integrate into a MS Active Directory 
domain.

For some ease of understanding, I'm a junior in an IT department of four 
at a printing company. The IT department is _very_ MS-focused, but the 
studios are exclusively Macs. We're owned by a bigger MS-focused 
company, with a non-technical head of IT.

There's been quite a bit of talk of late about network security and the 
like, and the draft security policy document suggests banning 
non-Windows clients from the network on the grounds that they cannot be 
incorporated into MS Active Directory.

I want to argue that it is possible to achieve some AD integration with 
*nix OSs (I presume I can get quite a bit with an LDAP client?), but I'm 
having fun finding any real-world information on it.

Have any of you got any experience of it, and how successful were you? 
I'm currently more after an idea of what is possible than an explanation 
of exactly how I do it (with a bit of luck I'll be back for that shortly).

-- 
Avi Greenbury :) http://aviswebsite.co.uk

From hearnsj at googlemail.com  Thu Oct 23 14:55:04 2008
From: hearnsj at googlemail.com (John Hearns)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 14:55:04 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] Integrating *nixen (mostly OSX) into MS Active Directory
In-Reply-To: <4900819F.1060700@gmail.com>
References: <4900819F.1060700@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9f8092cc0810230655l55b1eaffu3e15c8f4fbe856b2@mail.gmail.com>

2008/10/23 Avi Greenbury <avismailinglistaccount at googlemail.com>

> Morning All,
>
> I'm basically after some relatively real-world information on how easy
> it is for OSX and Linux boxes to integrate into a MS Active Directory
> domain.
>
In addition to the open source routes for doing this, there is a commercial
product.
For the life of me I can't remember the name. I will dig it out if I
remember.

And please lets not have a howl of disapproval re commercial software!
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From rich at annexia.org  Thu Oct 23 14:57:43 2008
From: rich at annexia.org (Richard Jones)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 14:57:43 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] Small http server with ssi?
In-Reply-To: <c1854a7c0810220422y3807fd7w89af08ea21d2e8bf@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c1854a7c0810220027y7ca4d2d6rda978f055476211b@mail.gmail.com>
	<20081022100034.GB6810@cabal.org.uk>
	<c1854a7c0810220422y3807fd7w89af08ea21d2e8bf@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20081023135743.GA13340@annexia.org>

On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 12:22:07PM +0100, Jon Dye wrote:
> I'm assuming it's too heavy.  I want to run it on my Viglen MPC-L which is
> already running email and fileserving.  I just wanted to aim for the
> lightest server I could that supported SSI.

I used to run Apache on a 486 laptop that had 16 MB of RAM (running
Debian), so I don't think that it'll cripple your Viglen MPC-L.

However if you really want to serve web pages out of L1 cache on your
TI OMAP-based digital watch, I can recommend you:

http://www.annexia.org/freeware/rws

It doesn't do SSI (far too heavyweight!), instead you write CGI
scripts in C and link them to the server at runtime.  There is an
SSI-lookalike in Monolith.

Rich.

-- 
Richard Jones
Red Hat

From rich at annexia.org  Thu Oct 23 15:04:03 2008
From: rich at annexia.org (Richard Jones)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 15:04:03 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] ethernet -> serial converters
In-Reply-To: <20081022134140.GQ14668@mint.phcomp.co.uk>
References: <20081022134140.GQ14668@mint.phcomp.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20081023140403.GB13340@annexia.org>

On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 02:41:40PM +0100, Alain Williams wrote:
> I have been looking at serial -> ethernet converters. Does anyone
> have any experience with these ? Are they reliable ? Do they play
> nicely with cups ?

Not with the ones you mentioned, but I did get a D-Link one for my dad
which was no end of trouble.

This box (D-Link DP 300+ ??) is a tiny embedded Linux machine and so
is limited to whatever printers the embedded Linux itself can drive.
This didn't seem to include whatever printer my dad is using.  Also
his Mac refused to talk to the box, although other Linux clients he
had were fine.

My advice would be to test extensively, and be prepared to return to
manufacturer the ones which don't work with your clients & printers.

Rich.

-- 
Richard Jones
Red Hat

From itsbruce at workshy.org  Thu Oct 23 15:37:37 2008
From: itsbruce at workshy.org (Bruce Richardson)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 15:37:37 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] Integrating *nixen (mostly OSX) into MS Active Directory
In-Reply-To: <4900819F.1060700@gmail.com>
References: <4900819F.1060700@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20081023143737.GA3084@phaistos.bruce>

On Thu, Oct 23, 2008 at 02:52:31PM +0100, Avi wrote:
> I want to argue that it is possible to achieve some AD integration with 
> *nix OSs (I presume I can get quite a bit with an LDAP client?), but I'm 
> having fun finding any real-world information on it.

Active Directory is a mixture Kerberos, DNS, LDAP and SMB/CIFS.  *nix
machines can work quite well with this.  It's probably easier on OS X
than Linux, in some respects, because OS X comes with kerberos by
default and has many kerberised clients.

I'm working in a mixed environment at the moment, with AD and Microsoft
Exchange in the office.  I start my day, on my linux workstation, by
using kinit to get a ticket-granting ticket from the AD domain
controller, after which I can mount shares and query the AD directory
heirarchy without having to type in any more user credentials (or have
them hidden in files on disk).  The Linux servers have Samba, Winbind
and Pam configured so that AD users can log in and use services using
the same username/password they use everywhere else, with no need for
any user accounts to be created on the servers.  With just a little
extra work, I could be using kerberos to authenticate agains the ssh
daemons.  If we had Exchange 2007, which finally supports Kerberos auth
for IMAP etc, I'd barely have to type in a password at all during a
working day.

Much of this should work the same for OS X and you shouldn't even need
to use kerberos tools to request a ticket - it should be handled by the
OS X login app once kerberos is enabled.

> 
> Have any of you got any experience of it, and how successful were you? 
> I'm currently more after an idea of what is possible than an explanation 
> of exactly how I do it (with a bit of luck I'll be back for that shortly).

http://www.apple.com/itpro/articles/adintegration/
http://www.linux-watch.com/news/NS9227285361.html
http://www.enterprisenetworkingplanet.com/netos/article.php/3502441
http://www.windowsnetworking.com/articles_tutorials/Authenticating-Linux-Active-Directory.html

Essentially, you can have integrated user management (up to a point),
network share management and, with the right ingredients, mail access.
That said, *nix is not Windows, so you don't get unified application
management or server management (except in the most basic sense).


-- 
Bruce

What would Edward Woodward do?

From sanelson at gmail.com  Thu Oct 23 15:43:03 2008
From: sanelson at gmail.com (Stephen Nelson-Smith)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 15:43:03 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] Tape recommendation
Message-ID: <b6131fdc0810230743k208fc86fia602d5bb8d099c4f@mail.gmail.com>

I'm about to buy a number of LTO3 tapes, to archive a few terabytes of data.

Any recommendations for manufacturer?  I see a reasonable variation in price...

S.

From Richard.Revis at truphone.com  Thu Oct 23 16:22:45 2008
From: Richard.Revis at truphone.com (Richard Revis)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 16:22:45 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] Integrating *nixen (mostly OSX) into MS Active Directory
In-Reply-To: <4900819F.1060700@gmail.com>
References: <4900819F.1060700@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <42B6D97A51EF8349B7DFD5746342DFBC01630D55@TMAIL.truphone.local>

> I want to argue that it is possible to achieve some AD 
> integration with *nix OSs (I presume I can get quite a bit 
> with an LDAP client?), but I'm having fun finding any 
> real-world information on it.
> 
> Have any of you got any experience of it, and how successful 
> were you? 

Experience of decision making in large companies, yes.

Apologies if this is inappropriate, but _argue_ set me off on a tangent :)

 - Prepare a one page overview of options.
	(There are three options here! Do nothing is an option.)
 - Provide (estimated) costs and benefits.
 - List non-tangible costs and benefits.
 - Add an exec summary at the start of one paragraph or less.

The costs should include costs of migration (in terms of time), additional hardware costs and overtime for the transition period, investigation costs, staff retraining (staff*billing rate*1 week), anything else which is > £500, and a budget for uncertainty. Don't forget to cost people at their opportunity cost, not their salary.

The non-tangible costs and benefits should include staff productivity, recruitment and retention (seriously - it's an issue for creatives and technical people who need to keep skills current), future flexibility and single source supplier vulnerability.

The summary should be unbiased, as keeping things impersonal helps cut down on the reprisals for being right :) The one page overview should be attractively laid out, with plenty of white space and large headings. This, sadly, counts for about 50% of the chance of success.

Richard

Truphone and SIM4travel are trading names of Software Cellular Network Ltd. registered in England and Wales (registered company number: 4187081). Registered office: Carmelite, 50 Victoria Embankment, Blackfriars, London EC4Y 0DX

This e-mail, and any attachment/s, may contain information which is confidential or privileged, and is intended for the addressee only.  If you are not the intended recipient, you may not disclose, copy or distribute this information in any manner whatsoever. If you have received this e-mail in error, please contact the sender immediately and delete it.

From hearnsj at googlemail.com  Thu Oct 23 18:26:13 2008
From: hearnsj at googlemail.com (John Hearns)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 18:26:13 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] Integrating *nixen (mostly OSX) into MS Active Directory
In-Reply-To: <9f8092cc0810230655l55b1eaffu3e15c8f4fbe856b2@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4900819F.1060700@gmail.com>
	<9f8092cc0810230655l55b1eaffu3e15c8f4fbe856b2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9f8092cc0810231026lfdef694rc1f56961c3e20f68@mail.gmail.com>

I asked over on the Beowulf list.
I'm almost certain the product I was thinking of is Centrify:
http://www.centrify.com/

Have a good look at that maybe?
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From mail at lordcalvin.co.uk  Thu Oct 23 21:25:21 2008
From: mail at lordcalvin.co.uk (Calvin)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 21:25:21 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] GLLUG at Olympia, October 2008
In-Reply-To: <20081022094015.GA6810@cabal.org.uk>
References: <20081013125406.GA10464@frasco.org.uk>
	<Marcel-1.53-1022071319-bc8hjSf@riscpc.localdomain>
	<20081022094015.GA6810@cabal.org.uk>
Message-ID: <74065be60810231325kcc854b6kb68e9527c6176c99@mail.gmail.com>

So there were quite a few of us at the stand today. Probably a little
over-manned :P

I found the expo good tbh, if not a little small (the Linux side anyway). It
was good to meet everybody.

Towards the end of the expo we were throwing around a few ideas and stuff
for the next one.

Here's some things that come to mind at the moment;

Firstly I think we need to figure out the Target Audience.
At the moment I think the stand is aimed at people in the know. Someone who
already knows about Linux.

Firewall demonstrations are good for the techies, but at an event like
Creative/Mac Expo, I think we could have enticed a few techies away from the
Dark Side ;-)

*Change of signage:-*
The sign above the stand was a bit non-descriptive.
Instead of just 'GLLUG' we could maybe have the full name? GLLUG doesn't
really mean much to Joe Average. Doesn't tell them what we're about.

*Games Servers:-*
I know some of the members have a load of servers just laying around. I was
thinking we could have one running a game server - maybe World of Warcraft
(most popular MMORPG).

*Gaming Machines:-*
If we did run a WoW server, we could have a desktop machine running the game
client, so people can have a little play and see that 1) WoW works on Linux,
and 2) they can have their own private server running at home, on Linux.
[WoW runs on pretty low specs, so that shouldn't be a problem.]

*Gnome Basic Desktop/Netbook:-*
I also think it'd be nice to have one desktop running for newbies like
Mum/Dad... Apps like Open Office, Firefox.
Would be perfect if we could have a netbook running for this.
The reason I say Gnome Desktop is because the Ubuntu/Gnome Live CD is
perfect for this example.

*Designer Desktop:-*
Another thing we could do at a shared expo like this one, is show off all
the design applications.
Stuff like Maya, Inkscape and of course Gimp.

*Regarding the .org village* itself, another thing we were discussing was
the posibility of having sit-downs.
I think this would be really cool. From a non-technical side, what if we had
someone who knows a thing or two about Gimp, showing that it's actually
worthy of Photoshop competition, with join-in tutorials.
Obviously anyone can sit down with their laptop, install Gimp (grab it off
our wireless network?) and join in. Nice and simple.
Then from a technical side, we could have some demonstrations - someone from
debian could setup a server? Then someone from drupal could setup drupal on
this server? It would be possible for the .org village to work together this
way and create something that competes with the Mac Overdose on the other
side of the expo...

Just a few ideas to bounce off.

Calvin
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From caroline.ford.work at googlemail.com  Thu Oct 23 21:39:53 2008
From: caroline.ford.work at googlemail.com (Caroline Ford)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 21:39:53 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] GLLUG at Olympia, October 2008
In-Reply-To: <74065be60810231325kcc854b6kb68e9527c6176c99@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20081013125406.GA10464@frasco.org.uk>
	<Marcel-1.53-1022071319-bc8hjSf@riscpc.localdomain>
	<20081022094015.GA6810@cabal.org.uk>
	<74065be60810231325kcc854b6kb68e9527c6176c99@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <cbc01cde0810231339w10936524nc29bc41f64d2ef87@mail.gmail.com>

2008/10/23 Calvin <mail at lordcalvin.co.uk>:
>
> Games Servers:-
> I know some of the members have a load of servers just laying around. I was
> thinking we could have one running a game server - maybe World of Warcraft
> (most popular MMORPG).
>
> Gaming Machines:-
> If we did run a WoW server, we could have a desktop machine running the game
> client, so people can have a little play and see that 1) WoW works on Linux,
> and 2) they can have their own private server running at home, on Linux.
> [WoW runs on pretty low specs, so that shouldn't be a problem.]
>

I think Wow servers are illegal, aren't they? Think you are only
supposed to use Blizzards.

Wow runs under wine - there are native linux games and clients out
there. Second Life is a good one and is actually open source.

> Stuff like Maya, Inkscape and of course Gimp.
>
Maya is expensive!

> Regarding the .org village itself, another thing we were discussing was the
> posibility of having sit-downs.
> I think this would be really cool. From a non-technical side, what if we had
> someone who knows a thing or two about Gimp, showing that it's actually
> worthy of Photoshop competition, with join-in tutorials.

But it's not, and I say this as someone who does a lot of artwork.
Inkscape is great, the gimp is overrated. Flogging the gimp at a
MacExpo would be embarrassing
.
Caroline

From mail at lordcalvin.co.uk  Thu Oct 23 23:20:31 2008
From: mail at lordcalvin.co.uk (Calvin)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 23:20:31 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] GLLUG at Olympia, October 2008
In-Reply-To: <cbc01cde0810231339w10936524nc29bc41f64d2ef87@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20081013125406.GA10464@frasco.org.uk>
	<Marcel-1.53-1022071319-bc8hjSf@riscpc.localdomain>
	<20081022094015.GA6810@cabal.org.uk>
	<74065be60810231325kcc854b6kb68e9527c6176c99@mail.gmail.com>
	<cbc01cde0810231339w10936524nc29bc41f64d2ef87@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <74065be60810231520x51760544rbaebb37f931f40a6@mail.gmail.com>

The legality of WoW is questionable :P
Emulated servers arn't illegal. But connecting to one using the WoW client
does break the EULA.

Second Life is a good idea. I didn't know it was possible to host your own
servers. Seems someone has reverse engineered an emu-server and made it open
source. I'll have a look at OpenSim and see how it is.
The specifics of the game isn't important, just the idea. Hosting a game
server and a client machine, for people to see/play with Live. I was just
trying to think of something extremely popular, and WoW fits the bill.

Autodesk do offer a free version of Maya for non-commercial use. So that
shouldn't be a problem.

I don't think Gimp is over rated, it really can do a lot. But again it's not
the specific package that's important. More the idea of doing a demo of a
FOSS alternative to an Adobe product at a Mac Expo. That would be cool, no?
=]
If you're an Inkscape fan, maybe you could do something like Inkscape vs
Freehand/Illustrator?

Calvin


On Thu, Oct 23, 2008 at 9:39 PM, Caroline Ford <
caroline.ford.work at googlemail.com> wrote:

> 2008/10/23 Calvin <mail at lordcalvin.co.uk>:
> >
> > Games Servers:-
> > I know some of the members have a load of servers just laying around. I
> was
> > thinking we could have one running a game server - maybe World of
> Warcraft
> > (most popular MMORPG).
> >
> > Gaming Machines:-
> > If we did run a WoW server, we could have a desktop machine running the
> game
> > client, so people can have a little play and see that 1) WoW works on
> Linux,
> > and 2) they can have their own private server running at home, on Linux.
> > [WoW runs on pretty low specs, so that shouldn't be a problem.]
> >
>
> I think Wow servers are illegal, aren't they? Think you are only
> supposed to use Blizzards.
>
> Wow runs under wine - there are native linux games and clients out
> there. Second Life is a good one and is actually open source.
>
> > Stuff like Maya, Inkscape and of course Gimp.
> >
> Maya is expensive!
>
> > Regarding the .org village itself, another thing we were discussing was
> the
> > posibility of having sit-downs.
> > I think this would be really cool. From a non-technical side, what if we
> had
> > someone who knows a thing or two about Gimp, showing that it's actually
> > worthy of Photoshop competition, with join-in tutorials.
>
> But it's not, and I say this as someone who does a lot of artwork.
> Inkscape is great, the gimp is overrated. Flogging the gimp at a
> MacExpo would be embarrassing
> .
> Caroline
> --
> Gllug mailing list  -  Gllug at gllug.org.uk
> http://lists.gllug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/gllug
>
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From sta296 at astradyne.co.uk  Thu Oct 23 23:31:35 2008
From: sta296 at astradyne.co.uk (Tethys)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 23:31:35 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] GLLUG at Olympia, October 2008
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 23 Oct 2008 21:39:53 BST."
	<cbc01cde0810231339w10936524nc29bc41f64d2ef87@mail.gmail.com> 
References: <20081013125406.GA10464@frasco.org.uk>
	<Marcel-1.53-1022071319-bc8hjSf@riscpc.localdomain>
	<20081022094015.GA6810@cabal.org.uk>
	<74065be60810231325kcc854b6kb68e9527c6176c99@mail.gmail.com> 
	<cbc01cde0810231339w10936524nc29bc41f64d2ef87@mail.gmail.com> 
Message-ID: <200810232231.m9NMVZSF000856@leto.astradyne.corp>

--------

"Caroline Ford" writes:

>I think Wow servers are illegal, aren't they? Think you are only
>supposed to use Blizzards.

Which law do you think they're breaking? I can understand why Blizzard
might not want you to run your own server. But illegal? Probably not.

Tet

From hearnsj at googlemail.com  Fri Oct 24 12:55:36 2008
From: hearnsj at googlemail.com (John Hearns)
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 12:55:36 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] HPC job advert
Message-ID: <9f8092cc0810240455v4ef3e230hae7b372522088921@mail.gmail.com>

In the pub last night, I was asked about the current job market in high
performance computing.
I found this rather curious job advert on the Gumtree site for Norwich:

http://norwich.gumtree.com/norwich/65/28567165.html
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From jjllmmss at googlemail.com  Fri Oct 24 17:43:51 2008
From: jjllmmss at googlemail.com (Jose Luis Martinez)
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 17:43:51 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] Integrating *nixen (mostly OSX) into MS Active Directory
In-Reply-To: <4900819F.1060700@gmail.com>
References: <4900819F.1060700@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <d6736b830810240943t68644c98le53e23c94376c001@mail.gmail.com>

2008/10/23 Avi Greenbury <avismailinglistaccount at googlemail.com>:

>
> I want to argue that it is possible to achieve some AD integration with
> *nix OSs (I presume I can get quite a bit with an LDAP client?), but I'm
> having fun finding any real-world information on it.

Strictly speaking there is not such a thing as an LDAP client, what
you need is to investigate about kerberos and thank the community (Red
Hat mostly I believe) who have released kerberized applications that
can make use of a kerberos ticket.

Have a look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_sign-on , it may
start you in the right direction.

In general terms this is how a solution would work:

-User logins to Linux machine and is authenticated using LDAP data
(thus you need to configure your machine to talk to the AD server, no
experience with this, it may not be possible, or you may need to make
data dumps from AD to an LDAP server than could talk to your client,
in synthesis terrible tricky).

-Once user is logged in he has to get a kerberos ticket (this may be automated).

-Once the kerberos ticket is obtained the user launches applications
that can use such tickets and thus require no further authentication
(lets say an email client, who no longer would ask you IMAP or POP3
information to check your email, which is what happens with Outlook in
the MS world).


>
> Have any of you got any experience of it, and how successful were you?
> I'm currently more after an idea of what is possible than an explanation
> of exactly how I do it (with a bit of luck I'll be back for that shortly).
>

It is not a trivial exercise, separating the machines for
authentication purposes is perfectly doable and perhaps the easiest
route, but security should not be really mentioned as an issue. If the
AD servers are configured correctly I fail to see why a non MS client
would be  more insecure.

From ryan at crimperman.org  Fri Oct 24 18:21:00 2008
From: ryan at crimperman.org (Ryan Cartwright)
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 18:21:00 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] Integrating *nixen (mostly OSX) into MS Active Directory
In-Reply-To: <4900819F.1060700@gmail.com>
References: <4900819F.1060700@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <490203FC.40607@crimperman.org>

Avi Greenbury wrote:
> Morning All,
> 
> I'm basically after some relatively real-world information on how easy 
> it is for OSX and Linux boxes to integrate into a MS Active Directory 
> domain.

I'm probably a bit late with this but (while waiting in Smiths for a
train yesterday) I noticed that the "November" issue of Linux Magazine
had a piece/howto on integration with Active Directory et al. I haven't
read it but it might be worth checking out. I don't think it mentioned
OSX though.

There's an introduction to it on their website:

http://www.linux-magazine.com/issues/2008/96/smart_access

cheers
-- 
Ryan Cartwright
http://www.cafamily.org.uk/oss
http://www.freesoftwaremagazine.com/poster/8833

From avismailinglistaccount at googlemail.com  Fri Oct 24 18:37:08 2008
From: avismailinglistaccount at googlemail.com (Avi Greenbury)
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 18:37:08 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] Integrating *nixen (mostly OSX) into MS Active Directory
In-Reply-To: <42B6D97A51EF8349B7DFD5746342DFBC01630D55@TMAIL.truphone.local>
References: <4900819F.1060700@gmail.com>
	<42B6D97A51EF8349B7DFD5746342DFBC01630D55@TMAIL.truphone.local>
Message-ID: <490207C4.4090104@gmail.com>

Got a bit hectic at work, haven't been able to respond. Not entirely 
sure of the correct etiquette for responding to multiple same-subject 
emails, so I've put them all in one mail which might make the threading 
a bit more messy (sorry), but keeps me a lot more sane.

In the interim, it's been decided that non-admin (i.e. production) PCs 
are allowed to not run Windows, which means the Studio can keep their 
macs. I'd still like to push the idea of integrating them into AD (or 
some other windows-user-friendly means of remote group administration), 
as much for the ease of administration as the chance to demonstrate that 
it's not just Windows that can do it.

Richard Revis wrote:
>> I want to argue that it is possible to achieve some AD 
>> integration with *nix OSs (I presume I can get quite a bit 
>> with an LDAP client?), but I'm having fun finding any 
>> real-world information on it.
>>
>> Have any of you got any experience of it, and how successful 
>> were you? 
> 
> Experience of decision making in large companies, yes.
> 
> Apologies if this is inappropriate, but _argue_ set me off on a tangent :)

Yeah, argue was possibly not the best choice of wording....

I'm not likely to find myself in a position where I can present this - 
the level at which this policy is written is such that it is my boss who 
conforms to it by ensuring that we do. He'll be in the relevant 
meetings, but he's also got an MCSE and makes funny faces when I mention 
postfix.
When it was first mentioned that we were to become an exclusively 
Windows network for security, I was a bit dumbstruck, and what I'm 
mostly after is an ability to informally reassure my boss and the rest 
of the dept that I'm in that we can fulfil the end result bits of this 
proposed policy (a secure network) without necessarily getting rid of 
all the macs.

Though I will likely follow your process through in any event, if only 
so I know it is (or maybe isn't) a reasonable idea.

John Hearns wrote:
 > I asked over on the Beowulf list.
 > I'm almost certain the product I was thinking of is Centrify:
 > http://www.centrify.com/
 >
 > Have a good look at that maybe?
 >

I've just had a quick look, I'll see if I can get some approximate costs 
for that on Monday, I think.
Commercial software is certainly generally seen as the better bet by 
default here (what do they teach on MCSEs?)

Jose Luis Martinez wrote:
 >
 > It is not a trivial exercise, separating the machines for
 > authentication purposes is perfectly doable and perhaps the easiest
 > route, but security should not be really mentioned as an issue. If the
 > AD servers are configured correctly I fail to see why a non MS client
 > would be  more insecure.
 >
The security aspect, as I understand it, comes from the idea that things 
like forcing USB keys to be encrypted and the like can be done under 
Active Directory. Personally, I think there's been a bit of confusion 
between the means and the end, but I wasn't present at the meeting...

Ryan Cartwright wrote:
 > I'm probably a bit late with this but (while waiting in Smiths for a
 > train yesterday) I noticed that the "November" issue of Linux Magazine
 > had a piece/howto on integration with Active Directory et al. I haven't
 > read it but it might be worth checking out. I don't think it mentioned
 > OSX though.

Ah, perfect!
I'll have a look at/for that on my way home. Cheers!


-- 
Avi Greenbury :) http://aviswebsite.co.uk

From tethys at gmail.com  Fri Oct 24 18:40:27 2008
From: tethys at gmail.com (- Tethys)
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 18:40:27 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] Integrating *nixen (mostly OSX) into MS Active Directory
In-Reply-To: <490207C4.4090104@gmail.com>
References: <4900819F.1060700@gmail.com>
	<42B6D97A51EF8349B7DFD5746342DFBC01630D55@TMAIL.truphone.local>
	<490207C4.4090104@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <264d99b00810241040y3d3b74adp39d2f3a8f5ed5e46@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Oct 24, 2008 at 6:37 PM, Avi Greenbury
<avismailinglistaccount at googlemail.com> wrote:

> The security aspect, as I understand it, comes from the idea that things
> like forcing USB keys to be encrypted and the like can be done under
> Active Directory.

No it can't. Anyone that believes it can is deluding themselves.

Tet

-- 
Perl is like vise grips. You can do anything with it but it is the
wrong tool for every job. -- Bruce Eckel

From mblackmore at oxlug.org  Fri Oct 24 22:54:40 2008
From: mblackmore at oxlug.org (M.Blackmore)
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 22:54:40 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] SATA card recommendations.
In-Reply-To: <48E69C18.2010303@lgeezer.net>
References: <732076a80810011447i10fbe235ub0a228dd678d9e0e@mail.gmail.com>
	<48E46315.7040305@sinodun.org.uk> <20081002093244.GP7492@hades.eco.li>
	<1223071397.6487.57.camel@malcolm-desktop-xpc>
	<48E69C18.2010303@lgeezer.net>
Message-ID: <1224885280.6641.17.camel@malcolm-desktop-xpc>

On Fri, 2008-10-03 at 23:26 +0100, Alistair Mann wrote:
> You had a k in front of your b? 

It's a long time ago and I might not remember correctly (especially on
the heavy meds I'm forced to take nowadays). But it was a very highly
specified minicomputer of its day - a well stuffed PDP11 with all the
trimmings *including* a few CRT monitors. So there probably were some
k's in front.

Still piss useless for modelling artificial intelligence strategies...


From mblackmore at oxlug.org  Fri Oct 24 22:55:15 2008
From: mblackmore at oxlug.org (M.Blackmore)
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 22:55:15 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] SATA card recommendations.
In-Reply-To: <20081004001703.427c894f@Rosebud.Harmony>
References: <732076a80810011447i10fbe235ub0a228dd678d9e0e@mail.gmail.com>
	<48E46315.7040305@sinodun.org.uk> <20081002093244.GP7492@hades.eco.li>
	<1223071397.6487.57.camel@malcolm-desktop-xpc>
	<48E69C18.2010303@lgeezer.net>
	<20081004001703.427c894f@Rosebud.Harmony>
Message-ID: <1224885315.6641.18.camel@malcolm-desktop-xpc>

On Sat, 2008-10-04 at 00:17 +0100, John G Walker wrote:
> and it were
> always set to false,

Wasn't that the moth that got fried?


From nix at esperi.org.uk  Sat Oct 25 00:38:56 2008
From: nix at esperi.org.uk (Nix)
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 00:38:56 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] Integrating *nixen (mostly OSX) into MS Active Directory
In-Reply-To: <264d99b00810241040y3d3b74adp39d2f3a8f5ed5e46@mail.gmail.com>
	(tethys@gmail.com's message of "Fri, 24 Oct 2008 18:40:27 +0100")
References: <4900819F.1060700@gmail.com>
	<42B6D97A51EF8349B7DFD5746342DFBC01630D55@TMAIL.truphone.local>
	<490207C4.4090104@gmail.com>
	<264d99b00810241040y3d3b74adp39d2f3a8f5ed5e46@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <87prlpd0mn.fsf@hades.wkstn.nix>

On 24 Oct 2008, tethys at gmail.com said:

> On Fri, Oct 24, 2008 at 6:37 PM, Avi Greenbury
> <avismailinglistaccount at googlemail.com> wrote:
>
>> The security aspect, as I understand it, comes from the idea that things
>> like forcing USB keys to be encrypted and the like can be done under
>> Active Directory.
>
> No it can't. Anyone that believes it can is deluding themselves.

Anyone that believes it can doesn't have any idea about the difference
between authentication and encryption. (Not uncommon :( )

-- 
`Not even vi uses vi key bindings for its command line.' --- PdS

From rich at annexia.org  Thu Oct 23 20:23:46 2008
From: rich at annexia.org (Richard Jones)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 20:23:46 +0100
Subject: [Gllug] iKit multimedia messenger
Message-ID: <20081023192346.GA7523@annexia.org>


Anyone tried it?

http://www.comsciences.com/product.htm

Rich.

-- 
Richard Jones
Red Hat

From avismailinglistaccount at googlemail.com  Sun Oct 26 10:04:36 2008
From: avismailinglistaccount at googlemail.com (Avi Greenbury)
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 10:04:36 +0000
Subject: [Gllug] Integrating *nixen (mostly OSX) into MS Active Directory
In-Reply-To: <9f8092cc0810231026lfdef694rc1f56961c3e20f68@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4900819F.1060700@gmail.com>	<9f8092cc0810230655l55b1eaffu3e15c8f4fbe856b2@mail.gmail.com>
	<9f8092cc0810231026lfdef694rc1f56961c3e20f68@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <490440B4.2080002@gmail.com>

John Hearns wrote:
> I asked over on the Beowulf list.
> I'm almost certain the product I was thinking of is Centrify:
> http://www.centrify.com/
> 
> Have a good look at that maybe?
> 

Got to the Expo yesterday, and Rapid had a stand up in front of me 
pushing it. Had a look at it, if it's as good as the vendor says it is, 
it's pretty much what we want. I've got a whole load of propaganda from 
them, so I'll have a good look at it. Just had a brief word with my 
boss, he's been pondering it, too.

-- 
Avi Greenbury :) http://aviswebsite.co.uk

From gllug at eco.li  Mon Oct 27 10:24:38 2008
From: gllug at eco.li (Dan Kolb)
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 10:24:38 +0000
Subject: [Gllug] [FW: UKUUG Linux 2008 Conference: Manchester, November 8-9]
Message-ID: <20081027102438.GD7492@hades.eco.li>

----- Forwarded message from Alasdair G Kergon <agk at ukuug.org> -----

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
               UKUUG Linux Conference 2008 - Manchester

                 Saturday 8th - Sunday 9th November

               http://www.ukuug.org/events/linux2008/
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

This year's event consists of a twin-track conference over the weekend,
preceded by a full-day Python Web Workshop on Friday 7th November.

This year, we're offering a discounted conference rate of just 60 pounds
for members of UK Linux User Groups provided you book by next Wednesday
(29th October).  The student rate is 20 pounds.  (Separate fees apply
for Friday's Python Web Workshop.)

Please use the following URL to book online at this discounted rate or
contact UKUUG during office hours on 01763 273 475 or office at ukuug.org.
        http://www.ukuug.org/events/linux2008/bookinglug/

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Accessibility and Advocacy
    * Continuity in development using external developers - John I Davies - iT4C
    * Marketing Open Source Software - Sandro Groganz - InitMarketing
    * Desktop Adapted for Dad - Adam Trickett

Applications
    * Home Automation - Steven Goodwin
    * Ingres CAFE - John Smedley - Ingres

Grids and Clusters
    * Distributed evolutionary algorithms with the Geneva library
    * Grid and Clouds in the LHC era
        - Dr. Ruediger Berlich - Karlsruhe Institute of Technology
    * GridSolve: A nice tool for distributed computing 
        - Marcus Hardt - Karlsruhe Institute of Technology
    * Cross-Platform Virtual Machines - Paul Knowles - Transitive

Kernel
    * Infrastructure for PCIe endpoint devices 
    * Porting Linux to a new architecture - the right way
        - Arnd Bergmann - IBM Deutschland Research & Development
    * Run time power management - it's not just suspend and resume 
        - Matthew Garrett - Red Hat
    * Supersweet 15 - tales of a filesystems in puberty 
        - Christoph Hellwig - LST e.V.
    * A Whole Family of Penguins - Kyle McMartin - Red Hat

Sysadmin
    * Organising sysadmin documentation - Jon Dowland - Newcastle University
    * Python and System Administration - John Pinner - Linux Emporium

Web
    * An introduction to web application security flaws - Jake Edge - LWN.net
    * Lead into Gold: Catalyst refactoring, optimisation and testing 
        - Matt S Trout - Shadowcat Systems Limited
    * Coding in Pyjamas: Apps for Desktop and the Web
    * FULL-DAY FRIDAY Pure Python Web Workshop: Pyjamas + JSONRPC + Django 
        - Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton

Subject to change - check http://www.ukuug.org/events/linux2008/ 

------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Event sponsored by:  Novell Sun IBM Google Transitive InitMarketing  |
------------------------------------------------------------------------

----- End forwarded message -----

From unixadmin99 at gmail.com  Mon Oct 27 11:18:41 2008
From: unixadmin99 at gmail.com (michael enoma aghayere)
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 11:18:41 +0000
Subject: [Gllug] [OT] Room to Rent in London...
Message-ID: <6f6f39580810270418m3872a184r425ba3ba0728ea87@mail.gmail.com>

Hi People.

My friend Hayley is looking for a house mate. She has particularly
asked that this time she would prefer a nerd/geek.

Here's the blurb:

Single room in lovely split level flat in Wanstead, London E11.
Flat is just off high street near to shops, bars, pubs etc.
Five minute walk from two central line stations Wanstead & Snaresbrook
£110 per week, all bills included
Share with one other professional and 2 cats, no smoking, available immediately.
Contact Hayley on:  07956 986747

-- 
~michael
www.BSDqed.com

From rhowe at siksai.co.uk  Mon Oct 27 13:32:49 2008
From: rhowe at siksai.co.uk (Russell Howe)
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 13:32:49 +0000
Subject: [Gllug] [Gllug-Social] [OT] Room to Rent in London...
In-Reply-To: <6f6f39580810270418m3872a184r425ba3ba0728ea87@mail.gmail.com>
References: <6f6f39580810270418m3872a184r425ba3ba0728ea87@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4905C301.1060501@siksai.co.uk>

michael enoma aghayere wrote, sometime around 27/10/08 11:18:
> Hi People.
> 
> My friend Hayley is looking for a house mate. She has particularly
> asked that this time she would prefer a nerd/geek.
> 
> Here's the blurb:
> 
> Single room in lovely split level flat in Wanstead, London E11.
> Flat is just off high street near to shops, bars, pubs etc.
> Five minute walk from two central line stations Wanstead & Snaresbrook
> £110 per week, all bills included
> Share with one other professional and 2 cats, no smoking, available immediately.
> Contact Hayley on:  07956 986747

I'm with Andrew on this one - you missed the "... and if you'd like to 
talk about it over a pint, meet up at <insert pub> on <date> at <time>"!

I suggest the Two Brewers, 121 Whitecross Street on Thursday evening, 
say 6pm onwards? Went there on Friday and it was very friendly although 
not much of a beer selection. Dartboard, no food but you're welcome to 
bring your own from Waitrose across the street or one of the 
restaurants/takeaways nearby. There's a decent enough Fuller's pub 
around the corner too if people want to decamp.

OK, so it's nowhere near W11, but it's near work for me :P

http://www.beerintheevening.com/pubs/s/43/4322/Two_Brewers/Barbican

Oh, and I'm not looking to move in, just looking for a pint or two after 
work :)

-- 
Russell Howe
rhowe at siksai.co.uk

From ivnmad at gmail.com  Tue Oct 28 00:34:26 2008
From: ivnmad at gmail.com (Ivan Virgili)
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 00:34:26 +0000
Subject: [Gllug] Integrating *nixen (mostly OSX) into MS Active Directory
In-Reply-To: <4900819F.1060700@gmail.com>
References: <4900819F.1060700@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49065E12.7080309@gmail.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 23/10/08 14:52, Avi Greenbury wrote:
> Morning All,
> 
> I'm basically after some relatively real-world information on how easy 
> it is for OSX and Linux boxes to integrate into a MS Active Directory 
> domain.

I am not sure this is what you are looking for, but...

Red Hat Enterprise IPA (http://www.redhat.com/enterprise_ipa/) might be
of help. It can, or it will soon be able to, synchronise with MS Active
Directory.

FreeIPA could also be an option, but it would be unsupported.

Ivan

- --
Ivan Virgili
http://www.ivanvirgili.com
GNU/Linux user #292882
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From ziya at suzen.net  Tue Oct 28 10:59:25 2008
From: ziya at suzen.net (Ziya Suzen)
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 10:59:25 +0000
Subject: [Gllug] Disconnected ssh sessions and pseudo-terminals
Message-ID: <7e7471f80810280359l3b8368f5l7763795555a8a5d@mail.gmail.com>

Hi there

Sometimes I hate my ADSL provider. Connections keep dropping
and I loose my SSH connections. What I usually do is to ignore
them and open new SSH sessions. However it gets annoying
when you have an editor already opened on a file, you 'ps' it
and see it opened there, but you can't exit the editor (vi) or take
control of the now not-used pts.

I have tried a few tricks without any luck:

Exit the Editor:
 # echo -n ^[ >> /dev/pts/1
 # echo -n :x >> /dev/pts/1

(Note:key combination typed for escape: ctrl+v, Esc)

And hopelessly tried 'screen' to get to the orphan terminal :(

Any ideas?

Cheers

--Ziya

From gllug at lgeezer.net  Tue Oct 28 11:20:18 2008
From: gllug at lgeezer.net (Alistair Mann)
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 11:20:18 +0000
Subject: [Gllug] Disconnected ssh sessions and pseudo-terminals
In-Reply-To: <7e7471f80810280359l3b8368f5l7763795555a8a5d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7e7471f80810280359l3b8368f5l7763795555a8a5d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4906F572.6050207@lgeezer.net>

Ziya Suzen wrote:
> Hi there
> 
> Sometimes I hate my ADSL provider. Connections keep dropping
> and I loose my SSH connections. What I usually do is to ignore
> them and open new SSH sessions. However it gets annoying
> when you have an editor already opened on a file, you 'ps' it
> and see it opened there, but you can't exit the editor (vi) or take
> control of the now not-used pts.
> 
> I have tried a few tricks without any luck:
> 
> Exit the Editor:
>  # echo -n ^[ >> /dev/pts/1
>  # echo -n :x >> /dev/pts/1
> 
> (Note:key combination typed for escape: ctrl+v, Esc)
> 
> And hopelessly tried 'screen' to get to the orphan terminal :(
> 
> Any ideas?

Vi will gracefully terminate if you send it a signal:

$ kill -SIGHUP <process id>

Graceful includes preserving whatever's in the editor but unsaved.

That help?
-- 
Alistair Mann

From pancro at gmail.com  Tue Oct 28 11:33:08 2008
From: pancro at gmail.com (Pancro)
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 11:33:08 +0000
Subject: [Gllug] Disconnected ssh sessions and pseudo-terminals
In-Reply-To: <7e7471f80810280359l3b8368f5l7763795555a8a5d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7e7471f80810280359l3b8368f5l7763795555a8a5d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <bb684e540810280433w3ac55cb3t11f637b0f673ce31@mail.gmail.com>

> And hopelessly tried 'screen' to get to the orphan terminal :(
>
> Any ideas?

Screen is not useful after the processes you want to "protect" have
started in the terminal.

If you start screen as soon as you ssh into your host and run your
processes from there, you will be able to reattach to the session
without problems. I do it routinely at work to have my mutt and irssi
sessions always on an internal server and then I attach to my email
and IRC from wherever I am, from home, from my laptop, when
travelling, etc.

The commands I use the most are:

"screen" (obviously) to start a new session
"screen -dr" to attach to a running session (detaching it from
somewhere else if needed)
Ctrl-a followed by A to give a name to the window
Ctrl-a followed by d to detach the session and keep my processes running
Ctrl-a followed by c to create a new window within the current screen session
Ctrl-a followed by p to move to the previous window in the screen session
Ctrl-a followed by n to move to the next window in the screen session
Ctrl-a followed by a to send ^A to the process (e.g. go to the
beginning of the line in many cases)

I'm a fairly basic screen user and the commands above do all I need,
many more are available and documented in the usual places.

ezio

From white.gavin at gmail.com  Tue Oct 28 13:21:45 2008
From: white.gavin at gmail.com (Gavin White)
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 13:21:45 +0000
Subject: [Gllug] VACANCY: ISP admin in Tanzania
Message-ID: <451eaded0810280621t115fbf7jcb8a1540a5333ab6@mail.gmail.com>

Hello,

A friend of mine is looking for someone to help run his ISP in
Tanzania for a year. I worked there myself some time ago, and it is a
very interesting and wide ranging role. If anyone is interested in
going I'd be happy to meet them in London and give some background
information. Tanzania is the place with Zanzibar, Mount Kilimanjaro
and all the safari parks.

Skills: basic ISP sysadmin stuff: linux admin, networking (cisco,
various wireless transmission devices), mail & web admin,
bash/perl/sql
Location: Dar es Salaam, Tanzania
Type of employer: ISP
Salary: US$2,000/month + expenses (apartment, flights etc)

The company is www.raha.com

Regards,

Gavin

From damion.yates at gmail.com  Tue Oct 28 13:31:40 2008
From: damion.yates at gmail.com (damion.yates at gmail.com)
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 13:31:40 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [Gllug] Disconnected ssh sessions and pseudo-terminals
In-Reply-To: <7e7471f80810280359l3b8368f5l7763795555a8a5d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7e7471f80810280359l3b8368f5l7763795555a8a5d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.0810281323330.23800@gilmore.trap.me.uk>

On Tue, 28 Oct 2008, Ziya Suzen wrote:

> Sometimes I hate my ADSL provider. Connections keep dropping and I
> loose my SSH connections.

Have you tried looking at ssh keepalive options?  I've had sessions open
for weeks without issue with mine.  You could change ISPs.  Or perhaps a
VPN to your shell account can retain an virtual interface and IP despite
crumbling underlying connections?

> What I usually do is to ignore them and open new SSH sessions. However
> it gets annoying when you have an editor already opened on a file, you
> 'ps' it and see it opened there, but you can't exit the editor (vi) or
> take control of the now not-used pts.
> 
> I have tried a few tricks without any luck:
> 
> Exit the Editor:
>  # echo -n ^[ >> /dev/pts/1
>  # echo -n :x >> /dev/pts/1

I suspect /dev/pts/<anything> corresponds to your current virtual
terminal.  You'll need to dig around in /proc/<its PID>/fd/* perhaps to
echo to the right thing.  Actually in there you should be able to cat
the contents of those file-descriptors to somewhere safe and examine
them, they should contain your file.

Not that this is likely to work.
 
> (Note:key combination typed for escape: ctrl+v, Esc)
> 
> Any ideas?

If it's vim* sending a kill -1 (SIGHUP) should get it to close reasonably
cleanly.  You should also be able to vi it and see the state of the file
via its swap file.  You're faced with multiple options:

Found a swap file by the name ".example.txt.swp"
          owned by: damion   dated: Tue Oct 28 13:26:22 2008
         file name: ~damion/example.txt
          modified: no
         user name: damion   host name: aa.secret.domain.com
        process ID: 10985 (still running)
While opening file "example.txt"

Swap file ".example.txt.swp" already exists!
[O]pen Read-Only, (E)dit anyway, (R)ecover, (Q)uit, (A)bort: 

*Or even if it's not, most vi versions deal well with a hangup signal,
old SunOS boxes I used in the past would email me the file in that
situation :)

> And hopelessly tried 'screen' to get to the orphan terminal :(

I love screen and use it all the time.  I would rate it as the best
application I have ever used in the world ever!

You need to start screen first and learn to use its power.  Then you'd
be able to recover from a dropped connection trivially.

In some rare and oldendays circumstances you could attach in to a
processes ttys, but this is a bug not a thing to recover vi sessions.

Good luck,

Damion

From addw at phcomp.co.uk  Tue Oct 28 13:43:36 2008
From: addw at phcomp.co.uk (Alain Williams)
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 13:43:36 +0000
Subject: [Gllug] Disconnected ssh sessions and pseudo-terminals
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.0810281323330.23800@gilmore.trap.me.uk>
References: <7e7471f80810280359l3b8368f5l7763795555a8a5d@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.0810281323330.23800@gilmore.trap.me.uk>
Message-ID: <20081028134336.GH5044@mint.phcomp.co.uk>

On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 01:31:40PM +0000, damion.yates at gmail.com wrote:
> On Tue, 28 Oct 2008, Ziya Suzen wrote:
> 
> > Sometimes I hate my ADSL provider. Connections keep dropping and I
> > loose my SSH connections.
> 
> Have you tried looking at ssh keepalive options?  I've had sessions open
> for weeks without issue with mine.  You could change ISPs.  Or perhaps a
> VPN to your shell account can retain an virtual interface and IP despite
> crumbling underlying connections?

He is loosing it because the broadband connection drops for a few seconds and this
causes the stateful firewall in the BB modem to reset.

I do just as you say with some sites, have a VPN - which is UDP based, so on
BB outage a few packets get lost and then everything is back where it was.
ssh sessions intact.

-- 
Alain Williams
Linux/GNU Consultant - Mail systems, Web sites, Networking, Programmer, IT Lecturer.
+44 (0) 787 668 0256  http://www.phcomp.co.uk/
Parliament Hill Computers Ltd. Registration Information: http://www.phcomp.co.uk/contact.php
Past chairman of UKUUG: http://www.ukuug.org/
#include <std_disclaimer.h>

From martin at hinterlands.org  Tue Oct 28 14:12:42 2008
From: martin at hinterlands.org (Martin A. Brooks)
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 14:12:42 +0000
Subject: [Gllug] [ot] unsolicited mail from LPI-UK
Message-ID: <49071DDA.6050504@hinterlands.org>


LPI-UK subscribed my personal email address to their UK "alumni" list 
and have used it to send UCE.

I'm wondering if any other GLLUG members also got this message.  I'm 
currently awaiting a reply with an explanation as to how they got hold 
of my address.

From alan at popey.com  Tue Oct 28 14:17:38 2008
From: alan at popey.com (Alan Pope)
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 14:17:38 +0000
Subject: [Gllug] [ot] unsolicited mail from LPI-UK
In-Reply-To: <49071DDA.6050504@hinterlands.org>
References: <49071DDA.6050504@hinterlands.org>
Message-ID: <eba6d2300810280717s78b61f10ibbdba3668a25f9a9@mail.gmail.com>

2008/10/28 Martin A. Brooks <martin at hinterlands.org>:
> I'm wondering if any other GLLUG members also got this message.  I'm
> currently awaiting a reply with an explanation as to how they got hold
> of my address.

I did, but they could have got it from any one of 100+ LUG mailing
lists, not necessarily this one.

Cheers,
Al.

From avismailinglistaccount at googlemail.com  Tue Oct 28 14:25:51 2008
From: avismailinglistaccount at googlemail.com (Avi Greenbury)
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 14:25:51 +0000
Subject: [Gllug] [ot] unsolicited mail from LPI-UK
In-Reply-To: <49071DDA.6050504@hinterlands.org>
References: <49071DDA.6050504@hinterlands.org>
Message-ID: <490720EF.9070406@gmail.com>

Martin A. Brooks wrote:
> LPI-UK subscribed my personal email address to their UK "alumni" list 
> and have used it to send UCE.
> 
> I'm wondering if any other GLLUG members also got this message.  I'm 
> currently awaiting a reply with an explanation as to how they got hold 
> of my address.

I did, but not to this address.
The address I received it at, as far as I can recall, is only known to 
UKUUG's announce list so far as usergroups go.

-- 
Avi Greenbury :) http://aviswebsite.co.uk

From itsbruce at workshy.org  Tue Oct 28 15:28:00 2008
From: itsbruce at workshy.org (Bruce Richardson)
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 15:28:00 +0000
Subject: [Gllug] [ot] unsolicited mail from LPI-UK
In-Reply-To: <49071DDA.6050504@hinterlands.org>
References: <49071DDA.6050504@hinterlands.org>
Message-ID: <20081028152800.GB23204@phaistos.bruce>

On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 02:12:42PM +0000, Martin wrote:
> 
> LPI-UK subscribed my personal email address to their UK "alumni" list 
> and have used it to send UCE.
> 
> I'm wondering if any other GLLUG members also got this message.  I'm 
> currently awaiting a reply with an explanation as to how they got hold 
> of my address.

Well, I did but then I took several of their exams, so I'm hardly
surprised by this.  They used an old address which would have been
current when I signed up.

LPI were offering free LPIC-1 tests at one of the London expos, about 7
years ago.  Did you sit one of those?

-- 
Bruce

It is impolite to tell a man who is carrying you on his shoulders that
his head smells.

From ziya at suzen.net  Tue Oct 28 15:33:25 2008
From: ziya at suzen.net (Ziya Suzen)
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 15:33:25 +0000
Subject: [Gllug] Disconnected ssh sessions and pseudo-terminals
In-Reply-To: <bb684e540810280433w3ac55cb3t11f637b0f673ce31@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7e7471f80810280359l3b8368f5l7763795555a8a5d@mail.gmail.com>
	<bb684e540810280433w3ac55cb3t11f637b0f673ce31@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7e7471f80810280833m18c4defdu70210e66d9cf740b@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 11:33 AM, Pancro <pancro at gmail.com> wrote:
> Screen is not useful after the processes you want to "protect" have
> started in the terminal.

Just tried it now. It rocks!

>
> The commands I use the most are:
>
> "screen" (obviously) to start a new session
> "screen -dr" to attach to a running session (detaching it from
> somewhere else if needed)
> Ctrl-a followed by A to give a name to the window
> Ctrl-a followed by d to detach the session and keep my processes running
> Ctrl-a followed by c to create a new window within the current screen session
> Ctrl-a followed by p to move to the previous window in the screen session
> Ctrl-a followed by n to move to the next window in the screen session
> Ctrl-a followed by a to send ^A to the process (e.g. go to the
> beginning of the line in many cases)
>

Thank you. Very useful.

-z

From ziya at suzen.net  Tue Oct 28 16:28:45 2008
From: ziya at suzen.net (Ziya Suzen)
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 16:28:45 +0000
Subject: [Gllug] Disconnected ssh sessions and pseudo-terminals
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.0810281323330.23800@gilmore.trap.me.uk>
References: <7e7471f80810280359l3b8368f5l7763795555a8a5d@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.0810281323330.23800@gilmore.trap.me.uk>
Message-ID: <7e7471f80810280928xb54b167h7a9d162e0ff6476d@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 1:31 PM,  <damion.yates at gmail.com> wrote:
[...]
> for weeks without issue with mine.  You could change ISPs.  Or perhaps a

At work we are using plus.net (I think they are BT now, not sure) and it's
probably not the best. At home I have Zen and I rarely see connections
dropping. (Just saying...)

> VPN to your shell account can retain an virtual interface and IP despite
> crumbling underlying connections?

That would be nice (extra nice with a stateless udp one as Alain mentioned).
Do you know any straight forward to use VPN utilities? I did look into IPSec
once but looked awfully complicated. So I am stuck with SSH and stunnel
for my VPN needs.

> If it's vim* sending a kill -1 (SIGHUP) should get it to close reasonably
> cleanly.  You should also be able to vi it and see the state of the file
> via its swap file.  You're faced with multiple options:
>
> Found a swap file by the name ".example.txt.swp"
>          owned by: damion   dated: Tue Oct 28 13:26:22 2008
>         file name: ~damion/example.txt
>          modified: no
>         user name: damion   host name: aa.secret.domain.com
>        process ID: 10985 (still running)
> While opening file "example.txt"
>
> Swap file ".example.txt.swp" already exists!
> [O]pen Read-Only, (E)dit anyway, (R)ecover, (Q)uit, (A)bort:

This is what I have been doing actually...

>
> *Or even if it's not, most vi versions deal well with a hangup signal,
> old SunOS boxes I used in the past would email me the file in that
> situation :)

Good old days :)

>
>> And hopelessly tried 'screen' to get to the orphan terminal :(
>
> I love screen and use it all the time.  I would rate it as the best
> application I have ever used in the world ever!
>

Admittedly I didn't know about it before but now I feel like
a kid just got a nice new toy as a present. :)

-z

From addw at phcomp.co.uk  Tue Oct 28 16:33:28 2008
From: addw at phcomp.co.uk (Alain Williams)
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 16:33:28 +0000
Subject: [Gllug] Disconnected ssh sessions and pseudo-terminals
In-Reply-To: <7e7471f80810280928xb54b167h7a9d162e0ff6476d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7e7471f80810280359l3b8368f5l7763795555a8a5d@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.0810281323330.23800@gilmore.trap.me.uk>
	<7e7471f80810280928xb54b167h7a9d162e0ff6476d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20081028163328.GN5044@mint.phcomp.co.uk>

On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 04:28:45PM +0000, Ziya Suzen wrote:

> That would be nice (extra nice with a stateless udp one as Alain mentioned).
> Do you know any straight forward to use VPN utilities? I did look into IPSec
> once but looked awfully complicated. So I am stuck with SSH and stunnel
> for my VPN needs.

I use openvpn, works well. Need something installed at each end.

-- 
Alain Williams
Linux/GNU Consultant - Mail systems, Web sites, Networking, Programmer, IT Lecturer.
+44 (0) 787 668 0256  http://www.phcomp.co.uk/
Parliament Hill Computers Ltd. Registration Information: http://www.phcomp.co.uk/contact.php
Past chairman of UKUUG: http://www.ukuug.org/
#include <std_disclaimer.h>

From hearnsj at googlemail.com  Tue Oct 28 16:43:56 2008
From: hearnsj at googlemail.com (John Hearns)
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 16:43:56 +0000
Subject: [Gllug] ADSL providers
Message-ID: <9f8092cc0810280943k647ca924r44a0b0bf63735da@mail.gmail.com>

Thinking about ADSL providers, there are adverts from BT Business Broadband
offering a free mobile broadband connection when you start a new
subscription
with them. Does anyone know of a domestic equivalent?
-------------- next part --------------
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From martin at hinterlands.org  Tue Oct 28 17:17:37 2008
From: martin at hinterlands.org (Martin A. Brooks)
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 17:17:37 +0000
Subject: [Gllug] [ot] unsolicited mail from LPI-UK
In-Reply-To: <20081028152800.GB23204@phaistos.bruce>
References: <49071DDA.6050504@hinterlands.org>
	<20081028152800.GB23204@phaistos.bruce>
Message-ID: <49074931.2030109@hinterlands.org>

Bruce Richardson wrote:
> LPI were offering free LPIC-1 tests at one of the London expos, about 7
> years ago.  Did you sit one of those?

To the very best of my knowledge, no.  I've always been ambivalent about 
such accreditation.

Emails offlist suggest that I'm not the only person who's been contacted 
by them.

I expect it's an honest mistake, but subscribing a whole bunch of geeks 
to a mailing list, ones with whom you've had no contact for about 7 
years at best, without explicitly gaining permission, suggests they 
didn't think it through.




From jason at ukfsn.org  Tue Oct 28 17:22:06 2008
From: jason at ukfsn.org (Jason Clifford)
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 17:22:06 +0000
Subject: [Gllug] ADSL providers
In-Reply-To: <9f8092cc0810280943k647ca924r44a0b0bf63735da@mail.gmail.com>
References: <9f8092cc0810280943k647ca924r44a0b0bf63735da@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1225214526.11458.59.camel@JasonPC>

On Tue, 2008-10-28 at 16:43 +0000, John Hearns wrote:
> Thinking about ADSL providers, there are adverts from BT Business
> Broadband offering a free mobile broadband connection when you start a
> new subscription with them. Does anyone know of a domestic equivalent?

Don't forget that BT are apparently running their phorm trials again. If
you prefer not to have your browsing habits snooped on and sold to a US
advertising company you may prefer any other supplier (other than
TalkTalk and Virgin who were also involved with phorm).

The margins on ADSL are very low. They certainly are not sufficient to
cover such freebies. The usual warnings about quality, price, etc apply.


From cehunter at gb-x.org  Tue Oct 28 17:57:47 2008
From: cehunter at gb-x.org (Christopher Hunter)
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 17:57:47 +0000
Subject: [Gllug] ADSL providers
In-Reply-To: <9f8092cc0810280943k647ca924r44a0b0bf63735da@mail.gmail.com>
References: <9f8092cc0810280943k647ca924r44a0b0bf63735da@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1225216667.4536.72.camel@desktop.config>

On Tue, 2008-10-28 at 16:43 +0000, John Hearns wrote:
> Thinking about ADSL providers, there are adverts from BT Business
> Broadband
> offering a free mobile broadband connection when you start a new
> subscription
> with them. Does anyone know of a domestic equivalent?

There doesn't appear to be one.  You really should avoid BT Broadband as
they are selling all the details of their client's browsing habits to
"Phorm" (or whatever they're called this week):

http://badphorm.co.uk/page.php?2

Chris


From robert at mckay.com  Tue Oct 28 22:33:59 2008
From: robert at mckay.com (Robert McKay)
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 22:33:59 +0000
Subject: [Gllug] Disconnected ssh sessions and pseudo-terminals
In-Reply-To: <7e7471f80810280359l3b8368f5l7763795555a8a5d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7e7471f80810280359l3b8368f5l7763795555a8a5d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c2888f8c0810281533h4984c9b0hb4fa112c9562733d@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 10:59 AM, Ziya Suzen <ziya at suzen.net> wrote:
> I have tried a few tricks without any luck:
>
> Exit the Editor:
>  # echo -n ^[ >> /dev/pts/1
>  # echo -n :x >> /dev/pts/1

This isn't going to be a practical answer. :-)

You've got the right idea. Unfortunately you can't write into
/dev/pts/1 - that would send your characters back towards the pty
(your defunct sshd will see them not your vi). You need to write into
the pty associated with the /dev/pts/1 device in order for vi to see
them.

This would have been easier to do back in the old days when everyone
used the old style /dev/ttypX and each had it's own corresponding
/dev/ptypX device.

Unfortunately most Linux distros now use a new tty scheme based around
a multiplexer device and the 'other end' of /dev/pts/1 is now
/dev/ptmx which is the same endpoint for all the other ttys as well.

The main advantage of this new scheme is that it makes writing tty
allocation code far easier. Before you'd have to loop over all the
ttypXX devices in /dev/ until you found a free one. Now you just do
some magic ioctls on /dev/ptmx and the kernel hands you an available
one. The downside is it makes nasty hacks like this slightly nastier.

I think I'm right in saying there is no way to re-open /dev/ptmx and
get connected to the same front side tty (at least not without
recycling that tty which would mean killing any programs attached to
that session -- this is actually an option as well though - you could
fork() the vi process and connect the fork to a new session on a new
tty and kill -9 the old one leaving you with almost the same effect
but I digress).

You can still do exactly what you propose by jacking the open
filehandle of the (hopefully) still running sshd process (if the sshd
isn't still running I think I'm right in saying your vi will be dead
anyway as it should have received a sigterm when the sshd lost it's
filehandle to the pty).

You can get access to this filehandle using gdb (or write your own
thing to call ptrace).

Basically you need to figure out which file descriptor sshd has open
to /dev/ptmx - you can get this by looking in /dev/<pidofsshd>/fd. It
should look something like this:

total 0
lrwx------ 1 root root 64 2008-10-28 21:48 0 -> /dev/null
lrwx------ 1 root root 64 2008-10-28 21:48 1 -> /dev/null
lrwx------ 1 root root 64 2008-10-28 21:48 10 -> /dev/ptmx
lrwx------ 1 root root 64 2008-10-28 21:48 2 -> /dev/null
lrwx------ 1 root root 64 2008-10-28 21:48 3 -> socket:[3530852]
lrwx------ 1 root root 64 2008-10-28 21:48 4 -> socket:[3530966]
lrwx------ 1 root root 64 2008-10-28 21:48 5 -> socket:[3530970]
lr-x------ 1 root root 64 2008-10-28 21:48 6 -> pipe:[3530971]
l-wx------ 1 root root 64 2008-10-28 21:48 7 -> pipe:[3530971]
lrwx------ 1 root root 64 2008-10-28 21:48 8 -> /dev/ptmx
lrwx------ 1 root root 64 2008-10-28 21:48 9 -> /dev/ptmx

As you can see there are three fd's connected to /dev/ptmx.

Then you attach to the sshd process with gdb and poke stuff into the
file descriptor by doing something like:

call malloc(1024)
call strcpy($1, ":q!\n")
call write(<fd>, $1, 4)

(just tried exactly this and it actually worked -- you need to attach
to the sshd proces that is owned by your user - not the root owned
one).

root      2877  0.0  0.2   7880  2404 ?        Ss   21:47   0:00 sshd:
rm [priv]
rm        2998  0.0  0.1   7880  1508 ?        S    21:47   0:00 sshd: rm at pts/9

(so attach to 2998)

(gdb) call malloc(1024)
$1 = -2147044680
(gdb) call strcpy($1, ":q!\n")
$2 = -2147044680
(gdb) call write(10, $1, 4)
$3 = 4

in this example there are three filehandles to ptmx presumably one for
each of the stdin/stdout/stderr ssh channels. It doesn't seem to
matter which one you use. I used 10.. I guess which ever one you use
needs to have been opened for writing though so maybe 8 (stdin)
wouldn't have worked.

Another option you could try is to exec() some other program like cat
and then dup2() the ptmx file descriptor to stdout or maybe get real
fancy and exec() something that would let you read and write at the
same time. You could use nc for that actually.. just exec it so that
it connects to somewhere, and then dup2() the tty fd over the network
socket.

I've previously toyed around with a few similar ideas and eventually
came up with this script:

http://wari.mckay.com/~rm/hijack.sh.txt

which allows you to migrate an already running program from one tty to
a new one. It uses the fork() method I mentioned earlier.

Cheers,

Rob.

From peterachilds at gmail.com  Wed Oct 29 04:52:11 2008
From: peterachilds at gmail.com (Peter Childs)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 04:52:11 +0000
Subject: [Gllug] ADSL providers
In-Reply-To: <1225216667.4536.72.camel@desktop.config>
References: <9f8092cc0810280943k647ca924r44a0b0bf63735da@mail.gmail.com>
	<1225216667.4536.72.camel@desktop.config>
Message-ID: <a2de01dd0810282152l54b8c6e8veea5665eea796706@mail.gmail.com>

2008/10/28 Christopher Hunter <cehunter at gb-x.org>:
> On Tue, 2008-10-28 at 16:43 +0000, John Hearns wrote:
>> Thinking about ADSL providers, there are adverts from BT Business
>> Broadband
>> offering a free mobile broadband connection when you start a new
>> subscription
>> with them. Does anyone know of a domestic equivalent?
>
> There doesn't appear to be one.  You really should avoid BT Broadband as
> they are selling all the details of their client's browsing habits to
> "Phorm" (or whatever they're called this week):
>
> http://badphorm.co.uk/page.php?2
>
> Chris
>
> --
> Gllug mailing list  -  Gllug at gllug.org.uk
> http://lists.gllug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/gllug
>

We have BT Broadband at work and it is useless, We are currently
thinking about moving. (Had it nearly 10 years...)

Its 13 Hops before you even leave BT Total Broadband Routers... we get
about 4Mb on our 8Mb ADSL connection but the 13 Hops makes webpages
look a bit silly. (Large Files are just about Ok but small ones think
again) (This is SE1)

Does anyone have recommendations for reasonable Business Broadband,
possibly SDSL, ADSL2 or Fiber (We have been looking at BeThere)

Peter.

From cehunter at gb-x.org  Wed Oct 29 07:57:14 2008
From: cehunter at gb-x.org (Christopher Hunter)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 07:57:14 +0000
Subject: [Gllug] ADSL providers
In-Reply-To: <a2de01dd0810282152l54b8c6e8veea5665eea796706@mail.gmail.com>
References: <9f8092cc0810280943k647ca924r44a0b0bf63735da@mail.gmail.com>
	<1225216667.4536.72.camel@desktop.config>
	<a2de01dd0810282152l54b8c6e8veea5665eea796706@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1225267034.4536.90.camel@desktop.config>

On Wed, 2008-10-29 at 04:52 +0000, Peter Childs wrote:

> Does anyone have recommendations for reasonable Business Broadband,
> possibly SDSL, ADSL2 or Fiber (We have been looking at BeThere)

I'm using BeThere here (domestically) and it completely outperforms
Virgin Media's bogus "fibre" nonsense.  I live in an area that is
shadowed (behind a big hill) from Crystal Palace, and in the days of
Cable Camden (later, Cable London) we had almost 100% of households
connected to the cable.  Since "Virgin on the Ridiculous" took over,
that's dropped to (roughly) 15%.  I left VM about three months ago - I'd
had enough.

VM is truly appalling.  Their "20 Mb/s" service is actually 5 Mb/s with
the occasional burst to 20 Mb/s - their capping means that restrictions
kick in after just four or five minutes of downloading, and then last
effectively for the rest of the day.  Their "unlimited" service is
nothing of the sort!  There are many frequent service interruptions,
many DNS problems, and they (usually) refuse to acknowledge that any
fault actually exists.  Their cable TV service is generally bad - and
again they refuse to admit to network capacity problems.  For example,
their "on demand" TV services have never worked around here.  VM now
have a small-print caveat in all their advertising: "subject to network
capacity"...

BeThere already have an agreement to use the BT "Fibre to the Home" as
it is installed.  Luckily, I live in one of the test areas, and will
have FTTH installed early next year...

Chris



From john at sinodun.org.uk  Wed Oct 29 08:01:16 2008
From: john at sinodun.org.uk (John Winters)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 08:01:16 +0000
Subject: [Gllug] ADSL providers
In-Reply-To: <1225267034.4536.90.camel@desktop.config>
References: <9f8092cc0810280943k647ca924r44a0b0bf63735da@mail.gmail.com>	<1225216667.4536.72.camel@desktop.config>	<a2de01dd0810282152l54b8c6e8veea5665eea796706@mail.gmail.com>
	<1225267034.4536.90.camel@desktop.config>
Message-ID: <4908184C.4010708@sinodun.org.uk>

Christopher Hunter wrote:
> VM is truly appalling.
[snip tale of woe]

So, no change from the days when they were called NTL then?  :-)

Don't get me started on the mind-boggling incompetence of NTL.

John


From peterachilds at gmail.com  Wed Oct 29 08:09:20 2008
From: peterachilds at gmail.com (Peter Childs)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 08:09:20 +0000
Subject: [Gllug] ADSL providers
In-Reply-To: <1225267034.4536.90.camel@desktop.config>
References: <9f8092cc0810280943k647ca924r44a0b0bf63735da@mail.gmail.com>
	<1225216667.4536.72.camel@desktop.config>
	<a2de01dd0810282152l54b8c6e8veea5665eea796706@mail.gmail.com>
	<1225267034.4536.90.camel@desktop.config>
Message-ID: <a2de01dd0810290109t606da3d8j4ade4cce446fec03@mail.gmail.com>

2008/10/29 Christopher Hunter <cehunter at gb-x.org>:
> On Wed, 2008-10-29 at 04:52 +0000, Peter Childs wrote:
>
>> Does anyone have recommendations for reasonable Business Broadband,
>> possibly SDSL, ADSL2 or Fiber (We have been looking at BeThere)
>
> I'm using BeThere here (domestically) and it completely outperforms
> Virgin Media's bogus "fibre" nonsense.  I live in an area that is
> shadowed (behind a big hill) from Crystal Palace, and in the days of
> Cable Camden (later, Cable London) we had almost 100% of households
> connected to the cable.  Since "Virgin on the Ridiculous" took over,
> that's dropped to (roughly) 15%.  I left VM about three months ago - I'd
> had enough.
>
> VM is truly appalling.  Their "20 Mb/s" service is actually 5 Mb/s with
> the occasional burst to 20 Mb/s - their capping means that restrictions
> kick in after just four or five minutes of downloading, and then last
> effectively for the rest of the day.  Their "unlimited" service is
> nothing of the sort!  There are many frequent service interruptions,
> many DNS problems, and they (usually) refuse to acknowledge that any
> fault actually exists.  Their cable TV service is generally bad - and
> again they refuse to admit to network capacity problems.  For example,
> their "on demand" TV services have never worked around here.  VM now
> have a small-print caveat in all their advertising: "subject to network
> capacity"...
>
> BeThere already have an agreement to use the BT "Fibre to the Home" as
> it is installed.  Luckily, I live in one of the test areas, and will
> have FTTH installed early next year...
>
> Chris
>
>
> --
> Gllug mailing list  -  Gllug at gllug.org.uk
> http://lists.gllug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/gllug
>

I'd always been quite impressed with Cable, Got Virgin 10Mb service at
home (Just upgraded from the 2Mb) and it mostly actually does get
that, Its runs circles round the apparent 8Mb service at work. Even
the 2Mb service ran circles round our office 8Mb! However virgin are
not cheap to businesses.

What always irritates me is how business services are hidden and you
nearly always need to talk to a sales person and usually cost a lot
more than the equivalent home offering (which is usually identical)

Peter Childs

From lesleyb at pgcroft.net  Tue Oct 28 12:05:51 2008
From: lesleyb at pgcroft.net (Lesley Binks)
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 12:05:51 +0000
Subject: [Gllug] Disconnected ssh sessions and pseudo-terminals
In-Reply-To: <bb684e540810280433w3ac55cb3t11f637b0f673ce31@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7e7471f80810280359l3b8368f5l7763795555a8a5d@mail.gmail.com>
	<bb684e540810280433w3ac55cb3t11f637b0f673ce31@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20081028120551.GA6457@pgcroft.net>

On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 11:33:08AM +0000, Pancro wrote:
> > And hopelessly tried 'screen' to get to the orphan terminal :(
> >
> > Any ideas?
> 
> Screen is not useful after the processes you want to "protect" have
> started in the terminal.
> 
> If you start screen as soon as you ssh into your host and run your
> processes from there, you will be able to reattach to the session
> without problems. I do it routinely at work to have my mutt and irssi
> sessions always on an internal server and then I attach to my email
> and IRC from wherever I am, from home, from my laptop, when
> travelling, etc.
> 
> The commands I use the most are:
> 
> "screen" (obviously) to start a new session
> "screen -dr" to attach to a running session (detaching it from
> somewhere else if needed)
I usually use 'screen -rAaD <screen PID>'
'screen -ls' will list the screens you have running and the number at
the front of the response is the screen PID.

The handy thing is - once having issued the recovery command once for a
screen, if/when I lose the connection, all I have to type is '!scre'.
This exploits the history command and executes 'screen -raAD ..' for me.

> Ctrl-a followed by A to give a name to the window
> Ctrl-a followed by d to detach the session and keep my processes running
> Ctrl-a followed by c to create a new window within the current screen session
> Ctrl-a followed by p to move to the previous window in the screen session
> Ctrl-a followed by n to move to the next window in the screen session
> Ctrl-a followed by a to send ^A to the process (e.g. go to the
> beginning of the line in many cases)
Ctrl-a Ctrl-a will take you to the previously visited window or shell rather than
cycling through all of them to get to a specific one.  Typically I might
have a number of shells open and work between two at a time, needing the
third or fourth occasionally.

When you have a number of shells opened within a screen they tend to be
ordered and you can use Ctrl-a 0 to go to the first shell you opened,
Ctrl-a 1 to go to the second and so on. 

If you close a shell within a screen, say you have four open and close
shell 3 then the next shell created will take up that empty slot and
become shell 3.

I ssh in, and either reconnect my screen or raise a new one.  I then
raise new shells within that screen - typically one to show top, one for mutt and
any number thereafter for any work I am doing.

I am sshing in off a windoze box atm and find that if I leave the thing
running and showing top the ssh session stays open longer.  So if I need
to do something else I simply leave the top shell displaying.  I thank
<insert suitable deities here> for putty.

If you want to close the whole screen session down you have to exit each
shell you have started.
> 
> I'm a fairly basic screen user and the commands above do all I need,
> many more are available and documented in the usual places.
ditto :)

Regards

Lesley

From lesleyb at pgcroft.net  Tue Oct 28 12:44:22 2008
From: lesleyb at pgcroft.net (Lesley Binks)
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 12:44:22 +0000
Subject: [Gllug] Disconnected ssh sessions and pseudo-terminals
In-Reply-To: <4906F572.6050207@lgeezer.net>
References: <7e7471f80810280359l3b8368f5l7763795555a8a5d@mail.gmail.com>
	<4906F572.6050207@lgeezer.net>
Message-ID: <20081028124422.GB6457@pgcroft.net>

On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 11:20:18AM +0000, Alistair Mann wrote:
> Ziya Suzen wrote:
> > Hi there
> > 
> > Sometimes I hate my ADSL provider. Connections keep dropping
> > and I loose my SSH connections. What I usually do is to ignore
> > them and open new SSH sessions. However it gets annoying
> > when you have an editor already opened on a file, you 'ps' it
> > and see it opened there, but you can't exit the editor (vi) or take
> > control of the now not-used pts.
> > 
> > I have tried a few tricks without any luck:
> > 
> > Exit the Editor:
> >  # echo -n ^[ >> /dev/pts/1
> >  # echo -n :x >> /dev/pts/1
> > 
> > (Note:key combination typed for escape: ctrl+v, Esc)
> > 
> > And hopelessly tried 'screen' to get to the orphan terminal :(
> > 
> > Any ideas?
> 
> Vi will gracefully terminate if you send it a signal:
> 
> $ kill -SIGHUP <process id>
> 
> Graceful includes preserving whatever's in the editor but unsaved.
> 
> That help?

'vi -r <filename>' will help recover any edits after a termination.
The trick is to write out what you recover to a temporary file and then
diff against your existing file to see if there are any differences.
Remember to delete the .swp file once you have recovered.

vi and vim write changes out to a swap file which is of the form
.<filename>.swp .  You can see this file with an 'ls -a'.  If one
already exists for the file you want to edit the .swo extension will be
used instead and you will get a warning that the file is already open.

Regards

Lesley

From lesleyb at pgcroft.net  Tue Oct 28 16:19:38 2008
From: lesleyb at pgcroft.net (Lesley Binks)
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 16:19:38 +0000
Subject: [Gllug] [ot] unsolicited mail from LPI-UK
In-Reply-To: <20081028152800.GB23204@phaistos.bruce>
References: <49071DDA.6050504@hinterlands.org>
	<20081028152800.GB23204@phaistos.bruce>
Message-ID: <20081028161935.GC6457@pgcroft.net>

On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 03:28:00PM +0000, Bruce Richardson wrote:
> On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 02:12:42PM +0000, Martin wrote:
> > 
> > LPI-UK subscribed my personal email address to their UK "alumni" list 
> > and have used it to send UCE.
> > 
> > I'm wondering if any other GLLUG members also got this message.  I'm 
> > currently awaiting a reply with an explanation as to how they got hold 
> > of my address.
> 
> Well, I did but then I took several of their exams, so I'm hardly
> surprised by this.  They used an old address which would have been
> current when I signed up.
> 
> LPI were offering free LPIC-1 tests at one of the London expos, about 7
> years ago.  Did you sit one of those?
> 
Well they certainly weren't there this year.

Has anyone drawn any benefit from the LPI certification scheme?  If so,
how did it help you?

Regards

Lesley

From marcus at fatbeehive.com  Wed Oct 29 10:23:54 2008
From: marcus at fatbeehive.com (Marcus Taylor)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 10:23:54 +0000
Subject: [Gllug] ADSL providers
In-Reply-To: <a2de01dd0810282152l54b8c6e8veea5665eea796706@mail.gmail.com>
References: <9f8092cc0810280943k647ca924r44a0b0bf63735da@mail.gmail.com>	<1225216667.4536.72.camel@desktop.config>
	<a2de01dd0810282152l54b8c6e8veea5665eea796706@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <490839BA.7070801@fatbeehive.com>

Peter Childs wrote:
 > 2008/10/28 Christopher Hunter <cehunter at gb-x.org>:
 >> On Tue, 2008-10-28 at 16:43 +0000, John Hearns wrote:

 > Does anyone have recommendations for reasonable Business Broadband,
 > possibly SDSL, ADSL2 or Fiber (We have been looking at BeThere)
 >
 > Peter.

I can recommend Be - we have it at work and home - pretty flawless, 
ADSL2 seems solid. I get around 1.6M at work and 1.3M at home [flats :/]

They also support FastPath of you want more responsive ping times.

I would steer clear of their DNS servers [as with most ISP] sometimes slow.

I have never even suspected they thottle and certainly no limits - and 
most of their tech support seems to know at least at much as me :)

Although having said that this week I have been unable to connect to a 
torrent tracker - looking at the Be support thread it's being bounced 
between them and a tier provider. Just goes to show you are not actually 
ever dealing with _one_ company when it comes down to it - IMO the less 
you have to deal with BT the better.

Cheers

-- 
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
|     Marcus Taylor     |                            Tel: 0207 7398704 |
+-----------------------+                 Email: marcus at fatbeehive.com |
| Systems Administrator |               Web: http://www.fatbeehive.com |
|    Fat Beehive Ltd    | 2nd Floor, 59 Rivington St, London, EC2a 3QQ |
+-----------------------+----------------------------------------------+

From itsbruce at workshy.org  Wed Oct 29 10:25:43 2008
From: itsbruce at workshy.org (Bruce Richardson)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 10:25:43 +0000
Subject: [Gllug] [ot] unsolicited mail from LPI-UK
In-Reply-To: <20081028161935.GC6457@pgcroft.net>
References: <49071DDA.6050504@hinterlands.org>
	<20081028152800.GB23204@phaistos.bruce>
	<20081028161935.GC6457@pgcroft.net>
Message-ID: <20081029102543.GA26356@phaistos.bruce>

On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 04:19:38PM +0000, Lesley wrote:
> Well they certainly weren't there this year.
> 
> Has anyone drawn any benefit from the LPI certification scheme?  If so,
> how did it help you?

For me, it was about validating to myself what I know.  I wish more
people did something like that; I've interviewed a large number of
candidates for sysadmin-type positions over the years and a depressing
proportion of them knew far less about Linux and Unix than they
should and were unaware of how little they knew.  Never having properly
tested their knowledge and skills, their opinion of their own skills was
usually inflated and the mismatch between their self-assessment and
reality all the more stark (which made them look worse than people with
the same skill level but better self-knowledge).

The LPIC exams are not expensive and are reasonably well constructed
(although some of the question setters should have their hands slapped
for poor style and gratuitous usage of cat).  I think anyone with no
formal qualifications in the area would often benefit from testing
their skills.

As for using the certifications, I've been wary of mentioning them
in job applications because I'm aware of the irrational prejudices
against Linux certifications that are out there.  On the other hand,
larger and more traditional employers tend to rate certifications as
proof of effort and ambintion, so I do think it works for them.  If
you're looking for contract work, definitely cite them: every tick box
helps.

-- 
Bruce

I unfortunately do not know how to turn cheese into gold.
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From hpsekhon at googlemail.com  Wed Oct 29 10:39:24 2008
From: hpsekhon at googlemail.com (Hari Sekhon)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 10:39:24 +0000
Subject: [Gllug] [ot] unsolicited mail from LPI-UK
In-Reply-To: <20081029102543.GA26356@phaistos.bruce>
References: <49071DDA.6050504@hinterlands.org>	<20081028152800.GB23204@phaistos.bruce>	<20081028161935.GC6457@pgcroft.net>
	<20081029102543.GA26356@phaistos.bruce>
Message-ID: <49083D5C.8090609@googlemail.com>

Bruce Richardson wrote:
> On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 04:19:38PM +0000, Lesley wrote:
>   
>> Well they certainly weren't there this year.
>>
>> Has anyone drawn any benefit from the LPI certification scheme?  If so,
>> how did it help you?
>>     
>
> For me, it was about validating to myself what I know.  I wish more
> people did something like that; I've interviewed a large number of
> candidates for sysadmin-type positions over the years and a depressing
> proportion of them knew far less about Linux and Unix than they
> should and were unaware of how little they knew.  Never having properly
> tested their knowledge and skills, their opinion of their own skills was
> usually inflated and the mismatch between their self-assessment and
> reality all the more stark (which made them look worse than people with
> the same skill level but better self-knowledge).
>
> The LPIC exams are not expensive and are reasonably well constructed
> (although some of the question setters should have their hands slapped
> for poor style and gratuitous usage of cat).  I think anyone with no
> formal qualifications in the area would often benefit from testing
> their skills.
>
> As for using the certifications, I've been wary of mentioning them
> in job applications because I'm aware of the irrational prejudices
> against Linux certifications that are out there.  On the other hand,
> larger and more traditional employers tend to rate certifications as
> proof of effort and ambintion, so I do think it works for them.  If
> you're looking for contract work, definitely cite them: every tick box
> helps.
>   
I concur with what you've said here, it's better to have them than not 
have them.
I sympathize with your recruiting problem, I've noticed the same when 
recruiting.

Could you elaborate on the irrational prejudices against Linux 
certifications out there?
I think companies that don't respect skills, qualifications and training 
are doing everybody a dis-service including themselves.

-h

-- 
Hari Sekhon
Always open to interesting opportunities
http://www.linkedin.com/in/harisekhon


From lesleyb at herlug.org.uk  Wed Oct 29 10:48:34 2008
From: lesleyb at herlug.org.uk (lesleyb at herlug.org.uk)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 10:48:34 +0000
Subject: [Gllug] ADSL providers
In-Reply-To: <1225267034.4536.90.camel@desktop.config>
References: <9f8092cc0810280943k647ca924r44a0b0bf63735da@mail.gmail.com>
	<1225216667.4536.72.camel@desktop.config>
	<a2de01dd0810282152l54b8c6e8veea5665eea796706@mail.gmail.com>
	<1225267034.4536.90.camel@desktop.config>
Message-ID: <20081029104834.GA9747@pgcroft.net>

On Wed, Oct 29, 2008 at 07:57:14AM +0000, Christopher Hunter wrote:
> On Wed, 2008-10-29 at 04:52 +0000, Peter Childs wrote:
> 
> > Does anyone have recommendations for reasonable Business Broadband,
> > possibly SDSL, ADSL2 or Fiber (We have been looking at BeThere)
> 
> I'm using BeThere here (domestically) and it completely outperforms
> Virgin Media's bogus "fibre" nonsense.  I live in an area that is
> shadowed (behind a big hill) from Crystal Palace, and in the days of
> Cable Camden (later, Cable London) we had almost 100% of households
> connected to the cable.  Since "Virgin on the Ridiculous" took over,
> that's dropped to (roughly) 15%.  I left VM about three months ago - I'd
> had enough.
<snip>
I've wondered what BeThere is like.  I'm rooming with family at the
moment (homelss and jobless) so limited to their choice and we have 
recently discovered they are tied into BT until some time next year.

I have used NTHell, demon and then Zen.  I used dialup for the former
two and then went on to broadband with Zen because they do a one month
rolling contract with a two week termination notice requirement.

Never had any problems with Zen and support were always helpful when I
required them. I was with them for about 5 years or so with no problems
changing address etc.
 
Have a sister on VM and she says it is okay but she isn't exactly on 
t'Internet all day.


Regards

L.

From abuse at cabal.org.uk  Wed Oct 29 11:19:48 2008
From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 11:19:48 +0000
Subject: [Gllug] ADSL providers
In-Reply-To: <a2de01dd0810282152l54b8c6e8veea5665eea796706@mail.gmail.com>
References: <9f8092cc0810280943k647ca924r44a0b0bf63735da@mail.gmail.com>
	<1225216667.4536.72.camel@desktop.config>
	<a2de01dd0810282152l54b8c6e8veea5665eea796706@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20081029111947.GA15531@cabal.org.uk>

On Wed, Oct 29, 2008 at 04:52:11AM +0000, Peter Childs wrote:
[...]
> Does anyone have recommendations for reasonable Business Broadband,
> possibly SDSL, ADSL2 or Fiber (We have been looking at BeThere)

WebTapestry is disgustingly cheap given how excellent the service is.


From cehunter at gb-x.org  Wed Oct 29 11:33:29 2008
From: cehunter at gb-x.org (Christopher Hunter)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 11:33:29 +0000
Subject: [Gllug] ADSL providers
In-Reply-To: <a2de01dd0810290109t606da3d8j4ade4cce446fec03@mail.gmail.com>
References: <9f8092cc0810280943k647ca924r44a0b0bf63735da@mail.gmail.com>
	<1225216667.4536.72.camel@desktop.config>
	<a2de01dd0810282152l54b8c6e8veea5665eea796706@mail.gmail.com>
	<1225267034.4536.90.camel@desktop.config>
	<a2de01dd0810290109t606da3d8j4ade4cce446fec03@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1225280009.4536.106.camel@desktop.config>

On Wed, 2008-10-29 at 08:09 +0000, Peter Childs wrote:

> I'd always been quite impressed with Cable, Got Virgin 10Mb service at
> home (Just upgraded from the 2Mb) and it mostly actually does get
> that,

Just try downloading a distro CD ISO - you'll find that you get speed
capped when you're about three-quarters done, and the cap will remain in
place until either 9pm or midnight (it varies by area).

>  Its runs circles round the apparent 8Mb service at work. Even
> the 2Mb service ran circles round our office 8Mb! However virgin are
> not cheap to businesses.

I had VM's "20 Mb/s" service.  On a good day, with the wind in the right
direction, and the sky just the right shade of blue, I could get as much
as 12 Mb/s - for a while - NEVER anything approaching 20 Mb/s!  The
reality was that the "service" was mostly around 2 - 4 Mb/s and when the
capping kicked in, that would often fall to < 1 Mb/s.  

VM refused to acknowledge that there was actually any fault, despite
innumerable "engineers" visiting both my home and my office (we got
exactly the same sorts of results at my office in Cambridge).  Their
final tactic was to point to the "subject to network capacity" clause in
their paperwork (which was added long after I'd signed any contract).

VM persistently move their goalposts - first by amending the terms of
their contract (which existing customers didn't get to see) so that they
could change their terms on a whim, then by downgrading and capping
their "services" to the point that they became entirely useless.

> What always irritates me is how business services are hidden and you
> nearly always need to talk to a sales person and usually cost a lot
> more than the equivalent home offering (which is usually identical)

If you want a proper business service, those ISPs who mostly deal with
clueless domestic customers are probably not your best bet!

Chris


From cehunter at gb-x.org  Wed Oct 29 11:37:18 2008
From: cehunter at gb-x.org (Christopher Hunter)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 11:37:18 +0000
Subject: [Gllug] ADSL providers
In-Reply-To: <20081029104834.GA9747@pgcroft.net>
References: <9f8092cc0810280943k647ca924r44a0b0bf63735da@mail.gmail.com>
	<1225216667.4536.72.camel@desktop.config>
	<a2de01dd0810282152l54b8c6e8veea5665eea796706@mail.gmail.com>
	<1225267034.4536.90.camel@desktop.config>
	<20081029104834.GA9747@pgcroft.net>
Message-ID: <1225280238.4536.110.camel@desktop.config>

On Wed, 2008-10-29 at 10:48 +0000, lesleyb at herlug.org.uk wrote:

> I've wondered what BeThere is like. 

Generally OK, though their "support" is a bit variable.  I've had the
occasional issue with their DNS, but they've mostly been OK.  As with
any ADSL service, your proximity to your local telephone exchange will
largely determine the speed available to you.

Sorry to hear about the homelessness and joblessness!

Chris


From peterachilds at gmail.com  Wed Oct 29 13:16:52 2008
From: peterachilds at gmail.com (Peter Childs)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 13:16:52 +0000
Subject: [Gllug] ADSL providers
In-Reply-To: <1225280009.4536.106.camel@desktop.config>
References: <9f8092cc0810280943k647ca924r44a0b0bf63735da@mail.gmail.com>
	<1225216667.4536.72.camel@desktop.config>
	<a2de01dd0810282152l54b8c6e8veea5665eea796706@mail.gmail.com>
	<1225267034.4536.90.camel@desktop.config>
	<a2de01dd0810290109t606da3d8j4ade4cce446fec03@mail.gmail.com>
	<1225280009.4536.106.camel@desktop.config>
Message-ID: <a2de01dd0810290616h7580292chb7f9350dcd236278@mail.gmail.com>

2008/10/29 Christopher Hunter <cehunter at gb-x.org>:

>> What always irritates me is how business services are hidden and you
>> nearly always need to talk to a sales person and usually cost a lot
>> more than the equivalent home offering (which is usually identical)
>
> If you want a proper business service, those ISPs who mostly deal with
> clueless domestic customers are probably not your best bet!

Well who then? and why can't I find them on Google?

All I want it a good Internet connection for about 20 Computers 24x7.

Regards

Peter

From cehunter at gb-x.org  Wed Oct 29 13:38:22 2008
From: cehunter at gb-x.org (Christopher Hunter)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 13:38:22 +0000
Subject: [Gllug] ADSL providers
In-Reply-To: <a2de01dd0810290616h7580292chb7f9350dcd236278@mail.gmail.com>
References: <9f8092cc0810280943k647ca924r44a0b0bf63735da@mail.gmail.com>
	<1225216667.4536.72.camel@desktop.config>
	<a2de01dd0810282152l54b8c6e8veea5665eea796706@mail.gmail.com>
	<1225267034.4536.90.camel@desktop.config>
	<a2de01dd0810290109t606da3d8j4ade4cce446fec03@mail.gmail.com>
	<1225280009.4536.106.camel@desktop.config>
	<a2de01dd0810290616h7580292chb7f9350dcd236278@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1225287502.4536.114.camel@desktop.config>

On Wed, 2008-10-29 at 13:16 +0000, Peter Childs wrote:

> Well who then? and why can't I find them on Google?
> 
> All I want it a good Internet connection for about 20 Computers 24x7.

We have several times that number of machines over about 20 sites in the
UK.  We use Cable and Wireless, and they seem OK.  http://www.cw.com/  I
can't vouch for other business ISP services in this country (we use
France Telecom in France, and they're brilliant!)

Chris


From GLLUG at getaroundtoit.co.uk  Wed Oct 29 13:43:04 2008
From: GLLUG at getaroundtoit.co.uk (David L Neil Mailing list a/c)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 13:43:04 +0000
Subject: [Gllug] ADSL providers
In-Reply-To: <1225280238.4536.110.camel@desktop.config>
References: <9f8092cc0810280943k647ca924r44a0b0bf63735da@mail.gmail.com>	<1225216667.4536.72.camel@desktop.config>	<a2de01dd0810282152l54b8c6e8veea5665eea796706@mail.gmail.com>	<1225267034.4536.90.camel@desktop.config>	<20081029104834.GA9747@pgcroft.net>
	<1225280238.4536.110.camel@desktop.config>
Message-ID: <49086868.2040309@getaroundtoit.co.uk>

Christopher Hunter wrote:
> Generally OK, though their "support" is a bit variable.  I've had the
> occasional issue with their DNS, but they've mostly been OK.  As with
...

I read about OpenDNS (http://www.opendns.com/homenetwork/solutions) and
after running a few informal tests which showed that their servers were
more responsive than my ISP's (the primary I was allocated also seemed
to be the one that was listed as down 'status' most often, too) I locked
a couple of their (European) 'open' DNS addresses into my router and
have never looked back.

Attractive comment: it is FREE!

More 'services' have been added since those days. One which occasionally
rankles is that they will 'hi-jack' a request to a non-resolving
'address' and present a search-list of suggested solutions of their own.
Such brought the house down on Verisign when they tried it. It can
sometimes be useful, but after they 'add to' the URL a simple typo
requires more effort to correct than simply adding a missing letter, or
whatever. YMMV!

Certainly my ISP have raised no objection.

If anyone has more good/bad comment on their service, I'll be interested
to hear...

Regards,
=dn

From jr at stabilys.com  Wed Oct 29 14:01:03 2008
From: jr at stabilys.com (James Roberts)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 14:01:03 +0000
Subject: [Gllug] ADSL providers
In-Reply-To: <a2de01dd0810290616h7580292chb7f9350dcd236278@mail.gmail.com>
References: <9f8092cc0810280943k647ca924r44a0b0bf63735da@mail.gmail.com>	<1225216667.4536.72.camel@desktop.config>	<a2de01dd0810282152l54b8c6e8veea5665eea796706@mail.gmail.com>	<1225267034.4536.90.camel@desktop.config>	<a2de01dd0810290109t606da3d8j4ade4cce446fec03@mail.gmail.com>	<1225280009.4536.106.camel@desktop.config>
	<a2de01dd0810290616h7580292chb7f9350dcd236278@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49086C9F.3080606@stabilys.com>

Peter Childs wrote:
> Well who then? and why can't I find them on Google?
> 
> All I want it a good Internet connection for about 20 Computers 24x7.
> Regards
> Peter

We like Fluidata:

http://www.fluidata.co.uk/

MeJ

From nix at esperi.org.uk  Wed Oct 29 15:06:28 2008
From: nix at esperi.org.uk (Nix)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 15:06:28 +0000
Subject: [Gllug] Disconnected ssh sessions and pseudo-terminals
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.0810281323330.23800@gilmore.trap.me.uk> (damion
	yates's message of "Tue, 28 Oct 2008 13:31:40 +0000 (GMT)")
References: <7e7471f80810280359l3b8368f5l7763795555a8a5d@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.0810281323330.23800@gilmore.trap.me.uk>
Message-ID: <8763nb30gb.fsf@hades.wkstn.nix>

On 28 Oct 2008, damion yates verbalised:

> On Tue, 28 Oct 2008, Ziya Suzen wrote:
>
>> Sometimes I hate my ADSL provider. Connections keep dropping and I
>> loose my SSH connections.
>
> Have you tried looking at ssh keepalive options?  I've had sessions open
> for weeks without issue with mine.  You could change ISPs.  Or perhaps a
> VPN to your shell account can retain an virtual interface and IP despite
> crumbling underlying connections?

Or you could use an ADSL router that supports half-bridged or fully
bridged connections, and manage the firewall (for half bridging) or
firewall and PPP layer (for full bridging) from a Linux box connected to
it.

I guarantee that *that* won't drop your TCP connections merely because
the link went down for a few seconds :)

-- 
`Not even vi uses vi key bindings for its command line.' --- PdS

From cehunter at gb-x.org  Wed Oct 29 15:20:36 2008
From: cehunter at gb-x.org (Christopher Hunter)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 15:20:36 +0000
Subject: [Gllug] ADSL providers
In-Reply-To: <49086868.2040309@getaroundtoit.co.uk>
References: <9f8092cc0810280943k647ca924r44a0b0bf63735da@mail.gmail.com>
	<1225216667.4536.72.camel@desktop.config>
	<a2de01dd0810282152l54b8c6e8veea5665eea796706@mail.gmail.com>
	<1225267034.4536.90.camel@desktop.config>
	<20081029104834.GA9747@pgcroft.net>
	<1225280238.4536.110.camel@desktop.config>
	<49086868.2040309@getaroundtoit.co.uk>
Message-ID: <1225293636.4536.116.camel@desktop.config>

On Wed, 2008-10-29 at 13:43 +0000, David L Neil Mailing list a/c wrote:

> I read about OpenDNS (http://www.opendns.com/homenetwork/solutions) and
> after running a few informal tests which showed that their servers were
> more responsive than my ISP's (the primary I was allocated also seemed
> to be the one that was listed as down 'status' most often, too) I locked
> a couple of their (European) 'open' DNS addresses into my router and
> have never looked back.

I've benn using Open DNS for a while.

> Attractive comment: it is FREE!

Indeed! :-)

C.



From peteste at googlemail.com  Wed Oct 29 16:00:36 2008
From: peteste at googlemail.com (Pete Stean)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 16:00:36 +0000
Subject: [Gllug] ADSL providers
In-Reply-To: <1225293636.4536.116.camel@desktop.config>
References: <9f8092cc0810280943k647ca924r44a0b0bf63735da@mail.gmail.com>
	<1225216667.4536.72.camel@desktop.config>
	<a2de01dd0810282152l54b8c6e8veea5665eea796706@mail.gmail.com>
	<1225267034.4536.90.camel@desktop.config>
	<20081029104834.GA9747@pgcroft.net>
	<1225280238.4536.110.camel@desktop.config>
	<49086868.2040309@getaroundtoit.co.uk>
	<1225293636.4536.116.camel@desktop.config>
Message-ID: <52b44d450810290900w3e4c482cq5a892d67de09c484@mail.gmail.com>

I'd also add the fact that BT throttle p2p traffic. It's only during peak
times (evenings) but annoying none the less - even though I have a
connection that maxes out at 600kbps down, after 6pm torrents for
example won't go above about 100kbps total (and often much less than that),
no matter how many seeders/peers a file has...

Pete

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Check out the blog @ http://thelondoneer.blogspot.com
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From peteste at googlemail.com  Wed Oct 29 16:20:18 2008
From: peteste at googlemail.com (Pete Stean)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 16:20:18 +0000
Subject: [Gllug] ADSL providers
In-Reply-To: <52b44d450810290900w3e4c482cq5a892d67de09c484@mail.gmail.com>
References: <9f8092cc0810280943k647ca924r44a0b0bf63735da@mail.gmail.com>
	<1225216667.4536.72.camel@desktop.config>
	<a2de01dd0810282152l54b8c6e8veea5665eea796706@mail.gmail.com>
	<1225267034.4536.90.camel@desktop.config>
	<20081029104834.GA9747@pgcroft.net>
	<1225280238.4536.110.camel@desktop.config>
	<49086868.2040309@getaroundtoit.co.uk>
	<1225293636.4536.116.camel@desktop.config>
	<52b44d450810290900w3e4c482cq5a892d67de09c484@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <52b44d450810290920s6fbdc51fs31d328c587f2a097@mail.gmail.com>

OK, on the OpenDNS issue - I think this is all smoke and mirrors and I have
yet to see any *empirical* evidence that proves otherwise

How can they possibly be faster than your ISP when traffic *has* to make
more jumps from you to their DNS servers in the first place - you can't take
your ISP out of the loop. It defies common sense and the laws of physics

Tests I have conducted at home and at a friends prove this - pings twice as
high using OpenDNS rather than the ISPs servers - how could it possibly be
otherwise?

Pete
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From luke at sheldrick.co.uk  Wed Oct 29 16:27:35 2008
From: luke at sheldrick.co.uk (Luke Sheldrick)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 16:27:35 +0000
Subject: [Gllug] ADSL providers
In-Reply-To: <52b44d450810290920s6fbdc51fs31d328c587f2a097@mail.gmail.com>
References: <9f8092cc0810280943k647ca924r44a0b0bf63735da@mail.gmail.com>
	<1225216667.4536.72.camel@desktop.config>
	<a2de01dd0810282152l54b8c6e8veea5665eea796706@mail.gmail.com>
	<1225267034.4536.90.camel@desktop.config>
	<20081029104834.GA9747@pgcroft.net>
	<1225280238.4536.110.camel@desktop.config>
	<49086868.2040309@getaroundtoit.co.uk>
	<1225293636.4536.116.camel@desktop.config>
	<52b44d450810290900w3e4c482cq5a892d67de09c484@mail.gmail.com>
	<52b44d450810290920s6fbdc51fs31d328c587f2a097@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20081029162735.GC30277@nas.local>

On Wed, Oct 29, 2008 at 04:20:18PM +0000, Pete Stean wrote:
> OK, on the OpenDNS issue - I think this is all smoke and mirrors and I have yet to see any *empirical* evidence that proves otherwise
> 
> How can they possibly be faster than your ISP when traffic *has* to make more jumps from you to their DNS servers in the first place - you can't take your ISP out of the loop. It defies common sense and the laws of physics
> 
> Tests I have conducted at home and at a friends prove this - pings twice as high using OpenDNS rather than the ISPs servers - how could it possibly be otherwise?
> 
> Pete

It's not all about how quickly you can ping a server... agreed it is a factory. Say you can get to your ISPs cache in 5ms, and oDNS in 10, if your ISP's cache takes 20ms to reply (20+5) and oDNS replies 1ms (1+11), oDNS is faster. In practice I have seen better results with oDNS than local ISPS. oDNS's are setup to provide DNS, and specialise in this. ISPs are jack of all trades, and quite often don't get it all perfect :) 



From farnsaw at stonedoor.com  Wed Oct 29 16:33:18 2008
From: farnsaw at stonedoor.com (Andrew Farnsworth)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 12:33:18 -0400
Subject: [Gllug] ADSL providers
Message-ID: <36522.1225297998@stonedoor.com>



On Wed Oct 29 12:00 , 'Pete Stean' <peteste at googlemail.com> sent:

>I'd also add the fact that BT throttle p2p traffic. It's only during peak times
(evenings) but annoying none the less - even though I have a connection that
maxes out at 600kbps down, after 6pm torrents for example won't go above about
100kbps total (and often much less than that), no matter how many seeders/peers a
file has...

Interesting,
  I voluntarily throttle my P2P from the hours of 4pm - 8pm every night as this
is a feature of the software I use.

Andy

From marcus at fatbeehive.com  Wed Oct 29 16:38:06 2008
From: marcus at fatbeehive.com (Marcus Taylor)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 16:38:06 +0000
Subject: [Gllug] ADSL providers
In-Reply-To: <52b44d450810290920s6fbdc51fs31d328c587f2a097@mail.gmail.com>
References: <9f8092cc0810280943k647ca924r44a0b0bf63735da@mail.gmail.com>
	<1225216667.4536.72.camel@desktop.config>
	<a2de01dd0810282152l54b8c6e8veea5665eea796706@mail.gmail.com>
	<1225267034.4536.90.camel@desktop.config>
	<20081029104834.GA9747@pgcroft.net>
	<1225280238.4536.110.camel@desktop.config>
	<49086868.2040309@getaroundtoit.co.uk>
	<1225293636.4536.116.camel@desktop.config>
	<52b44d450810290900w3e4c482cq5a892d67de09c484@mail.gmail.com>
	<52b44d450810290920s6fbdc51fs31d328c587f2a097@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20081029163806.72d43a38@bart>

On Wed, 29 Oct 2008 16:20:18 +0000
"Pete Stean" <peteste at googlemail.com> wrote:

> OK, on the OpenDNS issue - I think this is all smoke and mirrors and
> I have yet to see any *empirical* evidence that proves otherwise

http://www.watchingthenet.com/how-to-determine-who-is-faster-isp-dns-or-opendns-servers.html

> How can they possibly be faster than your ISP when traffic *has* to
> make more jumps from you to their DNS servers in the first place -
> you can't take your ISP out of the loop. It defies common sense and
> the laws of physics

There is more than just how long it's takes to get to a server and talk
to it - some servers can be quite slow when in conversation. I have
little doubt that the DNS servers at OpenDns are more efficient and
possibly faster than most ISPs' DNS servers when you actually get to
talk to them.

> Tests I have conducted at home and at a friends prove this - pings
> twice as high using OpenDNS rather than the ISPs servers - how could
> it possibly be otherwise?

You probably should time actual DNS lookups and compare - and at many
times of the day - true your ISP may still be faster.......

As always different people will get different results.

-- 
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
|     Marcus Taylor     |                            Tel: 0207 7398704 |
+-----------------------+                 Email: marcus at fatbeehive.com
| | Systems Administrator |               Web:
http://www.fatbeehive.com | |    Fat Beehive Ltd    | 2nd Floor, 59
Rivington St, London, EC2a 3QQ |
+-----------------------+----------------------------------------------+

From john at sinodun.org.uk  Wed Oct 29 17:07:16 2008
From: john at sinodun.org.uk (John Winters)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 17:07:16 +0000
Subject: [Gllug] ADSL providers
In-Reply-To: <a2de01dd0810290616h7580292chb7f9350dcd236278@mail.gmail.com>
References: <9f8092cc0810280943k647ca924r44a0b0bf63735da@mail.gmail.com>	<1225216667.4536.72.camel@desktop.config>	<a2de01dd0810282152l54b8c6e8veea5665eea796706@mail.gmail.com>	<1225267034.4536.90.camel@desktop.config>	<a2de01dd0810290109t606da3d8j4ade4cce446fec03@mail.gmail.com>	<1225280009.4536.106.camel@desktop.config>
	<a2de01dd0810290616h7580292chb7f9350dcd236278@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49089844.3080301@sinodun.org.uk>

Peter Childs wrote:
> Well who then? and why can't I find them on Google?
> 
> All I want it a good Internet connection for about 20 Computers 24x7.

Andrews and Arnold

http://aa.nu/

HTH
John

From cehunter at gb-x.org  Wed Oct 29 18:54:04 2008
From: cehunter at gb-x.org (Christopher Hunter)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 18:54:04 +0000
Subject: [Gllug] ADSL providers
In-Reply-To: <49089844.3080301@sinodun.org.uk>
References: <9f8092cc0810280943k647ca924r44a0b0bf63735da@mail.gmail.com>
	<1225216667.4536.72.camel@desktop.config>
	<a2de01dd0810282152l54b8c6e8veea5665eea796706@mail.gmail.com>
	<1225267034.4536.90.camel@desktop.config>
	<a2de01dd0810290109t606da3d8j4ade4cce446fec03@mail.gmail.com>
	<1225280009.4536.106.camel@desktop.config>
	<a2de01dd0810290616h7580292chb7f9350dcd236278@mail.gmail.com>
	<49089844.3080301@sinodun.org.uk>
Message-ID: <1225306444.4536.118.camel@desktop.config>

On Wed, 2008-10-29 at 17:07 +0000, John Winters wrote:
> Peter Childs wrote:

> > All I want it a good Internet connection for about 20 Computers 24x7.
> 
> Andrews and Arnold
> 
> http://aa.nu/

Seconded.  They're excellent.

Chris


From matthew.king at monnsta.net  Thu Oct 30 09:30:32 2008
From: matthew.king at monnsta.net (Matthew King)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 09:30:32 +0000
Subject: [Gllug] [ot] unsolicited mail from LPI-UK
In-Reply-To: <20081029102543.GA26356@phaistos.bruce> (Bruce Richardson's
	message of "Wed\, 29 Oct 2008 10\:25\:43 +0000")
References: <49071DDA.6050504@hinterlands.org>
	<20081028152800.GB23204@phaistos.bruce>
	<20081028161935.GC6457@pgcroft.net>
	<20081029102543.GA26356@phaistos.bruce>
Message-ID: <20081030093032.F0003581D8@knight.monnsta.net>

Bruce Richardson <itsbruce at workshy.org> writes:

> On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 04:19:38PM +0000, Lesley wrote:
>> Well they certainly weren't there this year.
>> 
>> Has anyone drawn any benefit from the LPI certification scheme?  If so,
>> how did it help you?
>
> -- 
> Bruce
>
> I unfortunately do not know how to turn cheese into gold.

Good sigmonster. Have a biscuit.

Matthew

-- 
I must take issue with the term "a mere child", for it has been my
invariable experience that the company of a mere child is infinitely
preferable to that of a mere adult.
                                           --  Fran Lebowitz

From hpsekhon at googlemail.com  Thu Oct 30 09:46:07 2008
From: hpsekhon at googlemail.com (Hari Sekhon)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 09:46:07 +0000
Subject: [Gllug] [ot] unsolicited mail from LPI-UK
In-Reply-To: <20081028161935.GC6457@pgcroft.net>
References: <49071DDA.6050504@hinterlands.org>	<20081028152800.GB23204@phaistos.bruce>
	<20081028161935.GC6457@pgcroft.net>
Message-ID: <4909825F.8070501@googlemail.com>

Lesley Binks wrote:
> On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 03:28:00PM +0000, Bruce Richardson wrote:
>   
>> On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 02:12:42PM +0000, Martin wrote:
>>     
>>> LPI-UK subscribed my personal email address to their UK "alumni" list 
>>> and have used it to send UCE.
>>>
>>> I'm wondering if any other GLLUG members also got this message.  I'm 
>>> currently awaiting a reply with an explanation as to how they got hold 
>>> of my address.
>>>       
>> Well, I did but then I took several of their exams, so I'm hardly
>> surprised by this.  They used an old address which would have been
>> current when I signed up.
>>
>> LPI were offering free LPIC-1 tests at one of the London expos, about 7
>> years ago.  Did you sit one of those?
>>     
> Well they certainly weren't there this year.
>   
Are you talking about the "Linux" Expo this year?

LPI were there but they weren't doing exams, I spoke to one of their 
guys about skipping LPI1 and going straight to 2 or 3, but then there 
don't seem to be many books around for LPI 2/3 either....

One of the few people who bothered turning up this year... but that is a 
separate thread.

-h

-- 
Hari Sekhon
Always open to interesting opportunities
http://www.linkedin.com/in/harisekhon


From lesleyb at herlug.org.uk  Thu Oct 30 10:23:31 2008
From: lesleyb at herlug.org.uk (lesleyb at herlug.org.uk)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 10:23:31 +0000
Subject: [Gllug] [ot] unsolicited mail from LPI-UK
In-Reply-To: <4909825F.8070501@googlemail.com>
References: <49071DDA.6050504@hinterlands.org>
	<20081028152800.GB23204@phaistos.bruce>
	<20081028161935.GC6457@pgcroft.net>
	<4909825F.8070501@googlemail.com>
Message-ID: <20081030102331.GA13015@pgcroft.net>

On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 09:46:07AM +0000, Hari Sekhon wrote:
> Lesley Binks wrote:
> > On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 03:28:00PM +0000, Bruce Richardson wrote:
> >   
> >> On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 02:12:42PM +0000, Martin wrote:
> >>     
> >>> LPI-UK subscribed my personal email address to their UK "alumni" list 
> >>> and have used it to send UCE.
> >>>
> >>> I'm wondering if any other GLLUG members also got this message.  I'm 
> >>> currently awaiting a reply with an explanation as to how they got hold 
> >>> of my address.
> >>>       
> >> Well, I did but then I took several of their exams, so I'm hardly
> >> surprised by this.  They used an old address which would have been
> >> current when I signed up.
> >>
> >> LPI were offering free LPIC-1 tests at one of the London expos, about 7
> >> years ago.  Did you sit one of those?
> >>     
> > Well they certainly weren't there this year.
> >   
> Are you talking about the "Linux" Expo this year?
> 
> LPI were there but they weren't doing exams, I spoke to one of their 
> guys about skipping LPI1 and going straight to 2 or 3, but then there 
> don't seem to be many books around for LPI 2/3 either....
> 
> One of the few people who bothered turning up this year... but that is a 
> separate thread.
> 
I must have missed them :| I was there Saturday afternoon. 
Oh well would have been useful to have a chat 

Regards
Lesley

From mail-lists at karan.org  Thu Oct 30 10:59:59 2008
From: mail-lists at karan.org (Karanbir Singh)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 10:59:59 +0000
Subject: [Gllug] ADSL providers
In-Reply-To: <1225306444.4536.118.camel@desktop.config>
References: <9f8092cc0810280943k647ca924r44a0b0bf63735da@mail.gmail.com>	<1225216667.4536.72.camel@desktop.config>	<a2de01dd0810282152l54b8c6e8veea5665eea796706@mail.gmail.com>	<1225267034.4536.90.camel@desktop.config>	<a2de01dd0810290109t606da3d8j4ade4cce446fec03@mail.gmail.com>	<1225280009.4536.106.camel@desktop.config>	<a2de01dd0810290616h7580292chb7f9350dcd236278@mail.gmail.com>	<49089844.3080301@sinodun.org.uk>
	<1225306444.4536.118.camel@desktop.config>
Message-ID: <490993AF.3000003@karan.org>

Christopher Hunter wrote:
>>> All I want it a good Internet connection for about 20 Computers 24x7.
>> Andrews and Arnold
>>
>> http://aa.nu/
> 
> Seconded.  They're excellent.

Thirded, and they do native ipv6 !

( not that I use them anymore, sold my soul and moved to bethere and 
14mbps adsl2 a few years back )


-- 
Karanbir Singh : http://www.karan.org/  : 2522219 at icq

From avismailinglistaccount at googlemail.com  Thu Oct 30 11:17:59 2008
From: avismailinglistaccount at googlemail.com (Avi Greenbury)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 11:17:59 +0000
Subject: [Gllug] Anyone want some Toner for a Canon CLC500?
Message-ID: <490997E7.6000104@gmail.com>

We've got a magenta cartridge for the above printer here that's destined 
for the bin unless anyone wants it?

600g of Magenta.

We're in SE1, but I'm willing to drop it off anywhere that's on a 
reasonable route from here to Barnet, or bring it to a gllug meet if I 
ever get round to turning up...

-- 
Avi Greenbury :)

From itsbruce at workshy.org  Thu Oct 30 12:59:44 2008
From: itsbruce at workshy.org (Bruce Richardson)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 12:59:44 +0000
Subject: [Gllug] [ot] unsolicited mail from LPI-UK
In-Reply-To: <49083D5C.8090609@googlemail.com>
References: <49071DDA.6050504@hinterlands.org>
	<20081028152800.GB23204@phaistos.bruce>
	<20081028161935.GC6457@pgcroft.net>
	<20081029102543.GA26356@phaistos.bruce>
	<49083D5C.8090609@googlemail.com>
Message-ID: <20081030125944.GA30903@phaistos.bruce>

On Wed, Oct 29, 2008 at 10:39:24AM +0000, Hari wrote:
> 
> Could you elaborate on the irrational prejudices against Linux 
> certifications out there?

You can sometimes seem them being expressed on this list, when the issue
of certs is raised.  It starts with the view that certs don't prove much
(or anything, possibly) about a person's skills by themselves (true but
it depends on the cert to an extent) but extends to suspicion of the
person who has the certification.  The thinking seems to be: "Certs are
useless, only experience counts, so why did they bother?  Are they
trying to create a false impression of skill via a useless piece of
paper?"  The irony is that this thinking can lead to somebody being
rejected before they reach the interview stage, denying them the chance
to show what skills they do have.

It may well be true that some of the standardised certs for commercial
Linux distributions are no more proof of real skill than the MSCE's the
world is drowning in, but I know people with exceptional talents who
take such tests regularly to test themselves and to add to their CVs.  I
also know people who would be less likely to invite them to interview,
purely because of the certs.  Obviously I think the former are brighter
than the latter, but it does mean I would think carefully about the kind
of place I was applying to before I included Linux certs on my CV.

-- 
Bruce

Remember you're a Womble.
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From hpsekhon at googlemail.com  Thu Oct 30 13:10:54 2008
From: hpsekhon at googlemail.com (Hari Sekhon)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 13:10:54 +0000
Subject: [Gllug] [ot] unsolicited mail from LPI-UK
In-Reply-To: <20081030125944.GA30903@phaistos.bruce>
References: <49071DDA.6050504@hinterlands.org>	<20081028152800.GB23204@phaistos.bruce>	<20081028161935.GC6457@pgcroft.net>	<20081029102543.GA26356@phaistos.bruce>	<49083D5C.8090609@googlemail.com>
	<20081030125944.GA30903@phaistos.bruce>
Message-ID: <4909B25E.40404@googlemail.com>

Bruce Richardson wrote:
> On Wed, Oct 29, 2008 at 10:39:24AM +0000, Hari wrote:
>   
>> Could you elaborate on the irrational prejudices against Linux 
>> certifications out there?
>>     
>
> You can sometimes seem them being expressed on this list, when the issue
> of certs is raised.  It starts with the view that certs don't prove much
> (or anything, possibly) about a person's skills by themselves (true but
> it depends on the cert to an extent) but extends to suspicion of the
> person who has the certification.  The thinking seems to be: "Certs are
> useless, only experience counts, so why did they bother?  Are they
> trying to create a false impression of skill via a useless piece of
> paper?"  The irony is that this thinking can lead to somebody being
> rejected before they reach the interview stage, denying them the chance
> to show what skills they do have.
>
> It may well be true that some of the standardised certs for commercial
> Linux distributions are no more proof of real skill than the MSCE's the
> world is drowning in, but I know people with exceptional talents who
> take such tests regularly to test themselves and to add to their CVs.  I
> also know people who would be less likely to invite them to interview,
> purely because of the certs.  Obviously I think the former are brighter
> than the latter, but it does mean I would think carefully about the kind
> of place I was applying to before I included Linux certs on my CV.
>   
Interesting. How about simply putting the certs on the CV, then 
forgetting about the clueless employers who would make such decisions 
without evaluating skills? (which is what it's all about)

Surely if you are clued up, you'd be happier working for a clued up 
employer? (or at least an employer who thinks the same way)

-h

-- 
Hari Sekhon
Always open to interesting opportunities
http://www.linkedin.com/in/harisekhon


From roger.whittaker at gmail.com  Thu Oct 30 13:15:43 2008
From: roger.whittaker at gmail.com (Roger Whittaker)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 13:15:43 +0000
Subject: [Gllug] [ot] unsolicited mail from LPI-UK
In-Reply-To: <4909825F.8070501@googlemail.com>
References: <49071DDA.6050504@hinterlands.org>
	<20081028152800.GB23204@phaistos.bruce>
	<20081028161935.GC6457@pgcroft.net> <4909825F.8070501@googlemail.com>
Message-ID: <18b20d490810300615tc1469efje88f00c4ff37ed5f@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 9:46 AM, Hari Sekhon <hpsekhon at googlemail.com> wrote:

[...]
> LPI were there but they weren't doing exams,
[...]

That was really Linux IT under the LPI banner.


-- 
Roger Whittaker

From itsbruce at workshy.org  Thu Oct 30 13:38:17 2008
From: itsbruce at workshy.org (Bruce Richardson)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 13:38:17 +0000
Subject: [Gllug] [ot] unsolicited mail from LPI-UK
In-Reply-To: <4909B25E.40404@googlemail.com>
References: <49071DDA.6050504@hinterlands.org>
	<20081028152800.GB23204@phaistos.bruce>
	<20081028161935.GC6457@pgcroft.net>
	<20081029102543.GA26356@phaistos.bruce>
	<49083D5C.8090609@googlemail.com>
	<20081030125944.GA30903@phaistos.bruce>
	<4909B25E.40404@googlemail.com>
Message-ID: <20081030133817.GA31058@phaistos.bruce>

On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 01:10:54PM +0000, Hari wrote:
> Interesting. How about simply putting the certs on the CV, then 
> forgetting about the clueless employers who would make such decisions 
> without evaluating skills? (which is what it's all about)
> 
> Surely if you are clued up, you'd be happier working for a clued up 
> employer? (or at least an employer who thinks the same way)

Often, some of the people who influence the hiring process are not
people you will ever work with or for.  Why risk letting an asshole who
would be irrelevent to the job stop you from getting it?

The gap between the hiring/personnel process and the actual workplace is
a huge chasm in some organisations.  There is some very interesting work
being done by interesting people in places with layers of crap upper
management and personnel departments.

-- 
Bruce

Hierophant: someone who remembers, when you are on the way down,
everything you did to them on the way up.
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From mintywalker at gmail.com  Thu Oct 30 19:06:00 2008
From: mintywalker at gmail.com (Minty)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 19:06:00 +0000
Subject: [Gllug] ADSL providers
In-Reply-To: <49086868.2040309@getaroundtoit.co.uk>
References: <9f8092cc0810280943k647ca924r44a0b0bf63735da@mail.gmail.com>
	<1225216667.4536.72.camel@desktop.config>
	<a2de01dd0810282152l54b8c6e8veea5665eea796706@mail.gmail.com>
	<1225267034.4536.90.camel@desktop.config>
	<20081029104834.GA9747@pgcroft.net>
	<1225280238.4536.110.camel@desktop.config>
	<49086868.2040309@getaroundtoit.co.uk>
Message-ID: <e1868cfe0810301206p645e0ab9qb730baaed8eea464@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Oct 29, 2008 at 1:43 PM, David L Neil Mailing list a/c
<GLLUG at getaroundtoit.co.uk> wrote:
> Christopher Hunter wrote:
>> Generally OK, though their "support" is a bit variable.  I've had the
>> occasional issue with their DNS, but they've mostly been OK.  As with
> ...
>
> I read about OpenDNS (http://www.opendns.com/homenetwork/solutions) and
[snip]
> If anyone has more good/bad comment on their service, I'll be interested
> to hear...

I use them and find them very very good.

But be aware they proxy all your www.google.co[m|.uk] searches

http://blog.opendns.com/2007/05/22/google-turns-the-page/

"The solution to this problem was to route Google requests through a
machine we run to check if the request is a typo or one of your
shortcuts."

I believe if you register with them you can turn the feature off to
some degree, although I've never registered, so I could be wrong.

From jjllmmss at googlemail.com  Thu Oct 30 20:26:06 2008
From: jjllmmss at googlemail.com (Jose Luis Martinez)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 20:26:06 +0000
Subject: [Gllug] [ot] unsolicited mail from LPI-UK
In-Reply-To: <20081030133817.GA31058@phaistos.bruce>
References: <49071DDA.6050504@hinterlands.org>
	<20081028152800.GB23204@phaistos.bruce>
	<20081028161935.GC6457@pgcroft.net>
	<20081029102543.GA26356@phaistos.bruce>
	<49083D5C.8090609@googlemail.com>
	<20081030125944.GA30903@phaistos.bruce>
	<4909B25E.40404@googlemail.com>
	<20081030133817.GA31058@phaistos.bruce>
Message-ID: <d6736b830810301326k1617f56akd18b6b4c9eaaf369@mail.gmail.com>

2008/10/30 Bruce Richardson <itsbruce at workshy.org>:
> On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 01:10:54PM +0000, Hari wrote:
>> Interesting. How about simply putting the certs on the CV, then
>> forgetting about the clueless employers who would make such decisions
>> without evaluating skills? (which is what it's all about)
>>
>> Surely if you are clued up, you'd be happier working for a clued up
>> employer? (or at least an employer who thinks the same way)
>
> Often, some of the people who influence the hiring process are not
> people you will ever work with or for.  Why risk letting an asshole who
> would be irrelevent to the job stop you from getting it?
>
> The gap between the hiring/personnel process and the actual workplace is
> a huge chasm in some organisations.  There is some very interesting work
> being done by interesting people in places with layers of crap upper
> management and personnel departments.

It really surprises me that we should be agonizing about this.

I get certifications because that shows I am trying to keep up to date.

If there are people out there that take that against you I could not
care less. I have heard people that dump CVs because you have been too
long in a company and others that do the same if you seem to be
changing jobs too often.

So since I can't  please everybody I just put on my CV what I see as
positives and am glad when some other people agree with me.

No need for much soul searching frankly.


>
> --
> Bruce
>
> Hierophant: someone who remembers, when you are on the way down,
> everything you did to them on the way up.
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux)
>
> iD8DBQFJCbjJtkVqYTMBSwERAiGpAKCXQ98rCx3Pq2DTO0H5pkNSY8nUAgCgnbiP
> wH29uLXO29Z2sv748dPf8ak=
> =HFBA
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
> --
> Gllug mailing list  -  Gllug at gllug.org.uk
> http://lists.gllug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/gllug
>
>

From hearnsj at googlemail.com  Fri Oct 31 09:10:06 2008
From: hearnsj at googlemail.com (John Hearns)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 09:10:06 +0000
Subject: [Gllug] Formula 1 - brazilian Grand Prix
Message-ID: <9f8092cc0810310210h3952ae56rbcf997d2023b057f@mail.gmail.com>

I think most of you will have seen in the media that Lewis Hamilton enters
the final Grand Prix this year
at Interlagos in Brazil seven points ahead.
His rival is Felipe Massa, driving for Ferrari in his home country.

So who are you going to support? Maybe you like Ferrari? Let me help you
decide - Scuderia Ferrari
recently signed an agreement to use Windows HPC:
http://www.computerweekly.com/Articles/2008/10/17/232725/ferrari-takes-windows-hpc-server-for-a-spin.htm

So you know what to do - get yourself next to a television in a bar or at
home. Coverage on ITV starts at 4pm
with the race buildup, race starts at 5pm GMT.

You know what to do - cheer on Lewis Hamilton in the Vodafone McLaren
Mercedes car.
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From jjllmmss at googlemail.com  Fri Oct 31 10:33:33 2008
From: jjllmmss at googlemail.com (Jose Luis Martinez)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 10:33:33 +0000
Subject: [Gllug] Formula 1 - brazilian Grand Prix
In-Reply-To: <9f8092cc0810310210h3952ae56rbcf997d2023b057f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <9f8092cc0810310210h3952ae56rbcf997d2023b057f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <d6736b830810310333s6f60fca1n1be962ff826db4b8@mail.gmail.com>

2008/10/31 John Hearns <hearnsj at googlemail.com>:
<snip>
>
> You know what to do - cheer on Lewis Hamilton in the Vodafone McLaren
> Mercedes car.


McLaren, based in Woking, used to use Solaris, I wonder what they may
be using now. They paid peanuts btw, so I will not be cheering much
for them ...

From lesleyb at herlug.org.uk  Fri Oct 31 11:06:11 2008
From: lesleyb at herlug.org.uk (lesleyb at herlug.org.uk)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 11:06:11 +0000
Subject: [Gllug] Formula 1 - brazilian Grand Prix
In-Reply-To: <9f8092cc0810310210h3952ae56rbcf997d2023b057f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <9f8092cc0810310210h3952ae56rbcf997d2023b057f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20081031110611.GA13559@pgcroft.net>

On Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 09:10:06AM +0000, John Hearns wrote:
> I think most of you will have seen in the media that Lewis Hamilton enters
> the final Grand Prix this year
> at Interlagos in Brazil seven points ahead.
> His rival is Felipe Massa, driving for Ferrari in his home country.
> 
> So who are you going to support? Maybe you like Ferrari? Let me help you
> decide - Scuderia Ferrari
> recently signed an agreement to use Windows HPC:
> http://www.computerweekly.com/Articles/2008/10/17/232725/ferrari-takes-windows-hpc-server-for-a-spin.htm
> 
> So you know what to do - get yourself next to a television in a bar or at
> home. Coverage on ITV starts at 4pm
> with the race buildup, race starts at 5pm GMT.
> 
> You know what to do - cheer on Lewis Hamilton in the Vodafone McLaren
> Mercedes car.

But are Vodie McLaren using *nix?



From hearnsj at googlemail.com  Fri Oct 31 11:10:16 2008
From: hearnsj at googlemail.com (John Hearns)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 11:10:16 +0000
Subject: [Gllug] Formula 1 - brazilian Grand Prix
In-Reply-To: <d6736b830810310333s6f60fca1n1be962ff826db4b8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <9f8092cc0810310210h3952ae56rbcf997d2023b057f@mail.gmail.com>
	<d6736b830810310333s6f60fca1n1be962ff826db4b8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9f8092cc0810310410g4c4f11c5uae1d85fa152ab3cd@mail.gmail.com>

2008/10/31 Jose Luis Martinez jjllmmss at googlemail.com
>
> McLaren, based in Woking, used to use Solaris, I wonder what they may
> be using now.


Penguins, Lots and lots of penguins. They are of course paid in fish, not
peanuts.
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From hearnsj at googlemail.com  Fri Oct 31 11:12:06 2008
From: hearnsj at googlemail.com (John Hearns)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 11:12:06 +0000
Subject: [Gllug] Formula 1 - brazilian Grand Prix
In-Reply-To: <20081031110611.GA13559@pgcroft.net>
References: <9f8092cc0810310210h3952ae56rbcf997d2023b057f@mail.gmail.com>
	<20081031110611.GA13559@pgcroft.net>
Message-ID: <9f8092cc0810310412u297c37aeo731f6ea5af90f32f@mail.gmail.com>

2008/10/31 <lesleyb at herlug.org.uk>

>
> But are Vodie McLaren using *nix?
>
>
You know who to support. Get those Tuxes lined up in front of the TV.
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From sarah at thaum.net  Fri Oct 31 13:50:23 2008
From: sarah at thaum.net (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Sarah_Lemari=E9?=)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 13:50:23 +0000
Subject: [Gllug] Formula 1 - brazilian Grand Prix
In-Reply-To: <9f8092cc0810310412u297c37aeo731f6ea5af90f32f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <9f8092cc0810310210h3952ae56rbcf997d2023b057f@mail.gmail.com>
	<20081031110611.GA13559@pgcroft.net>
	<9f8092cc0810310412u297c37aeo731f6ea5af90f32f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <61ab47cd0810310650r495d9506j17793ca20a4a3d92@mail.gmail.com>

Don't worry John, Lewis shall be getting my undivided attention along
with as many Tuxes as I can unearth in the house.

Will anyone be on #gllug for the event?

Not sure my support helps to be honest - had seats right at the
chicane in Japan where Massa left Lewis pointing in the wrong
direction...great view of a terrible turn of events :\

Sarah.

From cehunter at gb-x.org  Fri Oct 31 13:57:02 2008
From: cehunter at gb-x.org (Christopher Hunter)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 13:57:02 +0000
Subject: [Gllug] Formula 1 - brazilian Grand Prix
In-Reply-To: <20081031110611.GA13559@pgcroft.net>
References: <9f8092cc0810310210h3952ae56rbcf997d2023b057f@mail.gmail.com>
	<20081031110611.GA13559@pgcroft.net>
Message-ID: <1225461423.7308.3.camel@unknown-00-11-11-5d-9e-5a.config>

On Fri, 2008-10-31 at 11:06 +0000, lesleyb at herlug.org.uk wrote:

> But are Vodie McLaren using *nix?

Friend of mine did a telemetry project for them a couple of years ago.
At the time, their servers were RH and desktops were Suse.

C.


From chrisbell at overview.demon.co.uk  Fri Oct 31 13:59:38 2008
From: chrisbell at overview.demon.co.uk (Chris Bell)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 13:59:38 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [Gllug] Future GLLUG meetings
Message-ID: <Marcel-1.53-1031135938-84fhjSf@riscpc.localdomain>

Hello,
   There has been some discussion about how many meetings should be planned,
and what kind of meetings are likely to be well attended. Organising a
meeting does take some time and effort. There have been some obvious gaps in
the past, and actual attendance has been variable. Many people who subscribe
to the distribution lists are remote from London, and are unlikely to be
able to attend.
   Choices include talks and practical sessions, whether both
should be arranged for the same meeting, possibly preventing attendance at
both, and whether evening or weekend meetings are preferred (sometimes
speakers are only in the area and able to give a talk for a limited period,
so options are limited).
   Documentation was less easy to find in the early days of GLLUG. Do we
still need a mix of talks aimed at both advanced specialist subjects and
general talks for new users? Do we have a high proportion of new users, and
is this likely to increase?


-- 
Chris Bell NEW alternative address: chrisbell at chrisbell.org.uk
www.overview.demon.co.uk
Microsoft sells you Windows ... Linux gives you the whole house.


From joel at fysh.org  Fri Oct 31 14:01:57 2008
From: joel at fysh.org (Joel Bernstein)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 14:01:57 +0000
Subject: [Gllug] Formula 1 - brazilian Grand Prix
In-Reply-To: <9f8092cc0810310210h3952ae56rbcf997d2023b057f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <9f8092cc0810310210h3952ae56rbcf997d2023b057f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <893ec6980810310701x1d09d6e9j419948f7838e48e1@mail.gmail.com>

2008/10/31 John Hearns <hearnsj at googlemail.com>

> You know what to do - cheer on Lewis Hamilton in the Vodafone McLaren
> Mercedes car.


Is he more/less likely to win this pointless sporting event if I watch, let
alone cheer the poor sod?

/joel
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From gllug at eco.li  Fri Oct 31 15:15:30 2008
From: gllug at eco.li (Dan Kolb)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 15:15:30 +0000
Subject: [Gllug] Formula 1 - brazilian Grand Prix
In-Reply-To: <61ab47cd0810310650r495d9506j17793ca20a4a3d92@mail.gmail.com>
References: <9f8092cc0810310210h3952ae56rbcf997d2023b057f@mail.gmail.com>
	<20081031110611.GA13559@pgcroft.net>
	<9f8092cc0810310412u297c37aeo731f6ea5af90f32f@mail.gmail.com>
	<61ab47cd0810310650r495d9506j17793ca20a4a3d92@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20081031151530.GK7492@hades.eco.li>

On Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 01:50:23PM +0000, Sarah Lemari? wrote:
> Don't worry John, Lewis shall be getting my undivided attention along
> with as many Tuxes as I can unearth in the house.
> 
> Will anyone be on #gllug for the event?

Oh, undoubtedly. Whether or not they're going to be watching TV at the same
time is another matter :)

Dan
-- 
Love at first sight is one of the greatest labor-saving devices the
world has ever seen.

From hpsekhon at googlemail.com  Fri Oct 31 16:56:40 2008
From: hpsekhon at googlemail.com (Hari Sekhon)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 16:56:40 +0000
Subject: [Gllug] Future GLLUG meetings
In-Reply-To: <Marcel-1.53-1031135938-84fhjSf@riscpc.localdomain>
References: <Marcel-1.53-1031135938-84fhjSf@riscpc.localdomain>
Message-ID: <490B38C8.30308@googlemail.com>

Chris Bell wrote:
> Hello,
>    There has been some discussion about how many meetings should be planned,
> and what kind of meetings are likely to be well attended. Organising a
> meeting does take some time and effort. There have been some obvious gaps in
> the past, and actual attendance has been variable. Many people who subscribe
> to the distribution lists are remote from London, and are unlikely to be
> able to attend.
>    Choices include talks and practical sessions, whether both
> should be arranged for the same meeting, possibly preventing attendance at
> both, and whether evening or weekend meetings are preferred (sometimes
> speakers are only in the area and able to give a talk for a limited period,
> so options are limited).
>    Documentation was less easy to find in the early days of GLLUG. Do we
> still need a mix of talks aimed at both advanced specialist subjects and
> general talks for new users? Do we have a high proportion of new users, and
> is this likely to increase?
>   
Professional's view:

As a linux sysadmin, I vote for the advanced stuff, especially 
high-availability clustering, high performance computing. 
parallel/clustered/distributed filesystems etc.
This stuff is interesting and there general knowledge on it yet.
If you want to learn how to click yes/no in Ubuntu, surely there are as 
many tutorials on the web on that as there Ubuntu noobies?

As for weekend vs evening: if you work in Central London but live in the 
suburbs (as is common among I believe) then it's easier to get to the 
Central London meeting locations in the evenings if you are already 
uptown for work, rather than having the full long journey at the weekends?

-h

-- 
Hari Sekhon
Always open to interesting opportunities
http://www.linkedin.com/in/harisekhon


From caroline.ford.work at googlemail.com  Fri Oct 31 16:59:52 2008
From: caroline.ford.work at googlemail.com (Caroline Ford)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 16:59:52 +0000
Subject: [Gllug] Future GLLUG meetings
In-Reply-To: <490B38C8.30308@googlemail.com>
References: <Marcel-1.53-1031135938-84fhjSf@riscpc.localdomain>
	<490B38C8.30308@googlemail.com>
Message-ID: <cbc01cde0810310959m644196e4ye1896058384bb8be@mail.gmail.com>

> As a linux sysadmin, I vote for the advanced stuff, especially
> high-availability clustering, high performance computing.
> parallel/clustered/distributed filesystems etc.
> This stuff is interesting and there general knowledge on it yet.
> If you want to learn how to click yes/no in Ubuntu, surely there are as
> many tutorials on the web on that as there Ubuntu noobies?
>
> As for weekend vs evening: if you work in Central London but live in the
> suburbs (as is common among I believe) then it's easier to get to the
> Central London meeting locations in the evenings if you are already
> uptown for work, rather than having the full long journey at the weekends?

As a non sysadmin I am totally uninterested in such events. I'd only
comer to general stuff on FLOSS/desktop stuff. Specialist stuff for
sysadmins would bore the pants off me.

caroline

From gllug at eco.li  Fri Oct 31 17:00:41 2008
From: gllug at eco.li (Dan Kolb)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 17:00:41 +0000
Subject: [Gllug] Future GLLUG meetings
In-Reply-To: <490B38C8.30308@googlemail.com>
References: <Marcel-1.53-1031135938-84fhjSf@riscpc.localdomain>
	<490B38C8.30308@googlemail.com>
Message-ID: <20081031170041.GL7492@hades.eco.li>

On Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 04:56:40PM +0000, Hari Sekhon wrote:
> 
> As for weekend vs evening: if you work in Central London but live in the 
> suburbs (as is common among I believe) then it's easier to get to the 
> Central London meeting locations in the evenings if you are already 
> uptown for work, rather than having the full long journey at the weekends?

Saturdays, though, allow for a longer session. So it's possible to get three or
four talks in one day, possibly even on related subjects.

Dan
-- 
In the long run, every program becomes rococo, and then rubble.
		-- Alan Perlis

From hpsekhon at googlemail.com  Fri Oct 31 17:02:45 2008
From: hpsekhon at googlemail.com (Hari Sekhon)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 17:02:45 +0000
Subject: [Gllug] Future GLLUG meetings
In-Reply-To: <cbc01cde0810310959m644196e4ye1896058384bb8be@mail.gmail.com>
References: <Marcel-1.53-1031135938-84fhjSf@riscpc.localdomain>	<490B38C8.30308@googlemail.com>
	<cbc01cde0810310959m644196e4ye1896058384bb8be@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <490B3A35.1080709@googlemail.com>

Caroline Ford wrote:
>> As a linux sysadmin, I vote for the advanced stuff, especially
>> high-availability clustering, high performance computing.
>> parallel/clustered/distributed filesystems etc.
>> This stuff is interesting and there general knowledge on it yet.
>> If you want to learn how to click yes/no in Ubuntu, surely there are as
>> many tutorials on the web on that as there Ubuntu noobies?
>>
>> As for weekend vs evening: if you work in Central London but live in the
>> suburbs (as is common among I believe) then it's easier to get to the
>> Central London meeting locations in the evenings if you are already
>> uptown for work, rather than having the full long journey at the weekends?
>>     
>
> As a non sysadmin I am totally uninterested in such events. I'd only
> comer to general stuff on FLOSS/desktop stuff. Specialist stuff for
> sysadmins would bore the pants off me.
>
> caroline
>   
So the question becomes:

Do you cater to one and not the other... or do you cater to both and if 
so, how?

If you cater to both, do you do both sessions at on the same day, 
concurrently or sequentially, or stagger events for each?

-h

-- 
Hari Sekhon
Always open to interesting opportunities
http://www.linkedin.com/in/harisekhon


From addw at phcomp.co.uk  Fri Oct 31 17:39:25 2008
From: addw at phcomp.co.uk (Alain Williams)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 17:39:25 +0000
Subject: [Gllug] Future GLLUG meetings
In-Reply-To: <490B3A35.1080709@googlemail.com>
References: <Marcel-1.53-1031135938-84fhjSf@riscpc.localdomain>
	<490B38C8.30308@googlemail.com>
	<cbc01cde0810310959m644196e4ye1896058384bb8be@mail.gmail.com>
	<490B3A35.1080709@googlemail.com>
Message-ID: <20081031173924.GW4261@mint.phcomp.co.uk>

On Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 05:02:45PM +0000, Hari Sekhon wrote:

> So the question becomes:
> 
> Do you cater to one and not the other... or do you cater to both and if 
> so, how?
> 
> If you cater to both, do you do both sessions at on the same day, 
> concurrently or sequentially, or stagger events for each?

It depends on how many people will turn up. I would suggest running on
different days -- to start with, easier logistics.

There prob ought to be a small survey on the sort of event that people would
be interested in. Those who DO NOT fill the survey in are, ipso facto, prob not
going to be interested in turning up at something.

I note that the UKUUG LISA (Large Installation Systems Administration) event will
be in London in March next year, so prob best to start with a user focussed event.

	http://www.ukuug.org/events/spring2009/


If asked, UKUUG would prob help to sponsor these events. The quid pro quo being that
it would get its name in the publicity and some words at some point encouraging people to
join. I am no longer on council, but could raise it with them -- as could Phil who
will prob read this.

-- 
Alain Williams
Linux/GNU Consultant - Mail systems, Web sites, Networking, Programmer, IT Lecturer.
+44 (0) 787 668 0256  http://www.phcomp.co.uk/
Parliament Hill Computers Ltd. Registration Information: http://www.phcomp.co.uk/contact.php
Past chairman of UKUUG: http://www.ukuug.org/
#include <std_disclaimer.h>

From lesleyb at herlug.org.uk  Fri Oct 31 17:43:57 2008
From: lesleyb at herlug.org.uk (lesleyb at herlug.org.uk)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 17:43:57 +0000
Subject: [Gllug] Future GLLUG meetings
In-Reply-To: <490B38C8.30308@googlemail.com>
References: <Marcel-1.53-1031135938-84fhjSf@riscpc.localdomain>
	<490B38C8.30308@googlemail.com>
Message-ID: <20081031174357.GB13559@pgcroft.net>

On Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 04:56:40PM +0000, Hari Sekhon wrote:
> Chris Bell wrote:
> > Hello,
> >    There has been some discussion about how many meetings should be planned,
> > and what kind of meetings are likely to be well attended. Organising a
> > meeting does take some time and effort. There have been some obvious gaps in
> > the past, and actual attendance has been variable. Many people who subscribe
> > to the distribution lists are remote from London, and are unlikely to be
> > able to attend.
> >    Choices include talks and practical sessions, whether both
> > should be arranged for the same meeting, possibly preventing attendance at
> > both, and whether evening or weekend meetings are preferred (sometimes
> > speakers are only in the area and able to give a talk for a limited period,
> > so options are limited).
> >    Documentation was less easy to find in the early days of GLLUG. Do we
> > still need a mix of talks aimed at both advanced specialist subjects and
> > general talks for new users? Do we have a high proportion of new users, and
> > is this likely to increase?
> >   
> Professional's view:
> 
> As a linux sysadmin, I vote for the advanced stuff, especially 
> high-availability clustering, high performance computing. 
> parallel/clustered/distributed filesystems etc.
> This stuff is interesting and there general knowledge on it yet.
> If you want to learn how to click yes/no in Ubuntu, surely there are as 
> many tutorials on the web on that as there Ubuntu noobies?
> 
> As for weekend vs evening: if you work in Central London but live in the 
> suburbs (as is common among I believe) then it's easier to get to the 
> Central London meeting locations in the evenings if you are already 
> uptown for work, rather than having the full long journey at the weekends?
> 

I would be interested in such talks.  I have never had exposure to these
kind of setups and it would be interesting to find out more about them.

I would have to travel into London whenever the event was on - whether
it is an evening or weekend event is of no signficance to me at the
moment.

However another poster has already said more could be dealt with at the
weekends than in an evening session.  Perhaps a series of evening
sessions on one theme would help counter that.  However, if there is
setup and tear down time to take into account then sometimes there is
more time at the weekend than in the evening.  When I was working it
could be difficult to get away during the week even in the evenings.

What about OpenSource applications - perhaps a series on stuff like the 
GIMP, Inkscape, Blender and other desktop apps ?  Depends if we are
interested in them from a user or developer point of view I guess but it
might be good to see what people can achieve.  I'm almost tempted to
suggest an art competition using Open Source Software.  This isn't
entirely Linux based these days so we might feel it is inappropriate for
a Linux User Group to run such a thing.

Regards

Lesley



From mail-lists at karan.org  Fri Oct 31 18:14:59 2008
From: mail-lists at karan.org (Karanbir Singh)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 18:14:59 +0000
Subject: [Gllug] Future GLLUG meetings
In-Reply-To: <20081031170041.GL7492@hades.eco.li>
References: <Marcel-1.53-1031135938-84fhjSf@riscpc.localdomain>	<490B38C8.30308@googlemail.com>
	<20081031170041.GL7492@hades.eco.li>
Message-ID: <490B4B23.1020906@karan.org>

Dan Kolb wrote:
> Saturdays, though, allow for a longer session. So it's possible to get three or
> four talks in one day, possibly even on related subjects.

yup, Sat is the general 'best day' since that would give people enough 
time to drink some, and food later if they so wish. It also makes it 
easier to get hosting for the event.

Also, I still think its worth the odd Thursday post-work-hours sort of 
meeting for a single 45 min session -> 30 min q&a -> drinks. But we 
should stick to the Saturdays for regular meetings and have these 
Thursday type talks whenever a potential speaker is available.

- KB


From tethys at gmail.com  Fri Oct 31 18:14:01 2008
From: tethys at gmail.com (- Tethys)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 18:14:01 +0000
Subject: [Gllug] Future GLLUG meetings
In-Reply-To: <cbc01cde0810310959m644196e4ye1896058384bb8be@mail.gmail.com>
References: <Marcel-1.53-1031135938-84fhjSf@riscpc.localdomain>
	<490B38C8.30308@googlemail.com>
	<cbc01cde0810310959m644196e4ye1896058384bb8be@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <264d99b00810311114l30b1b012rd41989d24b4382c0@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 4:59 PM, Caroline Ford
<caroline.ford.work at googlemail.com> wrote:

>> As a linux sysadmin, I vote for the advanced stuff, especially
>> high-availability clustering, high performance computing.
>> parallel/clustered/distributed filesystems etc.
>
> As a non sysadmin I am totally uninterested in such events. I'd only
> comer to general stuff on FLOSS/desktop stuff. Specialist stuff for
> sysadmins would bore the pants off me.

As an general purpose geek, I'd happily see talks on both :-)

Tet

-- 
Perl is like vise grips. You can do anything with it but it is the
wrong tool for every job. -- Bruce Eckel

From mblackmore at oxlug.org  Fri Oct 31 20:10:28 2008
From: mblackmore at oxlug.org (M.Blackmore)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 20:10:28 +0000
Subject: [Gllug] USB enabled KVM that works under linux
Message-ID: <1225483828.6416.67.camel@malcolm-desktop-xpc>

Just found out that the kvm no-name I got from Maplins totally fails to
work properly with linux (ubuntu and suse) on the usb front.

I particularly miss the lack of clutter of strings with the cordless
rodent and keyboard, as I am now back to strings.

Anyone had a 3/4 way kvm/usb that will work with cordless mouse and
keyboard stuffed into the usb slot, or in the case of a logitech
cordless, with seperate dongles to make it conventional ps/2 for
keyboard and mouse (that won't work either).